Do Jews and Muslims pray to the one true God?

[HashemEchad]

Jews and Christians have been arguing over this for about 1,200 years. I’m confident that this thread will definitively set the issue to rest.

Your sarcasm duly noted!

 

[emeraldisle]

I linked to a thorough discussion from the Jewish POV, showing that Yeshayahu 53 does in fact refer to the people of Israel.

I asked you for a reference in the Tanakh that says Israel has done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth,

because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Isaiah 53:9

If you can’t do this then it proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Israel is not the suffering servant in Isaiah 53.

Because Yeshayahu 53 speaks of the suffering servant living to see his physical descendants (going by the original Hebrew of the text.)

Present the evidence and not just your opinion.

.

 

[Valke2]

Jesus committed acts of violence. He used a whip against people in the Temple area. He killed a herd of swine (or caused their deaths). And he had issues with a fig tree.

The Heberw word that you interpret as “violence” means “general injustice” which would include all the above actions that Jesus did. Jesus denies the owner of the swine the rightful use of his property. This would make him ineligiable as the subject of Isaiah 53, via 53:9

Jesus also called for his opponents to be brought before him for execution. (Luke 19:27).

In summation, It is clear from a Jewish perspective that Jesus fails to meet the conditions for suffering servant in the phrase “done no violence.”

(paraphrased and stolen from Jews for Judaism).

 

[planten]

**
Please do not forget the sacrifice of the first born of Abaraham, i.e. his son Ishmael. That was in Arabia near the place now called Makkah. That incident happened before the birth of Issac.

Ishmael was spared for a greater sacrifice by the children of Abraham striving against the infidels in 7th century A.D. Many were killed in the way of Allah. That was a great sacrifice, the ransom for the life of Ishmael.

It was the Muslims who liberated Jaroshlem and set the people free and even opened the gates of the city to the Jews too. That is the words about “the rejoice” mentioned in Isaiah, 52, 53 and 54. Please remember that Isaiah is full of prophecies about the prophet Muhammad.**

 

[Angelos]

Jesus committed acts of violence. He used a whip against people in the Temple area.

Objections in the form of questions:
**1)**Could you please show me the Gospel verse where Jesus is reported to have hit people in the Temple with His whip?

**2)**If Jesus committed act of violence towards the people in the Temple, why did those people NOT hit Him back? Why did those people fail to report Jesus’ supposed violent act to the Roman & Jewish authorities?

He killed a herd of swine (or caused their deaths). And he had issues with a fig tree.

It is ironic that you define the death (murder!) of “impure” animals as a violent act. What actually caused the death of that herd of swine was not Jesus, but the demons that were allowed by Him to enter the animals. This was done so that everyone could see and witness the prior possession of the man in the tombs by demons.

The Heberw word that you interpret as “violence” means “general injustice” which would include all the above actions that Jesus did. Jesus denies the owner of the swine the rightful use of his property. This would make him ineligiable as the subject of Isaiah 53, via 53:9

The owners of the swine did not ask Jesus for compensation! More, those people were Gentiles, who were not under the Mosaic Law.

Jesus also called for his opponents to be brought before him for execution. (Luke 19:27).

This faulty allegation is derived from the deliberate ignorance of the fact that through this parable Jesus refers to the punishment of His opponents on the Day of Judgment. Accordingly, the ones that are supposed to carry out the “act of violence” is NOT Jesus Himself or His disciples, but His Angels!

In summation, It is clear from a Jewish perspective that Jesus fails to meet the conditions for suffering servant in the phrase “done no violence.”

(paraphrased and stolen from Jews for Judaism).

Interestingly, the Suffering Servant in Isaiah only focuses on what that servant does when arrested and punished. Thus, the designation of the phrase Suffering Servant is confined to the reaction of the servant in the hands of His oppressors. Jesus is the Suffering Servant because He surrenders to the passion although He is sinless and is not a criminal.

Thanks for sharing with us what Jews think of the Christian interpretation of Isaiah.

 

[GraceDK]

As I said Grace DK, there have been (Catholics) on this forum who, since I have been here and without any provocation from me, have insulted my religion, my Torah, my God, and tried to convert me, and so I felt it was therefore fair for me to refer to your deity as I honestly see him: a dead Jew. If others can be open, then why can’t I?

