do you have to be Catholic to get into Heaven??

[mpjw2]

Ron, you are mistaken if you take it to mean that Protestants, pagans, Jews cannot enter heaven.

I am confused…If these people are not catholic at the time of their death and remain protestant, jew, pagan then there is no salvation for them as you quoted…correct?

thank you and God bless

 

[ron77nyc]

No, Ron, you are mistaken.

But, you are mistaken if you take it to mean that Protestants, pagans, Jews cannot enter heaven.

I don’t see how I’m mistaken. Please explain how these statements could be interpreted any other way. I don’t agree with these statements. I’m just stating what the Church taught before Vatican II.

"nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” -Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 (infallible)

The Papal Bull- Unam Sanctam
Boniface VIII- 1302 AD Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature that they be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. …Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

 

[mpjw2]

Hi ron

thank you for the additional quotes from the vatican which support the catholic belief that there is no salvation outside of the catholic church.

Thank you catholic brothers and sisters in Christ for your responses to me and prayers that God will reveal to me truth and I will follow Jesus’ way.

That is the way of the one true apostolic church He founded on the rock, our first pope Peter, the Roman Catholic Church.

correct?

Through CAF you all have posted and replied from your hearts.

Your posts have opened my eyes and educated me on the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

I realize now one reason I left the church might be that I was not properly chatecized in my younger years.

I can not change the past, but the decision I make today will affect my future.

From all the truth you have posted, as you believe truth to be, I can see that you very well may believe I am placing my soul in grave danger if I do not repent and return back to the RCC.

Jesus did say I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but through me.

Since you believe Jesus founded the only one true apostolic catholic church, you also believe she teaches that she is the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father (salvation) except through her, Christ’ church.

As Ron and prochrist1 made reference to, the vatican also supports there is no salvation outside the RCC.

if I were to return to the catholic church, I realize I will need to make a dramatic change in my beliefs.

As a catholic once again, I would first post the following on every “protestant” message board to get the truth out.

Dear brothers and sisters who believe in the same God and Jesus as we catholics do, but do not believe Jesus founded His one catholic church on Peter the rock who is our first pope, in apostolic succession, infant baptism, confession through a priest, perpetual virginity of Mary, the Real Presence of Jesus, praying the rosary, purgatory, praying for the dead, I want to inform you I and the catholic church is praying for you that God will open your heart to the truth and you will make the same decision I did and that is to come home to the one and only church Jesus founded.

Friends if we are supposed to be witnesses to the truth of God and those of you who believe Christ’s catholic church is the one and only way to heaven…,
Then I have one question…

Has anyone ever posted a sincere prayer and message like the one I just stated on a “protestant” message board?

If not, then

Why not?

thank you and

God bless

 

[chosen_people]

I don’t see how I’m mistaken. Please explain how these statements could be interpreted any other way. I don’t agree with these statements. I’m just stating what the Church taught before Vatican II.

"nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” -Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 (infallible)

The Papal Bull- Unam Sanctam
Boniface VIII- 1302 AD Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature that they be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. …Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Other Papal edicts required that Jews live in ghettos and wear special clothing marking them as Jews. So if some Jews are somehow allowed to get into heaven even though they are not Catholics, we can be sure as to where they are going to be living and what they are going to be wearing.

 

[mpjw2]

I don’t see how I’m mistaken. Please explain how these statements could be interpreted any other way. I don’t agree with these statements. I’m just stating what the Church taught before Vatican II.

"nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” -Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 (infallible)

The Papal Bull- Unam Sanctam
Boniface VIII- 1302 AD Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature that they be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. …Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Hi ron

thank you for the additional quotes from the vatican which support the catholic belief that there is no salvation outside of the catholic church.

thank you prochrist1 for posting this link from the vatican July 2007

cbc.ca/world/story/2007/07/10/vatican-church.html

in this release we read …

The Vatican issued a document Tuesday restating its belief that the Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.

It says although Orthodox churches are true churches, they ***are defective ***because they do not recognize the primacy of the Pope.

