do you have to be Catholic to get into Heaven??

[PRmerger]

Where do you find that?

1 Corinthians 4:3-4

 

[mpjw2]

I mean that it is an example of a statement of ignorance. Someone who is ignorant does not know any better. Someone who is ignorant has not been taught the truth; they are ignorant of the facts…

PR …thank you for explaining. you comfirmed exactly what I was thinking after I posted right before leaving for work. Please accept my sincere apology.

lets start over again and this time you will see corrections made.

thank you PR for answering a question I posted to guanaphore

trying to get guanfore to explain which is which…his reply was basically God will judge who is in rebellion or ignorant.

I see that you believe all protestants are ignorant if they believe that the catholic church teaches that all protestants are damned to hell.

however you did not state the eternal destination of one who is in rebellion…if you would be so kind as to post and let me know

based on your descriptions, consider
all non catholic christians who have seen, knew or heard about the catholic church and have the same belief in the bible and faith in the same God/Jesus/Holy Spirit as you do, but have never in their life been a member of the catholic church, even at the time of their death, what do you believe describes these christians?

are they rebelling or ignorant?

destined for heaven or hell?

if for some reason you had a dramatic change of heart and decided to leave the catholic church and be a member of one of the many non catholic christian churches and did not return at the time of your death,

would you be

in rebellion to the catholic church teaching? destined for heaven or hell?

or

ignorant to the catholic church teaching? destined for heaven or hell?

Hope you do not mind the personal question but that scenario is me. I was part of the CC, left and I am not coming back

Originally Posted by PRmerger

Rebellion: (did not indicate)

I will not OBEY. I will not submit. I am my own authority. I decide what God really meant when He said “if you divorce and remarry, you commit adultery”. I decide if God really meant “He who hears you hears me.”

Ignorance: (is to believe) The CC teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church means that all Protestants are damned to hell. here is what guanaphore replied to me in 523

The vast majority of people who have been exposed to Catholicism misunderstand it. Even persons raised in the faith as you were don’t understand many essentials of the faith. If they did understood, they would never leave.
Ignorance (chance of heaven)

does not prevent heaven.
Rebellion (no chance of heaven=hell) does.

Do you agree with guanaphore here?

thank you again and God bless

mpjw2

 

[PRmerger]

but left out my reply …why?

Because I was addressing whether St. Paul had assurance of salvation. From the Scripture verse I gave you, it is evident that he did not.

I wonder what Paul would of answered his son if he asked him here,
“Dad you mentioned eternal life, do you believe you will have eternal life in heaven?”

You need not wonder, mpjw. Here’s what he probably would have replied:

It is the Lord who judges me. I do not judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted.

(Again, this is straight from Scripture)

Incidentally, this brings up another point–I hope you’re not one of those people who rebukes Catholics for calling priests “Father” when Scripture says to “Call no man ‘Father’”, mpjw. For your post above is clearly an affirmation that it’s okay to call our spiritual leaders “dad”.

Also, I’d like to know your response to my question as to how you know what are the essential truths that Christians must agree on and what are the ones it’s okay to “agree to disagree”.

Finally, when I asked if you could be a Christian and not agree with 100% of what Christ said you responded that you “believe someone can be a christian and not believe everything Jesus taught.”

I then asked: Is there a Scripture verse you use, mpjw, to come to this understanding?

 

[mpjw2]

PR…if for some reason you had a dramatic change of heart and decided to leave the catholic church and be a member of one of the many non catholic christian churches and did not return at the time of your death,

would you be

in rebellion to the catholic church teaching? destined for heaven or hell?

I think I already answered this question way back when…and Strawberry had a little fit about my calling your understanding of the CC uninformed. Remember?

I remember something about StrawberryJam and a disagreement she had …I do not recall the specif subject matter.

If you would be so kind as to give your answer here I would appreciate it…also someone new viewing the thread might be interested in your answer

thank you and God bless

 

[PRmerger]

lets start over again and this time you will see corrections made.

Yes, I agree with guanophore.

As to the rest of your post, I responded to it in post #684, which was a repeat of a post that I gave you a while back.