It has been very evident the way and when you have said it was not in an errand of peace and recociliation. So too when you said that Paul endorses lying as a missionary tool… that is such a misunderstanding and you ought to be ashamed for spreading such a lie that is inconsistent with the whole Christian Bible.

He was a Jew, and he died. I didn’t state anything that is false when I said that. Until recently, I didn’t even think he really existed.

See… you did not even think he existed. Thats my point too… you say the Christians dont give you a chance, yet I have met Jews who cared not to know even the basics about Christianity… I even met one who called my Lord a bastard to my face… he did not know me at all… I was at the wailing wall and he invited me to shabbath and I told him: alright, but you should know that I am a Christian. If you wonder what I replied back in the face of such slander: nothing… I could not believe he actually said that. I met another one who said the swastiga was a Christian cross… Thats what he had been taught. I had to explain to him that its indeed an ancient buddhist symbol, used by a man named Hitler who loathed Christianity and thought it a religion for the weak.

Its as if we Jews can never win. Christians refuse to see it from our perspective. Even when we try to keep to ourselves, Christians come after us to proselytize us, and when we justly try to repel the effort, WE become the bad guys, the blasphemers, etc. The only way Christians will be happy is if we convert, the way they want us to. And some Jews did in medieval times, just to get the Christians off their back with their Inquisitions and auto da fe’s and expulsions.

Thats not true HE. You see you make us out to be the bad guys all the time… you just cant see it. But why dont you come into the present time… you keep talking about the middle ages… But today Christians all over the world pray for Israel and for Jewish peace and prosperity… But you dont want to see that. I met hundreds of young people in Israel who used their own money and human resourses to help the Israeli children, elderly and handicapped… If you say that no one wants to see things from your side, then I will say: no Jew on here wants to see anything from the Christian side. But I take it for what it is: This is a debate board. In the real world, Christians and Jews work together and have friendships and look from each others perspective every day… you know that. You are trying to paint up this giant wall… but the wall is in your self.

But I would no more believe in Jesus as I would Buddha, Krishna or any other nonJewish deity. And I feel more firmly that way now than when I first found this forum by accident.

Maybe so, but that does not change that you were settled from the very beginning when you came here. You did not come to receive Him as your Messiah, and thats fine… However, you cannot judge a truth solely by a few sinners on an internet forum. In fact… I have since long decided I wanted to dig into Maimonides writings next… I am about to have finished my half year of studies in Jewish Christian relations in the middle ages (there are both good and bad stories in case you noticed and yes, I did read Jewish authors too)… but if I were to dismiss every Jewish writer because I have found you HE rude and condescending then that would not be fair to myself or to other Jews… or even to the things I might learn from these Jewish books. I fail to think that you actually read Christian books, but if you ever do, I’d love to direct you to a few.

(Incidentally, we have a friend staying at our home this week who comes from a Catholic background originally, but who became an Orthodox Jew a number of years ago. I let him read some of these comments, and the one question he had for me was, “Is she a convert to Catholicism?” (referring to you)

See… this is one more thing. Since I met you you have numerous times mentioned your family and friends who have fallen away from Christianity… yet you claim that you are not triumphalistic…
Its really the one thing that stands between you and me… you wont admit to anything… you only see your self as a haunted prey.
As for me… What I am and am not is not really of interest. The thing that you will notice with many people here is that they have sometime in their life become aware of their faith and have or have not joined another strand of Christianity as a consequence of their quest for truth… as for you, I reckon the same goes for you. However… your friend must know something about converts… since he is one himself. By the way… I also know a woman who became a Jew although she claimed she had once been a Christian. If I tried to convert her back to accepting Jesus you would, according to your own principles, have to say that is alright.

I didn’t know, so I researched some of your older posts and sure enough, he was right!

Yeah… but I dont think you know what that means for me personally to be a once liberal protestant and now a conservative Catholic… or maybe you indeed do (actually I have a few orthodox friends in real life and I find that I understand them and vioce versa even more than with certain of my christian friends). However, if you wanted to know, why did you not ask? You should not go through the job of researching and wasting your time like that when you could just ask…

You are right… we probably wont get anywhere you and me. In my own work for unity I advocate two concepts: that we pray together… and that we admit to our own faults in front of one another. Those two elements of religious reconciliation are beyond what you will do with… someone who … might as well worship a creature with five heads…

 

[Angelos]

**
Please do not forget the sacrifice of the first born of Abaraham, i.e. his son Ishmael. That was in Arabia near the place now called Makkah. That incident happened before the birth of Issac.**

Reference from the Islamic scripture please?