The document adds that Protestant denominations — called Christian Communities born out of the Reformation — are not true churches, but ecclesial communities.

“These ecclesial communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood … cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called ’churches’ in the proper sense,” it said.

Thank you catholic brothers and sisters in Christ for your responses to me and prayers that God will reveal to me truth and I will follow Jesus’ way.

That is the way of the one true apostolic church He founded on the rock, our first pope Peter, the Roman Catholic Church.

correct?

Through CAF you all have posted and replied from your hearts.

Your posts have opened my eyes and educated me on the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

I realize now one reason I left the church might be that I was not properly chatecized in my younger years.

I can not change the past, but the decision I make today will affect my future.

From all the truth you have posted, as you believe truth to be, I can see that you very well may believe I am placing my soul in grave danger if I do not repent and return back to the RCC.

Jesus did say…

I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me.

Since you believe Jesus founded the only one true apostolic catholic church, you also believe she teaches that she is the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father (salvation) except through her, Christ’ church.

As Ron and prochrist1 made reference to, the vatican also supports there is no salvation outside the RCC.

if I were to return to the catholic church, I realize I will need to make a dramatic change in my beliefs.

As a catholic once again, the first thing I would do is get this important life saving message of truth out to alI non catholics in the world.

What better way than to start with all non catholic message boards.

I probably will post the following,

Dear brothers and sisters who believe in the same God and Jesus and Holy Spirit as we catholics do, but do not believe Jesus founded His one and only catholic church on Peter the rock, (who is our first pope), in apostolic succession, the Real Presence of Jesus, confession through a priest, infant baptism, perpetual virginity of Mary, praying the rosary, purgatory, praying for the dead, I want to inform you of a message which may save your soul from an eternal life in hell.

I walked away from the catholic church and have sinced returned because God has opened my eyes to the absolute truth that there is no salvation outside the catholic Church.

I wanted to let you know that I believe all your souls may be in grave danger if you do not make the same decision I made.

You all are in our prayers that God will open your hearts to the truth and you will make the same decision I did and that is to come home to the one and only church Jesus founded.

Friends, I believe in my heart that if you make a decision to stay where you are, then you are deciding to reject the teachings of Jesus.

Consider this in making your decision,

When you die, Jesus may very well inform you…

Son/daughter you have rejected the truth when you were informed, in doing so you have rejected me, that is a major sin to which I am afraid to inform you there is no forgiveness…depart from me you evil doer.

Is that a chance with your eternal life you are willing to make?

Friends if we as christians are supposed to be witnesses to the truth of God and those of you who believe Christ’s catholic church is the one and only way to heaven…,

then I have two questions…

Has anyone ever posted a sincere prayer and/or message like the one I just stated on any non catholic message board?

If not, then

Why not?

thank you and

God bless

 

[AChris]

So do you think Billy Graham has no faith?

No. Check the Catholic encyclopedia on what faith is.
Does the devil have faith?
Faith is more than knowing a lot about the Bible.

 

[mpjw2]

Friends … to those of you who really believe Christ’s catholic church is the one and only way to heaven…,

I ask you from my heart not to use terms like anti-catholic towards your christian brother and sister like ron and tweetymom, but rather put your faith in motion in an area which may make a diffence in a lot of peoples lives and get the word out on those non catholic boards.

God bless

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

Does anyone believe that Billy Graham, a non Catholic, might be headed for eternal life in hell if He does not follow the teachings of the RCC before the moment of his death?

 

[ron77nyc]

No. Check the Catholic encyclopedia on what faith is.
Does the devil have faith?

Just to make sure I understand you correctly, the question was:

Do you think Billy Graham has no faith? You said no.

I will put it this way: Do you think Billy Graham has faith ?
By that I mean saving faith which is faith in Jesus backed up by obedience and good works.

 

[tweetymom]

Friends … to those of you who really believe Christ’s catholic church is the one and only way to heaven…,

I ask you from my heart not to use terms like anti-catholic towards your christian brother and sister like ron and tweetymom, but rather put your faith in motion in an area which may make a diffence in a lot of peoples lives and get the word out on those non catholic boards.

