Do Catholics really want to be aligned with MAGA?

[ohce]

…my real question is do Catholics or the Catholic church really want to be aligned with MAGA and Donald Trump?

Yes,

The Democrats will one day remove God from their platform, they tried it recently but just barely got overruled. The abortion issue will seal that vote.

A third party vote for your conscience is just a feel-good thing, it does nothing to help the church reach its goals

Make America great again is just a different way of doing what most liberals want to do anyway.

What is the problem with immigrants coming into the country legally? That is the biblical way. Was trump the first to separate families? I read Obama’s admin did it, was it a human rights issue then?

A conservative court was the best reason to vote for trump the last time and the best reason to vote for him the next time.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

This exactly. Said very well.

 

[pnewton]

A third party vote for your conscience is just a feel-good thing, it does nothing to help the church reach its goals

The goals of the Church of God are not the goals of the Republicans or the Democrats. The Church is not into creation of wealth, or in womanizing. All the poorest and weakest, whether in the womb and unloved, or in this country illegally, are the children of God. The Church teaches more than just abortion, abortion, abortion, and cares about life even after birth. Pro-life encompasses abortion and euthanasia, but also immigration, healthcare, poverty, capital punishment, the environment.

I will always vote my conscience, not to “feel good” as you unfairly state, but because it is my conscience and there is only so far I can go go cooperate with evil, Republican or Democrat. For me, to do otherwise would be cowardly.

 

[poche]

I don’t think that it is an insult to President Trump to point out that there are more visioins to making America great than he has to offer.
I also feel that if you hear the candidates out and you vote for someone other than the one who makes the most sense to you then you are wasting your vote.

 

[blackforest]

Do Catholic’s really want to be aligned with Donald Trump and MAGA?

I can’t find the link, but I remember the USCCB stating that neither political party adequately represents Catholic teaching. I’m therefore more concerned with elected officials aligning with us than vice versa.

To that end, we should avoid “aligning” with anybody; rather, we should vote mindfully, participate as faithful citizens, and pray that our elected officials come to align with our values - e.g. the life and dignity of the human person and the option for the poor and vulnerable

 

[Annie]

I used to think the way you do, but that would only work in a different type of system. We need to work within out system, the one we have.

First, the buck does not really stop with the president, it stops with the Supreme Court.

Second, our elections are winner take all.

I once lived in a state that regularly went for one party. Then my vote would not make much of a difference and I could vote for whomever I wanted. When I moved to a swing state, I learned from someone else that my vote matters more.

In a swing state, if I voted 3rd party, it made a difference. Considering that the president nominates USSC justices, and the buck really stops with them, I really want a certain type of justice (in my case, the kind who rule according to the Constitution, not the kind who rule according to whatever they like).

If I want to see some brakes put on abortion in this country, I need to vote for the person who will nominate USSC justices who will, given the right case and the right arguments, vote against abortion as a right.

If I live in a swing state, that means voting (as a general rule) Republican as opposed to Democrat, since voting for a third party will defeat my purpose.

 

[Annie]

Trump might have given a clue to his vision when he remarked when he remarked he is a nationalist. Nationalism, that is “American First,” is contrary to Catholic teaching, and most Christian teaching, as it contrary to the Golden Rule, which requires us to put the needs of others on equal footing with our own.

Trump called himself a nationalist as opposed to a globalist. This is an important distinction.

He has also said that he expects those from other nations to want to make their own nations great, and to take their own nation’s interests into account.

.

The Golden Rule does not require us to put the needs of others on par with our own. Like the airplane example, sometimes in order to help others, we need to put our own oxygen mask on first. If we are to remain a nation with the capacity to help other nations, then we need to keep ourselves in good shape to do so.

 

[twf]

Look… as I’ve said many times before, I can understand agreeing with Trump’s policies. In the case of abortion, I applaud what he’s done. But to describe him as a “devout Christian”?? … what evidence do you have for that? Decades of his very public life, including his current mannerisms and tweets, are completely at odds with living the life of a devout Christian. He has publicly said that he has never asked God for forgiveness and sees no need to do so. When you praise his pro-life actions, I can agree with that… but this smacks of a cult of personality.

 

[pnewton]

Trump called himself a nationalist as opposed to a globalist. This is an important distinction.

If I am a Nazi as opposed to a Communist, is that an acceptable position?

We live in a more globalized world. We have to act in accord to the whole human family to shape the earthly city in unity and peace. And globalization needs some authority to address the problem of the global common good.

This is not politics. It is Catholic doctrine, and started as far back as Pope Paul VI who saw the world changing, and more recently was outlined in the encyclical Caritas in Veritate. If anyone thinks this aspect of the President’s belief is acceptable, I challenge you to read, or at least scan that encyclical. The president can not be reconciled with Catholic doctrine in this specific area.