**
Ishmael was spared for a greater sacrifice by the children of Abraham striving against the infidels in 7th century A.D. Many were killed in the way of Allah. That was a great sacrifice, the ransom for the life of Ishmael.**

Reference from the Islamic scripture please?

**
It was the Muslims who liberated Jaroshlem and set the people free and even opened the gates of the city to the Jews too. That is the words about “the rejoice” mentioned in Isaiah, 52, 53 and 54. Please remember that Isaiah is full of prophecies about the prophet Muhammad.**

Now it is only Muslims who are trying to capture Jerusalem and wipe Israel off the world map!

Isaiah condemns false prophets, one of which is Mohammad.

 

[Valke2]

Objections in the form of questions:
**1)**Could you please show me the Gospel verse where Jesus is reported to have hit people in the Temple with His whip?

Matt. 21:12:
Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13"It is written," he said to them, " ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’[a] but you are making it a 'den of robbers

Mark 11:15: On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves,16and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.

Luke 19:45: Then he entered the temple area and began driving out those who were selling.

All this implies the use of a whip. Especially:

John 2:15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

It is ironic that you define the death (murder!) of “impure” animals as a violent act. What actually caused the death of that herd of swine was not Jesus, but the demons that were allowed by Him to enter the animals. This was done so that everyone could see and witness the prior possession of the man in the tombs by demons.

Not relevant to the issue of the meaning of Isaiah 53:9

Interestingly, the Suffering Servant in Isaiah only focuses on what that servant does when arrested and punished. Thus, the designation of the phrase Suffering Servant is confined to the reaction of the servant in the hands of His oppressors.

If this is correct, then of course Israel fits the description.

for sharing with us what Jews think of the Christian interpretation of Isaiah.

No problem.

 

[planten]

Reference from the Islamic scripture please?

** No need. It will open a new chapter. Just believe or ask any Muslim please**.

Reference from the Islamic scripture please?

** Reply is same as above. read Quran and ask any Muslim please.**

Now it is only Muslims who are trying to capture Jerusalem and wipe Israel off the world map!
**That is a political matter, I do not indulge in. The Jews have got control of Jerusalem. The christians had lost control on it (forever) for the last 1400 years. The Muslims have lost control over it now. The Jews are the fit people to have that whole area. So they have it. God is not unjust or blind.

The Muslims are trying to fight back for their selfish needs. It is not any religious duty that they are performing. It is not possible for the so called muslims to gain control over that holy land now. Unless they reform and return to God. In that case they should be peaceful and forget about land matters any way. **.

Isaiah condemns false prophets, one of which is Mohammad.

That is a false statement from you. It is nothing from God Almighty. It is your wishful thinking, your ill desires.

 

[HashemEchad]

Jesus committed acts of violence. He used a whip against people in the Temple area. He killed a herd of swine (or caused their deaths). And he had issues with a fig tree.

The Heberw word that you interpret as “violence” means “general injustice” which would include all the above actions that Jesus did. Jesus denies the owner of the swine the rightful use of his property. This would make him ineligiable as the subject of Isaiah 53, via 53:9

Jesus also called for his opponents to be brought before him for execution. (Luke 19:27).

In summation, It is clear from a Jewish perspective that Jesus fails to meet the conditions for suffering servant in the phrase “done no violence.”

(paraphrased and stolen from Jews for Judaism).

I was just about to post all of those (esp. his parable from Lk 19), but I see you beat me to it!

I explained that the Hebrew word used in Is. 53 for ‘seed’ means physical descendants, but yet we see no evidence that Jesus had physical descendants.

Interestingly, there is a book by a Catholic woman (Migene Gonzalez-Wippler), called “Jesus and the Mystical Kabbalah”…she makes the same argument I do: that Is. 53 cannot refer to Jesus unless he had physical descendants (which she believes he did, but that is another story). She believe he had physical ancestors, and that he was not divine. She said that is the only way Is. 53 can apply to him, and also the law that the Messiah must be physically descended from King David (which, as we all know, Joseph was, but not Jesus…unless Joseph was his actual father.)