God bless

mpjw

God Bless you mp in your journey with Christ.:clapping:

 

[guanophore]

I don’t see how I’m mistaken.Please explain how these statements could be interpreted any other way.

I believe you Ron. I also appreciate that you are willing to learn. I, too, had a lot of misunderstandings about the Catholic faith that have been corrected since I came to CAF.

Please explain how these statements could be interpreted any other way. I don’t agree with these statements. I’m just stating what the Church taught before Vatican II.

Documents must be understood in the context they were written. What was written previously reflected the teaching of the Apostles that those who willfully rejected the faith that was handed down by them were heretics, and were outside of saving faith. The previous writers could not have conceived all the damaging effects of the Reformation, or as some call it, the “deformation”. Since that time, the Church has had to develop an understanding of how the Teaching of the Apostles (no one can be saved outside of the Church) with the modern appearance of many sincere Christians who have embraced faith traditions outside the visible boundaries of the Church.

It seems that you, along with a number of us, were taught many errors growing up, and what we were given to believe as “Catholic” is not really Catholic at all. Lack of Bible reading is a good example. The notion that people outside the visible boundaries of the church cannot be saved is another falsehood. The Church has always taught that God can save whoever He wants, however He likes.

"nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” -Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 (infallible)

This is written by, for, and about catholics. Note the term “persevered”. This is addressed to persons who are baptized Catholics. we must remain in the church, and not forsake her.

This statement does not apply to those who have come to know the Lord (in whatever context) outside of the Catholic Church.

The Papal Bull- Unam Sanctam
Boniface VIII- 1302 AD Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature that they be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

I am not sure what problem you see with this. Are you saying that Protestants (rebellious subjects fo the Roman Pontiff) cannot be saved?

Persons cannot be charged with rebellion against authority appointed by God if they don’t know that it exists. No one is condemned to hell for ignorance of the Truth. People condemn themselves to hell for rebellion against the Truth.

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

I think the Catechism on the status of Protestants explains this best.. I hope that you and Tweety will inculcate this information, so that you can both stop posting falsehoods on CAF.

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): "The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. ...Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors." (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

As the catechism makes clear, the vast majority of Protestants do accept, recognize, and obey the Teachings of the Apostles contained in the Catholic Church. We call them our separated brethren because they all have greater or lesser degrees of departure from the Apostolic Teaching. The vast majority, like you and Tweety, depart from it in ignorance. Condemnation comes from rebellion, not from ignorance. However we have an obligation to study to show ourselves approved unto God (learn our fatih).

Most of our separated brethren have no clue what real worship is (Eucharist). They think that their praise rallies and preaching sessions constitute “worship”.

 

[guanophore]

Other Papal edicts required that Jews live in ghettos and wear special clothing marking them as Jews. So if some Jews are somehow allowed to get into heaven even though they are not Catholics, we can be sure as to where they are going to be living and what they are going to be wearing.

this is a very good point, Chosen. Papal bulls and edicts do not necessarily represent infallible teaching. If you have a reference to these documents, I am interested in reading them. Certainly we all fall short in many ways, and the Pope is no exception.

 

[guanophore]

Hi ron God will reveal to me truth and I will follow Jesus’ way.

That is the way of the one true apostolic church He founded on the rock, our first pope Peter, the Roman Catholic Church.

correct?

Well, yes an no. the One Church founded by Christ is Holy, True, and Apostolic, but it is not Roman. Peter was not “Roman” either. He was a Palestinian.

Hi ron I realize now one reason I left the church might be that I was not properly chatecized in my younger years.

this happened to a lot of us. I did not take on the responsibility given to me at Confirmation to study my faith until I was in my 30’s, and already left the Church.

I can not change the past, but the decision I make today will affect my future.

God writes straight with crooked lines. He used my separated brethren, and my study of the heresies of the Reformation to bring me back.