I think I have answered and answered and answered the question as to what the CC believes about individuals who leave the CC and vow never to return. I understand it is personal to you, mjpw, but the question has been addressed ad nauseum.

Also, can you please answer this question: So would it be correct to say that you believe that no one has the assurance of salvation, because no one knows if he’s going to sin right before he dies, mpjw?

(I know this question was just posted today, but I’m eager to read your response.)

 

[PRmerger]

PR…if for some reason you had a dramatic change of heart and decided to leave the catholic church and be a member of one of the many non catholic christian churches and did not return at the time of your death,

would you be

in rebellion to the catholic church teaching? destined for heaven or hell?

I would answer that I do not judge myself. It is the Lord who judges me. 1 Cor 4.

 

[PRmerger]

PR …thank you for explaining. you comfirmed exactly what I was thinking after I posted right before leaving for work. Please accept my sincere apology.

Accepted, dear Sister!

 

[mpjw2]

PR thank you for reminding me about this. I knew you asked me and I was thinking of a clear way to answer.

How do you determine which truths are “essential” to believe and which ones are ok to disagree upon? I don’t believe Scripture gives us an indicator whatsoever which are okay to “agree to disagree”.

Scripture does not give an indicator like you said. Scripture also does not say you have to believe everything in the bible cover to cover to be saved either.

I however believe the bible cover to cover.

there are some christians I met who can not believe the red sea departed, or Peter walked on water, or Jonah survived 3 days in a fish, or 3 men survived a fiery furnace not only that a 4th man appeared in the furnace.

I will stop here.

Let me ask you, when it comes to saving your soul, if you believe Jesus died for your sins but do not believe the story of Jonah, do you believe God will not save you?

me

God has taught you in His word He loves you so much that He gave you His Son Jesus to pay for your sin/s by His precious blood so that you do not have to go pay for your sin for eternity in hell.
That is God’s promise of John 3:16

you

So do you believe that the criminal who died on Jesus’ other side (not the Good Thief, St. Dismas) is also in heaven? It seems he did not believe what God has taught in His Word, yet Christ died for his sins, too, yes??

yes… Jesus died for his sins but the other thief did not have faith in Jesus. He did not believe in Jesus so he is not in heaven

the other thief challenged Jesus …if you are who you say you are save yourself and me

God bless

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

1 Corinthians 4:3-4

PRmerger thank you for that but here is another classic example of taking scripture out of context.

I just did it with you when I thought you were damning protestants to hell and you reacted accordingly with the “smiley” expressions.

When you take one verse it may seem like it means something

then if you look a couple af verses before and/or after it may take on a different meaning,

then look at the chapter, the book, the book in context with another book.

in each case you may get a different meaning to what is read

in 1Corinthians

1So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. 2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

by the 5th verse Paul is telling the apostles about the praises each will receive from God.

Why do believe that is so?

thank you and God bless

 

[mpjw2]

No, William, this is an erroneous statement for several reasons. God can save whoever He wants, however He likes.

It is also inappropriate for you to pronoune who “goes to hell”. This is contrary to Catholic teaching, and is contradictory to productive discussion on the topic.

I suggest that you read your catechism, and amend your statements appropriately. If you are not going to give “Catholic Answers”, why would you want to be on a Catholic Answers forum, purporting to be Catholic?

And why would anyone want to go to the website you provided to become Catholic after you have misrpresented Cathlicism?

Honestly…

THANK YOU guanaphore for taking a stand on what is right thing to do

God bless you

 

[mpjw2]

***you don’t have to be officially a member of the Catholic Church to be saved… but if you reject the RCC when you know it is the true Church… that can be a different story… ***

Just so we are clear distracted. I understand what catholics are telling me that the RCC is the true Church.

I do not believe the RCC is the true church.

you say to that?

thank you and God bless

 

[mpjw2]

I don’t think it is right to blame the Church for this failure. That is like blaming Christ for the failure of Judas to “get it”. The Church is the Holy and infallible Bride of Christ.

mpjw definitely had very poor catechisis, as did several of us on this thread, including myself, Ron, Tweety, and her husband. This is the fault of the nuns, priests, bishops and catechists in charge of formation, as well as the parents of children in homes that did not represent the domestic church. In some of our cases, it is also the fault of us who, when we were confirmed in the faith, did not take upon ourselves the responsibility to learn our faith. Some of us left the Church because our faith was in an infantile state, and we were not getting the proper support to grown in faith. Personally, I was never introduced to Scripture reading until I encountered the Baptists,a nd being famished for the Word of God, I dove in head first, not realizing that I dove straight into some heresies.

mpjw seems to be purporting that she fully understands Catholic faith, but this is just not believable, especially given the type of questions being posed. Anyone who has read and understands the catechism would not have a need to ask these questions, since they are fully explained there.

guanaphore good assumption about me thank you btw I am male lol

 

[dragon]

I’m a catechized, dyed-in-the-wool Catholic who has studied history of the Church and the teachings of the Church…

and this is NOT true…

the catechism does not say that just anyone can get into Heaven…

you have to accept Christ (with all your heart and soul) and do what he says to get into Heaven…

Jesus is God…

Buddha was not… Luther was not…

Mohammad was not…

Jesus is the Word Incarnate… and His Sacrifice is the only thing that can save us (applying it to our lives, that is)

In your answer you mix up religions, prophets, reformers and such. The Jews and Muslims have the same God as you. The Catholic Church were reformers of the God of the Jews and Muslims. For according to the church God of the father and of the son is the same God.

 

[mpjw2]

Once again guanophore, you condemn others as being ignorant of their faith, of not being Catholic enough to give their opinon, when in fact your own opinon on this matter is lacking and misleading. Rom 1:22 - for professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

The Church says: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. Why are you so confused about such a clear infallible statement? Could it be that you simply refuse to acept it?

And you accuse ME of thinking I’m a supreme authority! I only said what the Church teaches. You on the other hand only give fallible statements and ideas you got from who knows where. Please, this is called “Catholic Answers”. Please be considerate and let your own answers be “Catholic”. Outside the Church there is no salvation.

ok who is right here achris/ william or guanophore in regards to salvation?

 

[mpjw2]

So would it be correct to say that you beileve that no one has the assurance of salvation, because no one knows if he’s going to sin right before he dies, mpjw?

Being a follower of Jesus if one sins and knows the penalty for that sin
how long will one wait before one fall on their knees to confess that sin to God and restore their soul to grace?

I sincerely hope they do not wait till the next time they go to confession at their church…they just may die before getting there.

Jesus is restoring my soul just about everyday to grace…I trust in God’s promise that If I confess with my mouth Jesus is Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead, God will save me…that is scripture and I trust God in His word…that is faith

I look forward to seeing you in paradise, I will be there…will you???

God bless

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

guanophore and I are saying the same thing. We are not saying anything new–just re-iterating the constant teaching of the CC for 2000 years.

Again, this is what I believe, this is what guanophore believes, this is what the CC teaches. What ever other Catholics may profess, it is NOT what the CC teaches, to the degree that it disagrees with this:

From the CCC:
**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

**846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Mission - a requirement of the Church’s catholicity

849 The missionary mandate. “Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be ‘the universal sacrament of salvation,’ the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men”:339 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and Lo, I am with you always, until the close of the age."340

850 The origin and purpose of mission. The Lord’s missionary mandate is ultimately grounded in the eternal love of the Most Holy Trinity: "The Church on earth is by her nature missionary since, according to the plan of the Father, she has as her origin the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit."341 The ultimate purpose of mission is none other than to make men share in the communion between the Father and the Son in their Spirit of love.342

851 Missionary motivation. It is from God’s love for all men that the Church in every age receives both the obligation and the vigor of her missionary dynamism, "for the love of Christ urges us on."343 Indeed, God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”;344 that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God’s universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary.

852 Missionary paths. The Holy Spirit is the protagonist, "the principal agent of the whole of the Church’s mission."345 It is he who leads the Church on her missionary paths. "This mission continues and, in the course of history, unfolds the mission of Christ, who was sent to evangelize the poor; so the Church, urged on by the Spirit of Christ, must walk the road Christ himself walked, a way of poverty and obedience, of service and self-sacrifice even to death, a death from which he emerged victorious by his resurrection."346 So it is that "the blood of martyrs is the seed of Christians."347

853 On her pilgrimage, the Church has also experienced the "discrepancy existing between the message she proclaims and the human weakness of those to whom the Gospel has been entrusted."348 Only by taking the “way of penance and renewal,” the “narrow way of the cross,” can the People of God extend Christ’s reign.349 For "just as Christ carried out the work of redemption in poverty and oppression, so the Church is called to follow the same path if she is to communicate the fruits of salvation to men."350**

thank you PR

 

[dragon]

I am going to say what I believe with the thought that I may get banned from here. I think it is absurd that one church or religion thinks they have the only passage to God. I have questioned and searched religions for over 40 years. The things that they have in common is that they believe that there is a being (you can call it what you want) higher, more powerful than man. They also believe in love. Without these two things then you have no religion, just a cult.

The Catholic Church decided what books would be put into the Bible around 300 A.D. Since then they have build up traditions. Who says the Catholic Church is the only church with a true path to God??

I see God or Gods all around me every day. One only has to look up to the stars during a nice clear night and see only a very small part of this universe that we live in. How many worlds are out there?? Who says we are the chosen route to the one and only God?? Only when we get rid of the infighting between the different religions of this world, get rid of the intolerance we have for each other, will we finally start on the true course that is in front of us in this very, very vast universe.

I am always in search of truth, by closing one’s mind to a different path one loses their way. I ask you to look around yourself and tell me that God said “I will pick this small planet out in the vastness that I have created and tell them only what I have planned.” I think this a very ignorant that only a few know the true path of the universe.

Dragon

 

[mpjw2]

Accepted, dear Sister!

thank you and just in case you did not notice my previous post I am a male lol

 

[guanophore]

Hi Guanopore,

In Vatican II I believe that the Pope said that it was evident that the Holy Spirit was was working through some of the separated brethren. Of course those are not the exact words used, but I think that was the spirit of what was meant. If this is true, then it’s also true that the Holy Spirit is leading them to the Truth, which is Jesus.

Yes.

**

I think it’s important to recognize that even the Reformers were not separating themselves from the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, only what they perceived as the depraved leadership of the Roman Catholic Church at that time in history.**

Yes, I believe that they sincerely wanted to follow God, and to sever their relationships with corruption, but not with God. Unfortunately, their methods were erroneous. People are always in need of reform, but there was no error in the doctrines. In their efforts to bring about improvement, they revised doctrines, creating new ones, and departing from Apostolic Teaching. The result was every further diversion from truth, and the multiplicity of splits and divisions.

John1:

Sadly, the earlier split between the Eastern and Western branches had already set the stage for more splits. Today, it seems that Christians split from each other over many different issues, especially in the Protestants, but also in the Catholics.

Yes,and every split takes people further from the Apostolic Faith.

There are a lot of beliefs that shared by catholics and by most protestants. Chiefly the belief that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and our Lord and Saviour. It would be a warm fuzzy feeling for me if Jesus came back and said to me “Well done, good and faithful servant”, and I hope that I’m in the church, of seven churches he addresses in Revelation, that doesn’t need any corrections.]quote]

Yes, we all hope for that. But He appointed Peter as the symbol of unity, and to the extent that we fail to be in unity with what Peter believed, that Truth upon which Christ built His Church, we need corrections.
John1;5768335:

Hopefully we can agree that Jesus is our Foundation, so that even if everything that is built upon that Foundation is burned up in the testing fire, we will still be saved, even as if we were escaping through the smoke. (That wouldn’t neccessarily be the warm fuzzy feeling I would prefer…)

Jesus is the Cornerstone, and the Foundation of the Church is the Apostles and Prophets. Departing from what they believed and taught is what causes divisions.

Your scripture reference it so Purgatory.

Nothing that is built upon Him will burn up. Only those things that are not.

 

[mpjw2]

PR the questions you posed to me I asked you for your answers to the same questions…I believe you missed it .

here they are again

do you believe a good Muslim, who denies Jesus’ divinity, but dies because he ran in front of a bus to save your son is destined to Hell?

your answer?

do you believe that someone who accepts Jesus as his Lord and savior at 15, lives 50 years as a Christian, but at age 65 cheats on his wife and dies is destined to heaven or hell?

your answer?

thank you

God bless