 

[HashemEchad]

Interestingly, the Suffering Servant in Isaiah only focuses on what that servant does when arrested and punished. Thus, the designation of the phrase Suffering Servant is confined to the reaction of the servant in the hands of His oppressors. Jesus is the Suffering Servant because He surrenders to the passion although He is sinless and is not a criminal.

Thanks for sharing with us what Jews think of the Christian interpretation of Isaiah.

Yes, that is correct! And why are Jews so often perceived as passive in the face of their tormentors, as mostly all Jews were during the Nazi genocide?

In fact, nonreligious Jews often disparaged religious Jews during the Nazi genocide, claiming they were “weak, passive, did not fight back, went as sheep to the slaughter”…without realizing it, they applied the very passage in Is. 53 to the very people it DOES speak of!

I used to get very annoyed with secular Jews (mostly of my father’s generation) who would disparage religious Jews for that…until I read Is. 53 and saw the clear evidence of it!

 

[HashemEchad]

GraceDK: Christianity has had a VERY long ignominious history as it pertains to the Jews. Jews who are very aware of Jewish history would never even consider converting to Christianity, not when so many of our people—including some of my mother’s ancestors—were forced to be baptized just to save their very lives.

And I often hear from Christians, “But those people who did that, they were ‘not real Christians’”. All I can say to that is, There sure must be a lot of ‘not real Christians’ around!

The country you hail from, Denmark, did a remarkable thing during WW2. The entire nation got together and rescued the Danish Jews, saving them from the Nazis. Denmark was and is a liberal Protestant country. Perhaps because they were liberal churchmen, they did not let any triumphalistic replacement theological beliefs get in their way of rescuing Jews. I really don’t know what the outcome would have been had your country been primarily conservative Catholics or fundamentalist Protestants. I have found in my studies that of the Catholics who did rescue Jews, mostly all were Catholics of a liberal/ecumenical bent (such as Padre Ruffino of Assisi, who after the war, worked in Jewish-Catholic ecumenism efforts, not conversionary efforts.)

So you see, I judge “real Christians” by how they treat others, even when there is no chance of conversion on the part of those being helped. Jews (and Muslims, I’m sure) tend not to trust evangelically-minded Christians, because we know that they help us with the hope we will convert. Liberal Christians do not help us for those reasons, so we tend to trust their motives more.

 

[GraceDK]

Okay HE… Hang on here… this is important.

GraceDK: Christianity has had a VERY long ignominious history as it pertains to the Jews. Jews who are very aware of Jewish history would never even consider converting to Christianity, not when so many of our people—including some of my mother’s ancestors—were forced to be baptized just to save their very lives.

Just like I say to everyone else who wants to test a message: “go back to the sources”. Jesus was handed over to the romans by the Pharisees… They were Jews… that does not mean I blame all Jews for that. Today many people say that Israel is a barbaric country… yet if they were to judge Judaism on that I would say its not quite fair. Even your own Scripture reproaches the Jewish people for having gone through periods of apostasy, idolatry and harshness … but that takes nothing away from the Lord, the God of Israel nor from His truth. So too… when you study the message of Christ… go to the sources… Read about Jesus in order to understand how so many of us love Him and believe in Him. He is better than all of us… We are but sinners. If you tell me I am a moron then thats fine by me… I have no illusions about my self… my religion has freed me from the hypocricy of that.
I say the same to people who slander Islam… lets not look at the moslems but at their sacred books to see if their actions are sanctioned therein.
Violence is not sanctioned by the New Testament… on the contrary. I am deeply sorry about your ancestors. I know that in many cases forced baptism has occured… However, the papal bulls such as Sicut Judæis that are foundational of all mideval papal policy regarding the Jews said that people who forced Jews into baptism should be excommunicated… It was an absolute law that such things must not happen… BUT… could the pope control everyone?.. could he control a whole society and thousands and thousands of glergymen whom, some of them were ill disposed towards the Jews?.. Mostly however, as you will know, Jews appealed to the Pope… they knew he was under some principles in Christian teaching so when they were persecuted and forced and maltreated by secular rulers they sought help from the pope… and he did help … but often he did not have the power to do much and only heard about the problems afterwards. There has also been popes who were harsh against the Jews in the way they spoke about them, but Jew’s right to live and exist was always believed by the Church… and its important to realise that the same harshness with which the Christians spoke about the Jews… the same harshness ruled in Jewish mouths about Christians… If Jews had been the rulers over Christians… would the history then have looked different and better??? Think about it HE. Already a few years after Jesus death Stefanus was stoned to death… and he was only the first who was martyred…

And I often hear from Christians, “But those people who did that, they were ‘not real Christians’”. All I can say to that is, There sure must be a lot of ‘not real Christians’ around!