[QUOpjw2;5761497] if I were to return to the catholic church, I realize I will need to make a dramatic change in my beliefs.

Like what?

[QUOpjw2;5761497] As a catholic once again, the first thing I would do is get this important life saving message of truth out to alI non catholics in the world.

It might be better to start with the Catholics right next to you in the pew! Ron and Tweety have accurately pointed out that a lot of Sacramentalized Catholics are unevangelized. They go through the motions of religion, lacking the power thereof.

[QUOpjw2;5761497] I wanted to let you know that I believe all your souls may be in grave danger if you do not make the same decision I made.

Why would you say such a thing? It is inconsistent with the Catechism! I think this message is much nore needed in the Catholic Church than it is on a Protestant message board.

[QUOpjw2;5761497] Friends, I believe in my heart that if you make a decision to stay where you are, then you are deciding to reject the teachings of Jesus.

I dont’ think this is a correct statement. I mean, you may believe it in your heart, correct, but persons who do not embrace the Catholic faith, or submit themselves to the Roman Pontiff do not do so because they reject the teachings of Christ. MOst of them who are serious about their faith follow everything they believe Jesus taught. They don’t recognize and understand that unity with the Successor of Peter was one of His intentions for the church. They are not condemned because of ignorance.

[QUOpjw2;5761497] Friends if we as christians are supposed to be witnesses to the truth of God and those of you who believe Christ’s catholic church is the one and only way to heaven…,

then I have two questions…

Has anyone ever posted a sincere prayer and/or message like the one I just stated on any non catholic message board?

No. I think it would be inappropriate for me to do such a thing, and the contents of it are inconsistent with the Catechism (Teaching of the Church).

Not only that, unnecesarily inflammatory.

 

[mpjw2]

thank you guanophore for a your responses…

We are 100% sure that God wills to save you.

Whether or not that will happen, only He knows!

yes He does,

and if I do not return to the catholic chuch, are you concerned that you may not see me in heaven?

If a person willfully and knowingly rejects the Catholic faith, it means they have rejected Christ. There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved.

**Is it your belief that I am presently rejecting Christ as a non catholic christian??

a simple yes or no here please**

Originally Posted by mpjw2
Which of the following 3 examples of people, if it applies, do you believe the catholic church teaches can not get to heaven …

1. Me. I was baptized as an infant in the catholic church…I lived a catholic believing life to the age of 30.

I am now 52, baptized by immersion in 2000, born again bible believing christian, with a solid faith and trust in Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour and by only through Him and the precious blood He shed, is the way to heaven. I will die as a non catholic.

I doubt that! You have no way of knowing how you will die.

you avoided the question. If I die right now while typing this message to you, I will have died a non catholic.

What do you believe my eternal destination will be?

Originally Posted by mpjw2
all other christians who have seen, knew or heard about the catholic church and have the same belief in the bible and faith in Jesus as I do, but have never in their life been a member of the catholic church, even at the time of their death.

The vast majority of people who have been exposed to Catholicism misunderstand it. Even persons raised in the faith as you were don’t understand many essentials of the faith. If they did understood, they would never leave. Ignorance does not prevent heaven. Rebellion does.

**So then do you believe the people I described in this scenario are ignorant or have rebelled?

is there salvation for them if they die as non catholic?**

The Apostles taugth that it is not up to us to judge the hearts and souls of people, Only God knows the hearts of such persons. The Apostles taught that salvation is available to all,

agree with all I quoted

and that those who don’t know Jesus personally are judged in the light of the Truth that has been revealed to them.

Paul lets us know in Romans that God has revealed Himself to all and that no man is without excuse

All of us will be purified for heaven, either in this life, or the next.

If purgatory is real then I see your point,

If there is no purgatory, which is my belief, then if one is not not purified by the power of a sincere contrite confession to God on this side of eternity, I believe that person is unclean and can not be in heaven.

Is there some state of grace that is not “absolute”?

apparently so. I make a sincere contrite confession, no sin witheld I believe I am in absolute grace and on my way to heaven should I die right after such a confession.

It is you who believes I need to be further purified in purgatory before I enter heaven.

Doesn’t proper confession restores ones soul to pure absolute grace?

mpjw2
If this is true, how much purer can one person get if their soul has already been restored to grace by Jesus through confession and prayer?

I don’t think that any better purity is possible.

Yes you do as you go on to describe…

For those who have been washed clean in baptism, no higher purity exists. This question pertains to the state of the “old man”. Jesus desires to completely restore us to what He created us to be - without the sin nature, or any concupiscence (tendency toward sin). Whatever is in us, or of us, that is not of God, it will be burned away.

mpjw2

Does anyone believe my sin may not be totally forgiven because I do not confess through an ordained priest?

It is possible, of course. Making a perfect confession is very difficult because of the nature of our humanity. The human heart is deceitful above all things. Our secret thoughts (the hidden and unconscious) parts of our hearts can still harbor attachment to sin without us being aware of it.

Cant the human heart be deceitful when confessing to a priest?

If one chooses to hide sin that person can hide it in confession to a priest or not

thank you again and God bless

 

[guanophore]

Friends … to those of you who really believe Christ’s catholic church is the one and only way to heaven…,

Jesus has other sheep, and other folds. Only He knows all of those who aer on the “one way to heaven”. Some of them are outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic church.

  I ask you from my heart not to use terms like anti-catholic towards your christian brother and sister like ron and tweetymom, but rather put your faith in motion in an area which may make a diffence in a lot of peoples lives and get the word out on those non catholic boards.

God bless

mpjw

mpjw2, Ron and Tweety claim to be Catholic, and because they do so, they have an obligation, especially on a board that exists for the purpose of providing Catholic answers, to represent the Catholic faith accurately. both of them have failed to do so, and both of them have posted numerous messages espousing anti-Catholic ideas.

I am a lot more concerned about what they are doing here, than I am about the souls of faithful Christians who practice their faith with integrity on non-Catholic fora.

If they wish to go there, and not pretend to be Catholic, then that might be appropriate for them, siince they espouse non -Catholic theologies. This is not my calling.

 

[tweetymom]

Jesus has other sheep, and other folds. Only He knows all of those who aer on the “one way to heaven”. Some of them are outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic church.

mpjw2, Ron and Tweety claim to be Catholic, and because they do so, they have an obligation, especially on a board that exists for the purpose of providing Catholic answers, to represent the Catholic faith accurately. both of them have failed to do so, and both of them have posted numerous messages espousing anti-Catholic ideas.

I am a lot more concerned about what they are doing here, than I am about the souls of faithful Christians who practice their faith with integrity on non-Catholic fora.

If they wish to go there, and not pretend to be Catholic, then that might be appropriate for them, siince they espouse non -Catholic theologies. This is not my calling.

Sorry that you think I have posted anti Catholic statements. I do not feel as such But if you do so be it. I came here because I love the Lord and all people what ever they profess. If i am a failure in your eyes so be that too. I feel that I am only a failure in Christs eyes when I fail to give the truth as He has given me. So God Bless you in your journey with Christ. And I can agree to disagree with you in love.

 

[mpjw2]

Hi guanophore;

Thank you for responding but you missed some key elements to your questions.

me

if I were to return to the catholic church, I realize I will need to make a dramatic change in my beliefs.

You

Like what?

here they are again…

Dear brothers and sisters who believe in the same God and Jesus and Holy Spirit as we catholics do, but ***do not believe ***Jesus founded His one and only catholic church on Peter the rock, (who is our first pope), in apostolic succession, the Real Presence of Jesus, confession through a priest, infant baptism, perpetual virginity of Mary, praying the rosary, purgatory, praying for the dead, I want to inform you of a message which may save your soul from an eternal life in hell.

Coming back to the catholic church would require me to believe in what I do not currently believe as stated above in my would be letter to “protestants” should I return to the church.

mpjw

I wanted to let you know that I believe all your souls may be in grave danger if you do not make the same decision I made.

you

Why would you say such a thing? It is inconsistent with the Catechism! I think this message is much nore needed in the Catholic Church than it is on a Protestant message board.

I said that because ***it is consistant ***with the vatican

There is no salvation outside the Catholic church.

that being the case how will it help protestants by posting the message here. Some may see it here but countless more will see it on their own message boards.

let me paste it here again…

Hi Ron thank you for the additional quotes from the vatican which support the catholic belief that there is no salvation outside of the catholic church.

I just noticed you answered all the vatican quotes posted by ron…

here is 1 more

thank you prochrist1 for posting this link from the vatican July 2007

cbc.ca/world/story/2007/0…an-church.html

in this release we read …

The Vatican issued a document Tuesday restating its belief that the Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.

It says although Orthodox churches are true churches, they are defective because they do not recognize the primacy of the Pope.

The document adds that Protestant denominations — called Christian Communities born out of the Reformation — are not true churches, but ecclesial communities.

“These ecclesial communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood … cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense,” it said.

My question is…

If a protestant dies well aware of the catholic church and all of the churches teachings and made a decision not to join the church…

Is that protestant ignorant or has rebelled?

and is there salvation for that protestant?

and what if a protestand had lived the catholic faith at on time and left refusing to go back…

Is that protestant ignorant or has rebelled?

and is there salvation for that protestant?

 

[ron77nyc]

Documents must be understood in the context they were written. What was written previously reflected the teaching of the Apostles that those who willfully rejected the faith that was handed down by them were heretics, and were outside of saving faith. The previous writers could not have conceived all the damaging effects of the Reformation, or as some call it, the “deformation”. Since that time, the Church has had to develop an understanding of how the Teaching of the Apostles (no one can be saved outside of the Church) with the modern appearance of many sincere Christians who have embraced faith traditions outside the visible boundaries of the Church.

This is written by, for, and about catholics. Note the term “persevered”. This is addressed to persons who are baptized Catholics. we must remain in the church, and not forsake her.

This statement does not apply to those who have come to know the Lord (in whatever context) outside of the Catholic Church.

"nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” -Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 (infallible)

Luther posted his theses in 1517 so I don’t think Popes Eugene and Boniface were talking about Protestants. In the beginning Pope Eugene says this:
(A.D. 1438 - 1445): “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock;…”

This is not only about Catholics persevering. It concerns everyone outside the Catholic Church.

The Papal Bull- Unam Sanctam
Boniface VIII- 1302 AD Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature that they be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

I am not sure what problem you see with this. Are you saying that Protestants (rebellious subjects fo the Roman Pontiff) cannot be saved?

Persons cannot be charged with rebellion against authority appointed by God if they don’t know that it exists. No one is condemned to hell for ignorance of the Truth. People condemn themselves to hell for rebellion against the Truth.

Pope Boniface is also including the whole world in his Papal Bull. This includes everyone in the Great Schism of 1054. He’s condemning and holding lay people accountable for the decisions made by their bishops to leave Rome. If the Eastern Catholics joined the Pope in Rome they would have been disobedient to their own bishops.

Most of our separated brethren have no clue what real worship is (Eucharist). They think that their praise rallies and preaching sessions constitute “worship”.

If the real Church (Roman Catholic) is not teaching salvation by faith but instead keeping people out of the kingdom by leaving them in ignorance of the gospel and the so-called man made churches (Protestants) are teaching the way of salvation by faith in Jesus but not with papal approval, then which one is really doing the will of God?

 

[guanophore]

And if I do not return to the catholic chuch, are you concerned that you may not see me in heaven?

Not really. I believe what the Church teaches, that God uses your ecclesial community to draw the faithful unto himself.

I entrust your soul to a faithful creator. I will pray for you, as I do all the members of CAF.

Is it your belief that I am presently rejecting Christ as a non catholic christian??

Part of Him, yes. It seems that you believe you serve God with your whole heart, mind, soul and strength. Therefore, if you do this, then God will reveal His path to you. If there is some aspect of Christ you are not accepting the HS will bring this to your attention.

a simple yes or no here please

Catholics are not at liberty to reduce the teaching of Christ to such terms.

you avoided the question. If I die right now while typing this message to you, I will have died a non catholic.

That is what you say.

The fact that you are not currently participating in the visible Catholic Church does not equate to not having saving faith.

What do you believe my eternal destination will be?

The Apostles taugtht that it is not our place to judge that.

The apostles taught that it is not our place to judge. Only God knows the heart of man.

is there salvation for them if they die as non catholic?

God can save whoever He wants, however He likes. What He has revealed through the Apostles is that no one is saved outside of the Catholic Church. Therefrore, if they are saved, then there is some mysterious manner in which He has joined them to His One Body, the Church, that we may not be able to see.

agree with all I quoted

Are you giving me a directive?

Paul lets us know in Romans that God has revealed Himself to all and that no man is without excuse

Yes.

If purgatory is real then I see your point,

Well, purification for heaven will happen. It will happen in this life through discipleship and sanctification, or it will happen “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” for those who remain until He comes. The rest will be cleansed and purified of the attachments to this life before they enter glory. Nothing unclean can enter heaven. “Purgatory” referes to a state of being cleansed, not a “place” pers se. It is outside of the space time continuum.

If there is no purgatory, which is my belief, then if one is not not purified by the power of a sincere contrite confession to God on this side of eternity, I believe that person is unclean and can not be in heaven.

Both things are true. It is the sincere and contrite confession that enables one to receive the cleansing grace that makes us fit for heaven.

apparently so. I make a sincere contrite confession, no sin witheld I believe I am in absolute grace and on my way to heaven should I die right after such a confession.

The Apostles taught that it is not your place to make such a judgement.

It is you who believes I need to be further purified in purgatory before I enter heaven.

Actually, no. I am not in a position to make such a judgement. Only God knows your heart, and only He can cleanse the hidden motives that may need to be detached from you before you can bask in His complete glory for eternity.

Doesn’t proper confession restores ones soul to pure absolute grace?

Yes, but being forgiven does not mean that the consequences of our sins are expunged. Jesus paid the eternal consequence, but the termporal ones God often allows us to bear, for our growth. To the extent that these consequences remain in us, we continue to work out our salvation.

Yes you do as you go on to describe…

It is very difficult for human beings to remain in the state of grace/purity provided by baptism and reconciliation.

Cant the human heart be deceitful when confessing to a priest?

Absolutely! the difference is that, in the sacrament, all sins are forgiven, even those that we did not know we committed. You might want to consider reviewing the Rite of Confession. In it, the priest says “I absolve you from all your past sins”. This includes those we did not realize we committed, or believed at the time were not sins.

If one chooses to hide sin that person can hide it in confession to a priest or not

He can, but that makes the confession invalid.

thank you again and God bless

Thank you for a most interesting discussion.

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[tweetymom]

Ron once again you are right on. My now husband was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school, was an Altar Boy, was on his way to the seminary, and had never read the Bible? So I am at odds at what he was taught? Now we both read the Bible and he has discovered a lot of truths he didn’t know existed. He only knew what the Nuns said( not that they were 100% wrong)

I too when I went to Catachism ovcer 60 odd years was taught by Nuns that taught me what to say and how to act in Church. But never the meaning of anything they taught. My parents divorced when I was 3 and I didn’t go to Catachism until I was 11. I was berated by the Nuns because I was so old and that my parents were bad parents and made to feel very sad and defeated.

When I grew old enough I went to Protestant church with my first husband and learned 100% more about Christ than I ever did before and I wasn’ttaught that Catholism was a bad word by anyone. I was accepted for who I was.

Since returning to my childhood Church, I have been accepted for who I am, and my love for Christ. I have never been treated like anti Catholic like I have been here at CAF,

So Ron keep up the good post and God Bless yoy in your Journey with our Saviour:thumbsup: