Do Muslims pray to the same God as Catholics or not?

[ReaderT]

but there’s no other God to pray to.

Were the Baal worshippers praying to God also?

 

[WanderingPilgrim]

Yes, more inclusive. Truth needs to be inclusive. Now we have a pope saying that God wills a plurality of religions.

“Don’t be so open-minded that your brains fall out.” ~G.K. Chesterton

 

[ReaderT]

Let’s have an actual citation of what the man said so we can judge it in context.
[/quote]

Document on “Human Fraternity for World Peace and Living Together” signed by Pope Francis and Grand Imam Ahamad al-Tayyib

“Freedom is a right of every person: each individual enjoys the freedom of belief, thought, expression and action. The pluralism and the diversity of religions, colour, sex, race and language are willed by God in His wisdom, through which He created human beings. This divine wisdom is the source from which the right to freedom of belief and the freedom to be different derives.”

At the very least, it’s badly worded and too vague.

 

[WanderingPilgrim]

That doesn’t change the meaning. He’s suggesting that God wills the plurality or religions on the same level that He willed a diversity in the human person. It suggests that just as God created different ethnicities and races, He indirectly created all the various religions. I know it’s a taboo word, but it’s heresy, plain and simple.

 

[Swordsman]

I would not attempt a nutshell answer to the very complicated question asked by the OP. But I will share an observation.

It’s helpful to keep in mind the past, or roots of various religions when pondering such things. A Catholic might say one can’t “blame” God for differences between the Catholic Church and Lutheran theology, since Lutheranism began in the 1500s. Same for other Protestant sects, that have begun in 1650, 1740, 1890, etc. In other words, they all “broke off” of the Church started by Jesus of Nazareth.

Islam is not an ancient religion with its beginning before recorded history, like Hinduism for instance. Islam is a religion with very clear beginnings around 700 AD, with very clear signs of having taken elements from Judaism and Christianity mixed them with several new doctrines. From one perspective, it ought to be understood as a Christian heresy; great thinkers such as Hilaire Belloc described it this way.

In a way, the only religion that can make a claim of having no recent, identifiable starting point is Hinduism, with origins perhaps thousands of years before Judaism.

Be well.

 

[upant]

The Qur’an is quite clear that Jews and Christians who believe in God, and who do righteous works, will be admitted to Heaven. The same is true for Muslims.

what about these verses, how do you reconcile them with what you wrote?

“O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.” S. 5:51

Those who say, “Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary,” have certainly fallen into disbelief. The Messiah ˹himself˺ said, “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah—my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever associates others with Allah ˹in worship˺ will surely be forbidden Paradise by Allah. Their home will be the Fire. And the wrongdoers will have no helpers. S. 5:72

Those who say, “Allah is one in a Trinity,” have certainly fallen into disbelief. There is only One God. If they do not stop saying this, those who disbelieve among them will be afflicted with a painful punishment. S. 5:73

 

[Rozellelily]

And the BBC seems unable to talk about Islam without putting her on the panel.

I wonder if her (external) beauty also has something to do with it?
This might sound controversial, but I feel often they look for some sort of “beautiful poster child”, to try to change the “image and branding” of the religion. Sort of saying in a way, this religion, and it’s followers don’t have to look/act like what the western public typically associate with it?

Perhaps this is wrong to say, but occasionally I have wondered if there is even an element of narcissism to some of these female conversions.
(I am referring solely to certain individuals who have converted to Islam and not referring to women born into Muslim families).
For example, there is this youtuber in her 20’s here (Australia) who converted to Islam, and she goes around filming with a camera in full niqab to the local Bunnings (huge hardware stores, similar size to USA walmart), to see how people react.
I am not doubting or judging anyone’s sincerity in their beliefs, but at the same time it’s almost like if you convert to Islam as a female, you then get this whole new identity as a “muslim woman”, and your whole life, world view, and everyday focus can be framed around whether you receive (perceived) discrimination, how people think of you and react to you, how people respond to your “visual” modesty, whether you were victimised (regardless of whether truly or from misperception), etc.
It can become like an identity. Whereas, if you are Catholic it’s just “life as usual”, so to speak…perhaps even perceived as a bit boring?
Maybe Islam seems more exciting that Christianity to some degree to some on a subconscious level?

Also notice the absence of logic and reason.

When it comes to religion, is logic and reason good or bad?
Not just with Islam, but with Christianity also. For example a concept like the Holy Trinity, if we try to understand it with reason it probably won’t make sense.
I think a lot of Muslims reject the concept of God as a trinity, because it’s so hard to grasp with the human mind.

@LilyM

Donald Trump is, but we can see they are talking about the same person and not a different one.

This is true, and if was just a case of human perception that would make sense. But because we talking about God, why would He want to lead two “groups” to two different ways?
Someone has to be right when there is a contradiction, (about Christ), but it doesn’t look like Muslims “are in a hurry” to change their beliefs, and likewise for Christians.
God being omnipotent and existing outside of time, knows in advance all this would happen, so…?