Is the Orthodox Jew that killed Rabin a real Jew? Sure… but he had some misconceptions about God’s will for people. So too with Christian Europe in the middleages… Yes there has been persecutions and hard ones… it was sin and humanity that showed its face… Thats excatly why Jesus had to die… for the sins of everyone… for Israel that killed its prophets as well as for the Church that could not handle power…
the devil is busy as always.

The country you hail from, Denmark, did a remarkable thing during WW2. The entire nation got together and rescued the Danish Jews, saving them from the Nazis. Denmark was and is a liberal Protestant country. Perhaps because they were liberal churchmen, they did not let any triumphalistic replacement theological beliefs get in their way of rescuing Jews. I really don’t know what the outcome would have been had your country been primarily conservative Catholics or fundamentalist Protestants. I have found in my studies that of the Catholics who did rescue Jews, mostly all were Catholics of a liberal/ecumenical bent (such as Padre Ruffino of Assisi, who after the war, worked in Jewish-Catholic ecumenism efforts, not conversionary efforts.)

Actually… our most honored martyr here was a conservative pastor who was shoot dead by the Nazis one night because he preached against nazism from his pulpit. And you should know and not claim ignorance: during 2.W.W the Danish people were much more aware of their Christianity than they are today… They understood themselves as Christians. Today they are secularists or liberal… and the most liberal ones, while dishonouring the Christian roots in this country, also are pro-palestinian and dont believe in any of the promises God gave to Israel. So your analysis is somewhat biased and ignorant… beware lest you make history appear in a way you prefer it instead of how it is…
As for me I have heard that 1/3 of all Polish priests died in the camps… those that were liberal would not die for the truth… I have also heard the story of several highranking men in the Vatican, clergy who saved thousands of lives… But I dare say you are not studied in these things and that your knowlege is rather selective.
Let me ask you something though… Who was Chief rabbi Zolli?

**So you see, I judge “real Christians” by how they treat others, even when there is no chance of conversion on the part of those being helped. Jews (and Muslims, I’m sure) tend not to trust evangelically-minded Christians, because we know that they help us with the hope we will convert. Liberal Christians do not help us for those reasons, so we tend to trust their motives more. **

Look HE… I wont say you are wrong on that. We sure do hope that you will receive Yeshua as your Messiah all of you and we believe it will happen… but not by our weak activities… what we do is mainly to pray… We know that God himself is the only one who can change hearts and minds. There are people who come to Israel also thinking of it as a pilgrimage while they help the Israelis. Then there are people who have no Christinity - and you are right… they wont try to convert the Jews - they are there to party and have fun and get a experience while they “realise themselves”… they will look at your customs with a distance, go drink at your bars and sleep with Jewish boys and girls who too are liberal… … and I tend to think that Christians who come to Israel do less damage than those but of course that is a matter of taste…

 

[HashemEchad]

GraceDK: I need to clarify one thing. Not all Jews are zionists. I most certainly am not one, in fact I am anti-zionist. Please do not make the mistake so many Gentiles (and even Jews) make, that just because one is a Jew they are zionist.

Zionism is a very antiTorah movement that was begun by antireligious secularized Jews. Anything pertaining to zionism or their state has no bearing on me or my life at all.

For more info see jewsagainstzionism.com

As for Israel Zoller (his real name), Catholics have dragged him out to me many times on this forum, and I have answered it many times.

Zoller was a Galician (not Italian) Jew, who emigrated to Italy from Galicia, changed his name ot “Zolli” to fit in, and applied for the position of chief rabbi. He was given the job, and when the Italian Jews were being rounded up by the Nazis, he HID IN THE VATICAN. Instead of doing what Jewish rabbis are supposed to do, which is stand by his people, he HID and did not try to help them.

After the war, he had the nerve to reapply for his job from the Italian Jews who survived the war. They naturally refused to have anything to do with him, and so out of sheer spite he converted to Catholicism.

