do you have to be Catholic to get into Heaven??

[2nd_Adam]

Interesting discussion among Catholics!

For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another. - Apostle Paul

 

[Carlan]

Originally Posted by tweetymom
My behavior has been great. I am Gods servant not tne Church’s God Bless you always and Peace[end Quote]

Quote:] Gaunophore] Lack of recognition that we are to submit to our shepherds in the Church may indicate a spirit of rebellion.

Not only that, you have stated that you have been a teacher in the RCIA program,therefore you are a servant of the Church.
As a member of CAF, you might wish to consider serving the mission of CAF.

Misrepresenting the teaching of the Catholic Church, while claiming to be a Catholic, on a Catholic Forum, designed to provide Catholic answers is not a service to God either.[end Quote]

---

Hello tweety, I have been following your visit to this thread, and I hope you don’t mind my comments, they are meant in good faith.
My understanding is that you were a member of the Catholic Church and left for a reason, you became an involved member of one of serveral non denominations separated from the Church founded by Christ. You then returned to the Catholic Church.
You profess Her but you are not proclaiming her. I do not understand that…

You did say you were a catechist for many years. Have you forgotten, the Catechism is a statement of the Church’s faith and of Catholic doctrine brought to light by Sacred Scripture, the apostolic Tradition, and the Churches Magisterium?

We as Catholics are required to use our knowledge of the faith in proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life of the Church.
It is meant to support ecumenical efforts for the unity of all Christians,showing the wonderful harmony of the Catholic faith.

It seems to me that this is what you should be doing as a Catholic coming into this kind of thread.
Please listen to Guanophore and the other gifted apologists in this thread, they are not trying to hurt you or others. They are speaking to the truth as the Church proclaims it.
Tweety, I see in you as:love::gopray2: a possible forceful warrior for our Catholic faith,proclaiming the full Truth given to us by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. may our dear Lord bless and guide you toward this.:):love::signofcross: Carlan

 

[PRmerger]

At the moment he cheated on his wife he is in sin and destined for hell.

So would it be correct to say that you beileve that no one has the assurance of salvation, because no one knows if he’s going to sin right before he dies, mpjw?

 

[PRmerger]

Who is wrong in their belief of ignorance and rebellion…you or guanaphore?

guanophore and I are saying the same thing. We are not saying anything new–just re-iterating the constant teaching of the CC for 2000 years.

Again, this is what I believe, this is what guanophore believes, this is what the CC teaches. What ever other Catholics may profess, it is NOT what the CC teaches, to the degree that it disagrees with this:

From the CCC:
**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

**846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Mission - a requirement of the Church’s catholicity

849 The missionary mandate. “Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be ‘the universal sacrament of salvation,’ the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men”:339 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and Lo, I am with you always, until the close of the age."340

850 The origin and purpose of mission. The Lord’s missionary mandate is ultimately grounded in the eternal love of the Most Holy Trinity: "The Church on earth is by her nature missionary since, according to the plan of the Father, she has as her origin the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit."341 The ultimate purpose of mission is none other than to make men share in the communion between the Father and the Son in their Spirit of love.342

851 Missionary motivation. It is from God’s love for all men that the Church in every age receives both the obligation and the vigor of her missionary dynamism, "for the love of Christ urges us on."343 Indeed, God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”;344 that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God’s universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary.

852 Missionary paths. The Holy Spirit is the protagonist, "the principal agent of the whole of the Church’s mission."345 It is he who leads the Church on her missionary paths. "This mission continues and, in the course of history, unfolds the mission of Christ, who was sent to evangelize the poor; so the Church, urged on by the Spirit of Christ, must walk the road Christ himself walked, a way of poverty and obedience, of service and self-sacrifice even to death, a death from which he emerged victorious by his resurrection."346 So it is that "the blood of martyrs is the seed of Christians."347

853 On her pilgrimage, the Church has also experienced the "discrepancy existing between the message she proclaims and the human weakness of those to whom the Gospel has been entrusted."348 Only by taking the “way of penance and renewal,” the “narrow way of the cross,” can the People of God extend Christ’s reign.349 For "just as Christ carried out the work of redemption in poverty and oppression, so the Church is called to follow the same path if she is to communicate the fruits of salvation to men."350**

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t think it is right to blame the Church for this failure. That is like blaming Christ for the failure of Judas to “get it”. The Church is the Holy and infallible Bride of Christ.

Yes, I stand corrected. The Magisterium did *not *fail in properly transmitting and guarding God’s Word…it was humans in the Church who failed miserably to properly catechize.