The Quran clearly states ‘Those who say, “Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary,” have certainly fallen into disbelief’, while the Bible states the opposite. So even if both worship the same one God but see Him differently (like with Trump), why would God himself allow this -polar opposite beliefs - to happen if God is not a God of confusion?

 

[Rozellelily]

Also, when people become religious as a “psychological crutch”, is this good or unhealthy?
I am asking not solely in the context of Islam, but also in the context of Christianity.
For example, I have heard in passing some people say that God filled a hole in their heart.
I must admit though that I don’t really understand what that means.

 

[Rozellelily]

From one perspective, it ought to be understood as a Christian heresy; great thinkers such as Hilaire Belloc described it this way.

If that is the case, but all others have died out but Islam for some reason flourished.

 

[Niblo]

If that is the case, but all others have died out but Islam for some reason flourished.

The reason is simple…Muslims believe it.

By the way, you mention the niqāb (earlier post). As you know, this is the face veil. It is not a requirement of Islam, but is cultural. Worn by puritan women, in the main.

The hijab - head covering - is required. The garment is something of a fashion statement among young Muslim women! You will be familiar with portraits of Mary. She is wearing a form of hijab.

Have a great day.

 

[Rozellelily]

@Niblo

The requirement of hijab itself is also debatable amongst Muslims. Many many Muslim women from my background do not wear Hijab and dress exactly the same as Catholic and Orthodox women (with hair out).
Also, there are many Turkish Muslim women who don’t wear it. My neighbours are Turkish and they don’t wear a hijab.
Same story for some women in Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and elsewhere.
(I am referring to everyday dressing, not how dress when go inside a Mosque).

I have no issue with the hijab, but I am aware that Muslims debate whether they believe “draw their khimār over their bosoms…” refers to just the chest area being covered generally, or refers to something must be covering the hair.

Either way, I leave that discussion to Muslims.

 

[Niblo]

Indeed. My daughter (in-law) wears the hijab when it is required, as does her mum (who, being old) is not required to. My daughter’s aunt (in her 50s, I guess) never wears the hijab. It’s up to the conscience of the individual; and certainly not a matter for me!

 

[Kaninchen]

Also, there are many Turkish Muslim women who don’t wear it.

Netflix has some rather good Turkish TV series and that’s very obvious in the big cities! When there are story shifts into the countryside, things are more ‘conservative’ but still pretty colourful.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

It suggests that just as God created different ethnicities and races, He indirectly created all the various religions.

Who can know the will of God?

The Jews are God’s chosen people.
Christians are chosen by Christ.
In Islam, Allah chooses whom he wills.

 

[WanderingPilgrim]

Yet Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism so Catholics are God’s chosen people now.

 

[Swordsman]

Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Mormons, Quakers, Calvinists, Arians, have all "died out?’

No offense but, are you kidding? There are an estimated 20,000 sects that in some way claim connection to the God of the Old Testament, Jesus Christ, or both, and that number is climbing.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I wonder if her (external) beauty also has something to do with it?
This might sound controversial, but I feel often they look for some sort of “beautiful poster child”, to try to change the “image and branding” of the religion. Sort of saying in a way, this religion, and it’s followers don’t have to look/act like what the western public typically associate with it?

I won’t re-post your whole response, but I think you have nailed it. It’s to some extent an act of rebellion and a way to be “special.” If you watch the conversion ceremonies, which are often in front of a crowd, the crowd applauds politely for a male convert, but they go wild for female converts.

And Myriam is very photogenic and articulate, you’re right. I don’t think the BBC would be so enamoured of her if she were plain looking. As a side note, it’s interesting to watch her videos over time–her head covering evolves from really strict to less and less strict. Interesting!

When it comes to religion, is logic and reason good or bad?
Not just with Islam, but with Christianity also. For example a concept like the Holy Trinity, if we try to understand it with reason it probably won’t make sense.
I think a lot of Muslims reject the concept of God as a trinity, because it’s so hard to grasp with the human mind.

Newman’s conversion was from reason and logic. I’m not saying this is either necessary or desirable, but it’s certainly one way to do it. But in the RCIA class I mentioned, that wasn’t a factor for anyone. For me it’s key, but I recognize that’s personal. Whenever I read some encyclical I’m always struck by how it’s based on common sense.

As for Muslims, Muslim theologians had a phrase “bi la kayfa” = “without knowing how” that they used to describe aspects of God they could not understand. Equivalent to Christian “mysteries.” Muslim theologians also seem to be more aware of the limitations of language.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Even if it were only a thousand,that is too many.

 

[ReaderT]

Surprising as it is, it actually came from Oxford University: World Christian Encyclopedia, 2nd edition.

 

[Swordsman]

Jeesh. What if it was 50?

The point was in response to a suggestion that all non-orthodox movements and doctrines “die out.”

Thanks and be well.