Why else did he insist on making his conversion so public? He wanted to insult the Italian Jews who did not want to give him his job back.

His daughter Miriam was found to be sorely lacking in Jewish education and knowledge, when interviewed by a reporter at the time of his conversion…she also ended up converting as well.

Before Catholics try to parade Zoller around as some sort of prize catch, they really need to research the whole story.

He used your church to get back at his people; what in Judaism is termed a “meshumad le’hakhis”, or ‘convert for spite’.

We respect genuine converts more than someone like that.

For more info, see some of my previous posts about Zoller, or get the book written during the time when all this was going on:

“A Chief Rabbi of Rome Becomes A Catholic” by Louis I. Newman (Renascence Press, NY, c 1945)

 

[Angelos]

Matt. 21:12:
Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13"It is written," he said to them, " ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’[a] but you are making it a 'den of robbers

Mark 11:15: On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves,16and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.

Luke 19:45: Then he entered the temple area and began driving out those who were selling.

All this implies the use of a whip. Especially:

John 2:15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

Thanks for posting all those verses from the Gospels, but your references fail to prove the allegation that Jesus attacked or hit the people in the temple with the whip in His hand!

Besides, Jesus acted that way (violent in your words) because He gave priority to GOD rather than humans who went against His commandment about the sanctity of the Temple. Jesus was angry with the money changers and vendors in the Temple area because God wanted Him to do so as He surrendered to crucifixion only because God wanted Him to do so.

The taking of another person’s property without their permission and causing the death of animals are both seperate acts of violence, as that term is used in Isaiah 53:9.

You mean that Jesus cannot be the suffering servant defined in Isaiah only because He revealed His authority by saving a human possessed by demons and letting evil spirits enter a herd of swines?

Let me repeat: It was not Jesus who caused the death of the swine, but evil spirits. Your play on words is a dangerous one that might present even GOD as a deceiver because God is reported in the Bible to have allowed a lying spirit to deceive all of His prophets save Jeremiah! God allows deception, but does not deceive!

Not relevant to the issue of the meaning of Isaiah 53:9

The examples you have derived from the Gospels against the Christian depiction of Jesus as the suffering servant are not relevant to Isaiah 53 either.

If this is correct, then of course Israel fits the description.

Israel cannot save herself or atone for her sins by obeying her opressors.

 

[Angelos]

Yes, that is correct! And why are Jews so often perceived as passive in the face of their tormentors, as mostly all Jews were during the Nazi genocide?

In fact, nonreligious Jews often disparaged religious Jews during the Nazi genocide, claiming they were “weak, passive, did not fight back, went as sheep to the slaughter”…without realizing it, they applied the very passage in Is. 53 to the very people it DOES speak of!

I used to get very annoyed with secular Jews (mostly of my father’s generation) who would disparage religious Jews for that…until I read Is. 53 and saw the clear evidence of it!

So you mean that Isaiah referred to diaspora Jews living in Germany under Hitler’s regime? Who or what gave them the authority to bear the sins of all Jews and bestow on them the grace of salvation?

 

[GraceDK]

GraceDK: I need to clarify one thing. Not all Jews are zionists. I most certainly am not one, in fact I am anti-zionist. Please do not make the mistake so many Gentiles (and even Jews) make, that just because one is a Jew they are zionist.

So… you dont think God is in it at all… bringing Jews back to Israel? Gotta give it to you here… you are the first Jew I meet who says that… but I also only lived in Jerusalem where they certainly believe Israel is their country and they have a right to be there. They are not extreme all of them as you know… but they certainly think God is working in history.

Zionism is a very antiTorah movement that was begun by antireligious secularized Jews. Anything pertaining to zionism or their state has no bearing on me or my life at all.

Okay… well, of course you realise that the orthodox Jews in Israel believe that the restoration of Israel is a divine miracle… These people are not anti-torah. They are serious Jews…

**For more info see jewsagainstzionism.com
As for Israel Zoller (his real name), Catholics have dragged him out to me many times on this forum, and I have answered it many times.
Zoller was a Galician (not Italian) Jew, who emigrated to Italy from Galicia, changed his name ot “Zolli” to fit in, and applied for the position of chief rabbi. He was given the job, and when the Italian Jews were being rounded up by the Nazis, he HID IN THE VATICAN. Instead of doing what Jewish rabbis are supposed to do, which is stand by his people, he HID and did not try to help them.
After the war, he had the nerve to reapply for his job from the Italian Jews who survived the war. They naturally refused to have anything to do with him, and so out of sheer spite he converted to Catholicism.**Why else did he insist on making his conversion so public? He wanted to insult the Italian Jews who did not want to give him his job back.
His daughter Miriam was found to be sorely lacking in Jewish education and knowledge, when interviewed by a reporter at the time of his conversion…she also ended up converting as well.
Before Catholics try to parade Zoller around as some sort of prize catch, they really need to research the whole story.