 

[Gary1961]

Victoria, rest assured I am following this post. Yes, it’s been a couple days since I’ve responded but I have been at work and don’t have time to sit in front of a computer screen all day. I think I mentioned above that I wouldn’t respond to political rants and I don’t think I have to defend anything as I simply asked a question. Respondents like you are jumping to all kinds of conclusions and making judgments and accusations about my intentions and beliefs. I was even flagged as being personally attacking, impolite, divisive and incendiary. That’s comical to me as I think I simply stated some well known facts (which you call calumny? Are you serious?) and then asked a couple questions. As for a response to the general thread, I will weigh in and respond. I just wanted to take a moment first to encourage you to relax… breath… don’t take yourself so seriously.

 

[Gary1961]

Thank you. And at the risk of re-committing the sin of calumny, I would say very well said.

 

[Gary1961]

We live in a more globalized world. We have to act in accord to the whole human family to shape the earthly city in unity and peace. And globalization needs some authority to address the problem of the global common good.

Thank you pnewton and Annie. The ‘nationalist’ thread further back in this thread and pnewton’s comment get to the heart of the original intent of my post. As I see our culture and political system getting more and more divided, I have to wonder at what point do we as American Catholics stand up and make a united stand (if that is even possible). Hence, the question of where do you draw the line? There have been some very good responses but most have only shown how divided we are as a faith community. When I put myself in the shoes of an outsider, it’s no wonder to me that the Catholic faith comes under attack. Many responses also show how single and narrow minded some people are. Hence, the question of do these kid’s really understand the implications of MAGA? I’m not making a political statement by asking that question. I’m simply asking if kids are being taught to think independently and not believe everything the fake, biased news reports are. Based on some of the responses, I don’t think many respondents think independently… they believe what they want to believe and are their minds are locked shut to anything or anyone that would dare present a different point of view. Our own intolerance and division (as Catholics/Christians) is what hurts the Christian cause more than anything else.

 

[pnewton]

I was even flagged as being personally attacking, impolite, divisive and incendiary. That’s comical to me as I think I simply stated some well known facts

I just re-read the opening post. I cannot image what in it would be seen as offensive. It is mostly questions, and balanced ones at that. Thank you for your patience here and welcome.

 

[ohce]

The goals of the Church of God are not the goals of the Republicans or the Democrats. The Church is not into creation of wealth, or in womanizing. All the poorest and weakest, whether in the womb and unloved, or in this country illegally, are the children of God. The Church teaches more than just abortion, abortion, abortion, and cares about life even after birth. Pro-life encompasses abortion and euthanasia, but also immigration, healthcare, poverty, capital punishment, the environment.

I will always vote my conscience, not to “feel good” as you unfairly state, but because it is my conscience and there is only so far I can go go cooperate with evil, Republican or Democrat. For me, to do otherwise would be cowardly.

Don’t you believe the religious conservatives who back the GOP also care about immigration, healthcare, poverty, capital punishment, the environment?

We want immigrants to enter legally.

We want quality healthcare base on competition, reformed Medicare, clear standards of care and tort reform.

We believe in reducing poverty by putting people to work, not keeping them in poverty by giving them a pittance.

We believe capital punishment is biblical.

We believe in environmental policies that work, not ones that pick winners and make losers. We withdrew from the Paris accord and still are doing better than the countries who are still in it.

If abortion, abortion, abortion isn’t such a big issue why are the Democrats making it such a big issue in their platform? NY just legalized it up until birth.

I do have to agree that sometimes we have to be thankful for the third party vote. If some in Florida didn’t vote 3rd party, Florida could have put a Democrat in the governor’s house. That would not have been good according to Lynda Bell.

“The Florida Governors race is an example of two starkly different candidates,” said Lynda Bell, president of Florida Right to Life. “DeSantis is a solid, pro-life capitalist conservative, while Gillum is a rabidly pro-abortion, socialist. Florida Right to Life believes the DeSantis versus Gillum race is a race between good versus evil! The George Soros backed candidate, Andrew Gillum, wants to undo all of our pro-life work and would set our state back on the path towards death! https://www.nationalrighttolifenews.org/news/2018/09/2018-election-overview-where-will-your-governor-stand-on-abortion/”

 

[Theo520]

You seem to be jumping to conclusions for the costume worn by one teen who attends a Catholic School. It’s only in your head that his hat somehow aligns the Catholic Church with Trump. What if he wore a Dodger’s hat?

But to him personally, he was attending a political event and the party behind the hat is more pro life than the other party. It’s actually a logical choice if you don’t hate all things Trump.

I wish you were more interested in his behavior and how he was treated.

 

[Annie]

If I am a Nazi as opposed to a Communist, is that an acceptable position?

No, because the socialist, authoritarian, materialist, and anti-theist positions of both groups rendered them unacceptable.

However, one could put a New World Order, single government type of globalism at one end of a spectrum and strong isolationism at the other and find that. Trump is more in the middle of the spectrum. He is not at all against international trade, but he is against the US cutting off its nose to suit the desires of other nations, and is against harming the US to the point that the US is unable to help other nations, and against ceding US sovereignty.

He also encourages other nations to do the same for themselves.

. It is Catholic doctrine, and started as far back as Pope Paul VI who saw the world changing, and more recently was outlined in the encyclical Caritas in Veritate

I think a lot of this depends on the definition of globalism.

I’m also not sure what you mean by “it” when you say “it is Catholic doctrine.”

 

[Victoria33]

One doesn’t have to be a fan of MAGA or Trump to stand against abortion and infanticide.

I don’t see where I said one had to be a fan of MAGA or Trump to stand against abortion and infanticide. I said it is better to be aligned with MAGA than some pro-choice side. I just saw this latest and I think it’s unfair. I have heard numerous times Popes condemn abortion. I will not enable abortion no matter how many times, one starts bringing in torture or the death penalty. I said nothing such as a person HAD TO BE ALIGNED WITH TRUMP OR MAGA. I really think it’s inappropriate to respond to things that would be outrageous if one said it.

 

[Gary1961]

I was very glad to see the truth come out that his behavior was not antagonistic as originally claimed; and yes, he was treated poorly as are countless others in everyday life. This has been well documented and thoroughly discussed.

I simply wanted to open a discussion on a side note… the fact that he was wearing a MAGA hat rather than a Dodgers hat. Yes, I jumped to a conclusion that it isn’t as simple as some would like to think; it was merely a souvenir for a trip to Washington, or a costume. As I have said many times already, I wish it was that simple. I see it as possibly something bigger… a teen getting caught up in something he doesn’t understand.

Does he realize that MAGA, being associated with Trump, associates him not only with pro-life but all the rest that Trump stands for (Trump hater or not)? If he is aware of that, then it’s his prerogative to wear whatever he wants and stand for whatever he believes in. If he isn’t aware of that, then I worry about kids (and adults) who aren’t taught to think for themselves and get swept up and believe in something unaware of the deeper realities and implications.

And as I stated in my original post (which has since been censored by CAF moderators), I am concerned about Catholics who vote for and support a man who in every ounce of his being stands for everything Catholicism stands against (avarice, pride, greed, adultery, calumny… which again puts me at risk of being flagged for posting inappropriate messages when I am simply stating facts).

 

[Victoria33]

The Bible was written in the days when at times, a lot of the known-world was under the rule of the Roman Empire and others. One should contemplate what the Bible says:

Titus 3:1-2 ESV /​

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.

There are dozens of quotes from the Bible on leadership.

And the list really goes on and on. I can find negatives on about any president (I don’t consider facts stated as so) and other world leaders, how about Trudeau of Canada? Of Lopez Obrador of Mexico?

I am not judging the President’s character from what a tabloid writes, that is their duty to sell newspapers.

The Bible and perhaps, the Vatican as well, gives plenty of guidance per our leaders. Again, if one is finding all this fault, perhaps their own record should be examined as well. That’s not my business but I don’t think one will convince others of their position unless we know more about an individual.

Hebrews 13:17 ESV /​

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

My apologies if this is not the correct translation of the Bible.

One might say the Bible says this but and that’s fine but it is still worth contemplating.

The President has not gotten us into foreign entanglements, he has brought a measure of peace to the Korean missile crisis, has anyone ever heard a saying “Blessed are the peacemakers”? The president has acted for each of our citizens’ rights to religious liberty.

Romans 13:1-14 ESV /​

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. …

The man has been in the public eye for 40 years even. I don’t know of any convictions, arrests. I do realize there are currently investigations going on of some of his associates.

Again, I’m not going to get my facts from tabloids and hearsay. I’d believe anyone should have more rights than that.

 

[ohce]

I am concerned about Catholics who vote for and support a man who in every ounce of his being stands for everything Catholicism stands against

Do you say the same thing about the people who vote Democrat that support all kinds of things Catholics don’t support? Did you say the same thing about Mr. Obama who put some of the worst programs in place as far as the church goes (forced contraception, gay marriage, transgender bathrooms, identity politics, etc.)

We should not look at what a person has done but at what a person says they will do and hold them to their campaign promises. So far trump is trying to do what he said he would. He is better than most, so far. Mr. Obama brought change. But, was it change that benefitted Jesus’ church?