However, I will say that each individual has their own guilt to the degree that they did not question nor pursue the fullness of Truth.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Ever loyal to the Magisterium…ever questioning (signature)

PRmerger

Interesting signature. I thought Jesus is Lord and not the Magisterium.

Unity in the Body of Christ
4:1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”

9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? [1] 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds [2] and teachers, [3] 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, [4] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. - Paul

 

[PRmerger]

The bible tells us if you believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth that Jesus is the Lord and Savior of your life, and that God raised him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED. romans 10:9. there is no interpretation here.

What about all the other verses in Scripture which say something else is required?

See this post to view those verses.

 

[PRmerger]

Ever loyal to the Magisterium…ever questioning (signature)

PRmerger

Interesting signature. I thought Jesus is Lord and not the Magisterium.

What would make you think that I believe Jesus is NOT Lord?

I’m pretty sure that doctrine has been protected and guarded all these years for you by the Magisterium. That is, you would not know that Jesus is Lord were it not for the Magisterium of the CC that provided the revelation for you.

 

[PRmerger]

if for some reason you had a dramatic change of heart and decided to leave the catholic church and be a member of one of the many non catholic christian churches and did not return at the time of your death,

would you be

in rebellion to the catholic church teaching? destined for heaven or hell?

I think I already answered this question way back when…and Strawberry had a little fit about my calling your understanding of the CC uninformed. Remember?

 

[guanophore]

Hi Guan,
Please explain what you mean by this. The nuns, priests and bishops are the Church. One of the duties of a bishop is to teach or at least to make known what is to be taught.

The problem stems from a defiicient understanding of the Church. During the Reformation, men found it expedient to separate themselves from the Apostolic Succession. They hoped that this would separate them from the corruption they witnessed among those who claimed to speak for God. They redefined “church” to “the body of believers”. This is not consistent with the Apostolic Teaching of the meaning of Church.

When a person who claims to represent the Church, such as those persons who were responsible for our spiritual formation, departs from the faith by teaching errors, they have already separated themselves from the Church, in spirit, if not outwardly.

When a Bishop fails in his duty to teach and shepherd the faithful, he has already separated himself from the Holy Bride.

It is the Divine Elements that make the Church Holy and Infallible. She has as her Head, Christ Himself. Many modern evangelicals separate Christ from His Body. But when the Head is separated from the Body the Body dies. So those members (outwardly) of the Church that teach and practice error separate themselves. The victims are the innocent in catechism, who don’t know any better. That is why the penalty is so severe. Jesus said, if anyone leads one of these little ones astray…better a millstone be tied around his neck…

The Church has as her Soul the HS, who infilled her on Pentecost, and who animates her. Without the HS, she cannot live.

The Church also includes the saints triumphant(in glory). These who have gone on before us in the faith are sanctified, and glorified. They are prevented from error forever by His mighty power.

So, it is wrong to lay at the feet of Christ, the HS, and the sanctified these wrongdoings. Blaming poor catechesis on them is not accurate, for they are incapable of error. Rather, the error belongs to the individuals who committed it, even those in high positions of authority.

 

[PRmerger]

Hope you do not mind the personal question but that scenario is me. I was part of the CC, left and I am not coming back

This is what I posted to you a while back, mjpw:

**Originally posted by PRmerger **
2 comments: “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin”.( John 15:22). That is, if one didn’t know Christ’s message is True, then she would have no culpability; but once the message is given, there is “no excuse for their sin”.

However, I believe that you are quite ignorant about the teachings that you left behind in your RCC days. (I mean that in a non-inflammatory way.) This opinion is based on the questions you’ve raised about Catholicism and the incorrect things you’ve professed that the CC teaches.

IF you would be able to articulate the CC’s teaching on the Eucharist, give the Scriptural references, cite the ECF’s writings professing their belief in the Real Presence, affirm that all Christians believed in this teaching until the 16th century, yet still reject it, then I would tremble for your soul.

IF you would be able to articulate correctly WHY the CC proclaims Mary’s perpetual virginity, the papacy, the 7 sacraments, praying to saints, and could express exactly what the Mass is and why it is Scriptural…yet reject the teachings, then I would tremble for your soul.

However, I am confident that I need not worry about your salvation. And I mean this most respectfully. You were not catechized well in your 35 or so years as a Catholic. Now, it’s a different story however…

 

[guanophore]

It is becoming quite clear that I was not able to convey my argument cogently.

I am the member who posted that statement. However, I was *trying *to give an example of what IGNORANCE was–that is, it is a false statement to say that the CC teaches that all Protestants are damned to hell when it professes “Outside the Church there is no salvation.” That is FALSE. The CC does NOT teach that. But to SAY that this is what the CC teaches is to either be IGNORANT (that is, uninformed, un-discipled, un-tutored, un-educated) of what the CC professes, or to willfully malign the CC.

Thanks. I figured it out AFTER I posted a reply, and read back over the thread.

I got confused because I expected to see the false statement with someone else’s quote marks around it.

 

[John1]

Hi tweetymom,

I think you are on the right path. For this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven. I think what Paul was trying to warn the early Christian about, in 1 Corinthians 3, has been largely disregarded. The jeaslousy and quarreling between Protestants and Catholics is pathetic and worldly. How can you hope to address a worldly crowd spiritually, when they are obviously not ready to hear? The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. One day I hope that all Christians can unite and rid themselves of any other title than “Christian”. May God help us!

 

[PRmerger]

Outside - that is, not inside. Overboard. Out in the cold…in the dark.

The Church - the body of Christ. The religion Christ started. The Catholic Church.

There is no salvation - Not going to heaven

Protestants: outside the Church: therefore, no salvation.

Simple.

Amen, AChris! Protestants who are outside the Church have no salvation. To the degree that they agree with Christ’s bride they are inside the Church.

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.CCC 337

 

[guanophore]

Once again guanophore, you condemn others as being ignorant of their faith,

Being ignorant (not knowing) is not a matter for condemnation - unless one is unwilling to correct the problem. Observing that the content of one’ post is not consistent with the Catholic faith condemns no one. It is simply a statement of fact. It has no bearing on their eternal state.

of not being Catholic enough to give their opinon, when in fact your own opinon on this matter is lacking and misleading. Rom 1:22 - for professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Well, AChris, anyone who has signed up for an account here is allowed to give their opinion. Clearly he is able to do so!

I have not offered any opinions, so it would be difficult for them to be misleading. I have also offered no claim to wisdom, though I don’t doubt I am a fool.

I have represented the teaching of the Church, and observed when others have not. The Teachings are not mine, and don’t emanate from any wisdom or opinion of mine.

The Church says: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.  Why are you so confused about such a clear infallible statement? Could it be that you simply refuse to acept it?'/quote]

Perhaps we have a different understanding of what it means?

I accept the Catholic Catechism on this point. Perhaps you do not. Perhaps you prefer your own opinion to the sure norm that the Church has put forth?
AChris;5767394:

And you accuse ME of thinking I'm a supreme authority!

Did I say that?

 I only said what the Church teaches. You on the other hand only give fallible statements and ideas you got from who knows where.  Please, this is called "Catholic Answers". Please be considerate and let your own answers be "Catholic". Outside the Church there is no salvation.

That does NOT equate to “all Protestants will go to hell”.

 

[guanophore]

Outside - that is, not inside. Overboard. Out in the cold…in the dark.

The Church - the body of Christ. The religion Christ started. The Catholic Church.

There is no salvation - Not going to heaven

Protestants: outside the Church: therefore, no salvation.

Simple.

You have “simply” misunderstood the Teaching of the Church in this matter. Perhaps you had the same erroneous catechesis that Ron had?

 

[ron77nyc]

Yes, I stand corrected. The Magisterium did *not *fail in properly transmitting and guarding God’s Word…it was humans in the Church who failed miserably to properly catechize.

However, I will say that each individual has their own guilt to the degree that they did not question nor pursue the fullness of Truth.

Do you realize that if I had studied the Council of Trent and Vatican I when I was a teenager and had discovered that we are justified by faith and not works I would have been a heretic or a Protestant or maybe just mentally irregular. The monsignor didn’t even know about those things. Who was I to make such statements? I went to Catholic high school. The brothers didn’t know that stuff. If I had mentioned justification people would do what they do today. They just look at you funny and change the subject.

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger,

I forgot to reply back to you about Paul.
you stated to me that He never declared he was sure he was going to heaven.

When I wrote this:

You are not the judge, mpjw. It is the Lord who judges me. I do not judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted.

you were aware that I was not the first to write those phrases, right, mpjw? I lifted them straight from Scripture. Straight from St. Paul.

It seems, clearly, that even St. Paul, arguably one of the Lord’s greatest evangelists, did not have the absolute assurance of salvation. “I am not thereby acquitted” says St. Paul.

 

[PRmerger]

Do you realize that if I had studied the Council of Trent and Vatican I when I was a teenager and had discovered that we are justified by faith and not works I would have been a heretic or a Protestant or maybe just mentally irregular. The monsignor didn’t even know about those things. Who was I to make such statements?

What? Vatican I and the Council of Trent said what?

 

[PRmerger]

Regardless how much you guys would love to exclude us.

We most definitely do NOT exclude you, Hisalone! Come on in! The water’s fine! (It’s Holy Water, too! )