With all due respect HE… but this version of the story seems to just fit too well into the rest of your ideas… We have both read a book about Zoller… mine had autobiographical stuff in it… testimony by the man himself. You think that because something is written in 1945 it has to be true…(indeed I find the year even suspicious because its published NewYork… this man could hardly have had time to research… but maybe he did not need to in order to write his book ) it might as well resemble the person who wrote it… and I can see numorous reasons why the Jews would welcome such slander written by another man instead of going to Zoller himself for an explanation about the miracles that happend to him.
I have read the book by a Jewish Catholic name Roy Shoeman: “Salvation is from the Jews”… However… I will do more research-… why would I not? I have nothing to loose. I wonder if you will do the same… or maybe your book from 45 is the only source that supports the story you want to believe?

He used your church to get back at his people; what in Judaism is termed a “meshumad le’hakhis”, or ‘convert for spite’.
We respect genuine converts more than someone like that.

Oh HE… for you there are no genuine converts… You have already made that clear. I expect that if I pointed you to some you would always dig out something that would be wrong with them.

 

[Angelos]

No need. It will open a new chapter. Just believe or ask any Muslim please

This is another way of saying that “no verse in the Koran supports my assertions.”

Reply is same as above. read Quran and ask any Muslim please.

Most of the Muslims know that the Koran mistakenly presents Isaac and Jacob as Abraham’s two sons, respectively. Ishmael is suddenly made Abraham’s offspring in the Islamic scripture at the end of Mecca period.

That is a political matter, I do not indulge in. The Jews have got control of Jerusalem. The christians had lost control on it (forever) for the last 1400 years. The Muslims have lost control over it now. The Jews are the fit people to have that whole area. So they have it. God is not unjust or blind.

If you make political statements, you are inevitably going to get political statements in return.

I suggest you share your peaceful theories about Jews and their rights to keep control of Jerusalem with your religious leaders (just trying to help you from being lynched!)

The Muslims are trying to fight back for their selfish needs. It is not any religious duty that they are performing. It is not possible for the so called muslims to gain control over that holy land now. Unless they reform and return to God. In that case they should be peaceful and forget about land matters any way.

Why did Mohammad need to fabricate the story of Miraj as sth happened in Jerusalem then? Why do Muslims consider Jerusalem as the third holiest place in Islam after Mecca and Madina???

That is a false statement from you. It is nothing from God Almighty. It is your wishful thinking, your ill desires.

This statement about my statement is a false statement from you. It is nothing from God almighty. It is your wishful thinking, your ill desires

Planten, despite our disagreements, I like you Peace and blessings!

 

[catharina]

Most of the above posts should have been in an entirely different thread.

Re this: Do Jews and Moslems pray to the one true God?

Yes. Christians, Jews and Moslems worship the one true God.

 

[HashemEchad]

So you mean that Isaiah referred to diaspora Jews living in Germany under Hitler’s regime? Who or what gave them the authority to bear the sins of all Jews and bestow on them the grace of salvation?

Why do you find that hard to believe? Wasn’t Isaiah a prophet? Don’t prophets foretell the future?

Who gave them authority to bear the sins of all Jews (of their generation)? Jewish teaching did.

You see, Judaism teaches that sometimes, God chooses certain righteous Jews to bear the sins of the rest of their generation (note, this does not mean they bear the sins of ALL Jews or ALL people of ALL time, but only those of their specific generation.)

This is probably where the early Christians (being of Jewish origin) got their idea from, of Jesus supposedly “bearing the sins of the world”…except that in Jewish teaching, the suffering servant(s) do not bear the sins of ALL people of ALL time (as Christians claim Jesus does), but only all the Jews of THAT generation.

If you want to learn more about this, see Derech Hashem by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto.