do you have to be Catholic to get into Heaven??

[ron77nyc]

When I wrote this:

you were aware that I was not the first to write those phrases, right, mpjw? I lifted them straight from Scripture. Straight from St. Paul.

It seems, clearly, that even St. Paul, arguably one of the Lord’s greatest evangelists, did not have the absolute assurance of salvation. “I am not thereby acquitted” says St. Paul.

If Paul had the New Testament he could have read what Jesus said and had some reassurance. “everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.”

 

[guanophore]

Ever loyal to the Magisterium…ever questioning (signature)

PRmerger

Interesting signature. I thought Jesus is Lord and not the Magisterium.

Your characterization of Je"sus…and not" is what is erroneous. Even the scriptures you provide give testimony that there is no separation from Christ, who is the Head, and the members of the Body in unity with Him. The reason the Magesterium is infallible is BECAUSE Jesus is Lord. The Apostles did not teach in separation (and not) with our Lord. They faithfully echoed (catechized) what He taught, just as do all teachers who are perfectly joined to His Body. This tendency to separate and divide is an offshoot of the Reformation.

 

[guanophore]

Hi tweetymom,

I think you are on the right path. For this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven. I think what Paul was trying to warn the early Christian about, in 1 Corinthians 3, has been largely disregarded. The jeaslousy and quarreling between Protestants and Catholics is pathetic and worldly. How can you hope to address a worldly crowd spiritually, when they are obviously not ready to hear? The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. One day I hope that all Christians can unite and rid themselves of any other title than “Christian”. May God help us!

Well, John, the reason there are factions is so that the real truth can be seen to stand out. That Truth was committed to the Apostles, and has been preserved in the Catholic Church. This is not about anything personal, it is about Truth. The Truth is immutable (cannot be changed). We either accept it as it was handed on to us, or not. Some of us were handed a bill of goods, and told it was the Truth. We have since recognized otherwise.

No, we are not ready to hear that we should affirm the abandoment of the Truth just so that we can be all warm and fuzzy with each other.

 

[ron77nyc]

What? Vatican I and the Council of Trent said what?

The Council of Trent
The Sixth Session: Justification Canons

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

 

[guanophore]

Do you realize that if I had studied the Council of Trent and Vatican I when I was a teenager and had discovered that we are justified by faith and not works I would have been a heretic or a Protestant or maybe just mentally irregular. The monsignor didn’t even know about those things. Who was I to make such statements? I went to Catholic high school. The brothers didn’t know that stuff. If I had mentioned justification people would do what they do today. They just look at you funny and change the subject.

I don’t doubt you would have been looked upon with oddity. You notice that all the saints throughout history have had this same experience. Many of them have been censured, or deemed heretics. Look at Joan of Arc! They said she had lost her mind, they said she had demons, etc, etc. In the end, her faith saved a lot of people, and helped to purify the Church. This is what we are all called to do.

It is ok, Ron. I realize you are not a teenager any more, but it is never too late to become a fool for Christ. Rather than placing blame for what went wrong, let us do what is right today. Let us provide authentic Catholic Answers to people, so that they are not misled the way we were. Let us pray for the souls of those who let us down, because they may have a millstone around their necks right now!

 

[guanophore]

If Paul had the New Testament he could have read what Jesus said and had some reassurance. “everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.”

He did have it - he had the teaching of the Church. That is how he knew “faith is the assurance of things hoped for”. He has assurance that he would receive 100 times more, and expressed this many times. His confident hope, though, was tempered by the fact that He knew the judgement is up to God alone. He also knew that perseverence to the end was part and parcel of leaving houses, brothers, sisters, etc. He regularly used conditional phrases such as “if” and "provided’. This is how it is communicated that we must remain in that state of grace in order that we not be “disqualified”.

 

[ron77nyc]

It is ok, Ron. I realize you are not a teenager any more, but it is never too late to become a fool for Christ. Rather than placing blame for what went wrong, let us do what is right today. Let us provide authentic Catholic Answers to people, so that they are not misled the way we were. Let us pray for the souls of those who let us down, because they may have a millstone around their necks right now!

Thanks for your persistence and common sense and for being a prayer warrior.

 

[John1]

Well, John, the reason there are factions is so that the real truth can be seen to stand out. That Truth was committed to the Apostles, and has been preserved in the Catholic Church. This is not about anything personal, it is about Truth. The Truth is immutable (cannot be changed). We either accept it as it was handed on to us, or not. Some of us were handed a bill of goods, and told it was the Truth. We have since recognized otherwise.

No, we are not ready to hear that we should affirm the abandoment of the Truth just so that we can be all warm and fuzzy with each other.

Hi Guanopore,

In Vatican II I believe that the Pope said that it was evident that the Holy Spirit was was working through some of the separated brethren. Of course those are not the exact words used, but I think that was the spirit of what was meant. If this is true, then it’s also true that the Holy Spirit is leading them to the Truth, which is Jesus. I think it’s important to recognize that even the Reformers were not separating themselves from the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, only what they perceived as the depraved leadership of the Roman Catholic Church at that time in history. Sadly, the earlier split between the Eastern and Western branches had already set the stage for more splits. Today, it seems that Christians split from each other over many different issues, especially in the Protestants, but also in the Catholics. There are a lot of beliefs that shared by catholics and by most protestants. Chiefly the belief that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and our Lord and Saviour. It would be a warm fuzzy feeling for me if Jesus came back and said to me “Well done, good and faithful servant”, and I hope that I’m in the church, of seven churches he addresses in Revelation, that doesn’t need any corrections. Hopefully we can agree that Jesus is our Foundation, so that even if everything that is built upon that Foundation is burned up in the testing fire, we will still be saved, even as if we were escaping through the smoke. (That wouldn’t neccessarily be the warm fuzzy feeling I would prefer…)

 

[tweetymom]

Christ lives in me and you treat me like dirt…

Guanaphore wins…

I am treating you like dirt? In which way?

 

[tweetymom]

Originally Posted by tweetymom
My behavior has been great. I am Gods servant not tne Church’s God Bless you always and Peace[end Quote]

Quote:] Gaunophore] Lack of recognition that we are to submit to our shepherds in the Church may indicate a spirit of rebellion.

Not only that, you have stated that you have been a teacher in the RCIA program,therefore you are a servant of the Church.
As a member of CAF, you might wish to consider serving the mission of CAF.

Misrepresenting the teaching of the Catholic Church, while claiming to be a Catholic, on a Catholic Forum, designed to provide Catholic answers is not a service to God either.[end Quote]

---

Hello tweety, I have been following your visit to this thread, and I hope you don’t mind my comments, they are meant in good faith.
My understanding is that you were a member of the Catholic Church and left for a reason, you became an involved member of one of serveral non denominations separated from the Church founded by Christ. You then returned to the Catholic Church.
You profess Her but you are not proclaiming her. I do not understand that…

You did say you were a catechist for many years. Have you forgotten, the Catechism is a statement of the Church’s faith and of Catholic doctrine brought to light by Sacred Scripture, the apostolic Tradition, and the Churches Magisterium?

We as Catholics are required to use our knowledge of the faith in proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life of the Church.
It is meant to support ecumenical efforts for the unity of all Christians,showing the wonderful harmony of the Catholic faith.

It seems to me that this is what you should be doing as a Catholic coming into this kind of thread.
Please listen to Guanophore and the other gifted apologists in this thread, they are not trying to hurt you or others. They are speaking to the truth as the Church proclaims it.

 Tweety,  I see in you as:love::gopray2: a possible forceful warrior for our Catholic faith,proclaiming the full Truth given to us by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. may our dear Lord bless and guide you toward this.:):love::signofcross: Carlan

I did not say I was a Catechist for many years. I said that I was 11 years old before I went to Catachism and that all I learned was what to do not why. I learned more going to and teaching Bible study then I did at Catachism, those are the things I said and I still hold true to that fact.

I am a Christian Catholic that believes 100% in every word of the Bible. Some of the things I hear is what you all think and thats ok with me long as you are faithful in what you beleive, and have Jesus in you hearts.

I am not advocating anyone not be a Catholic, Protestant or what ever works. Jesus is my Saviour and always will be regardlesas what you or others think of me. I know in my heart that Jesus saved me and lives in my heart.

I am not promoting anything except a walk with Jesus, and if you have it great. God Bless you in your journey with Our Lord and Peace:tiphat:

 

[tweetymom]

Hi tweetymom,

I think you are on the right path. For this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven. I think what Paul was trying to warn the early Christian about, in 1 Corinthians 3, has been largely disregarded. The jeaslousy and quarreling between Protestants and Catholics is pathetic and worldly. How can you hope to address a worldly crowd spiritually, when they are obviously not ready to hear? The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. One day I hope that all Christians can unite and rid themselves of any other title than “Christian”. May God help us!

Thank you John for your kind post. And it is my prayer that this will happen. God Bless you in your journey and Peace.

 

[AChris]

guanophore and I are saying the same thing.…What ever other Catholics may profess, it is NOT what the CC teaches, to the degree that it disagrees with this:

From the CCC:
**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that…

You are using a fallible document to reverse the meaning of an infallible statement.

SAINT PIUS X- "Progress of dogmas is, in reality, nothing but corruption of dogmas … I absolutely reject the heretical doctrine of the evolution of dogma, as passing from one meaning to another, different from the sense in which the Church originally held it.

SAINT PIUS X- “Acts which spring from natural goodness have only the appearance of virtue; they cannot last of themselves, nor can they merit salvation.”

greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CcGe

 

[Carlan]

I did not say I was a Catechist for many years. I said that I was 11 years old before I went to Catachism and that all I learned was what to do not why. I learned more going to and teaching Bible study then I did at Catachism, those are the things I said and I still hold true to that fact.

Sorry tweetymom, I was thinking also of your teaching RCIA ,and failed to mention it, eight years, was it? God bless, Carlan.

 

[PRmerger]

You are using a fallible document to reverse the meaning of an infallible statement.

1. Isn’t a document from an ecumenical council infallible?
2. You are mistaken in claiming my quote reverses “the meaning of an infallible statement”. There is NO reversal in the quote cited.

 

[PRmerger]

If Paul had the New Testament he could have read what Jesus said and had some reassurance. “everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.”

So, Ron, if I understand your post correctly, you are a Catholic but now are telling us that you also believe in the Protestant tradition of OSAS?

 

[ron77nyc]

So, Ron, if I understand your post correctly, you are a Catholic but now are telling us that you also believe in the Protestant tradition of OSAS?

No-----I don’t believe in OSAS. We must persevere to the end. We don’t know the outcome but God does. If you trust Him, He will not let you fail. King David fell into sin and God did not let him go. He sent a prophet to correct him. Peter denied Christ three times (no surprise to God) and He made him the pope.

Jesus said things in the New Testament that give reassurance.

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Paul said some things himself that give reassurance and confidence. He could have read his own letters if he had them.

Phil 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[PRmerger]

No-----I don’t believe in OSAS. We must persevere to the end. We don’t know the outcome but God does. If you trust Him, He will not let you fail. King David fell into sin and God did not let him go. He sent a prophet to correct him. Peter denied Christ three times (no surprise to God) and He made him the pope.

Jesus said things in the New Testament that give reassurance.

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Paul said some things himself that give reassurance and confidence. He could have read his own letters if he had them.

Phil 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Awesome!

You are correct in stating that we have hope (reassurance) of salvation, but not the absolute assurance of it.

Thus, when mpjw tries, kindly, to tell me that she believes that I’m going to be with her in heaven, then I must correct her. Again, even St. Paul did not know for certain. “I am not thereby acquitted” says St. Paul.

 

[PRmerger]

The Council of Trent
The Sixth Session: Justification Canons

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

So if you were a teenager and told your monsignor, “I am not justified by my own works” you’re saying your monsignor would have said, “The CC teaches that you are”???

 

[mpjw2]

So in reality what you are saying when Jesus spoke Matt 12:31-32 and other scripture he was just kidding?

Matt 12:31-32

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
KJV

Because of your traditions we are all going to hell, You make it sound like Jesus dieing and rising again was useless don’t you think.

Wasn’t Jesus the Ultimate VALID PRIEST, and the purest sacrifice so that we could have Grace? We are ALL sinners!

Regardless of what man may say God gave his only begotten son so that if I believe in him and confess Jesus is Lord and do my best I will get to see him one day…

http://firediv.com/images/acceptjesus.gif

dougfreed … I love the illustration

 

[mpjw2]

PRmerger …you pasted this

I forgot to reply back to you about Paul.
you stated to me that He never declared he was sure he was going to heaven.

but left out my reply …why?

PR, when you read 1Timothy1, Paul in conversation with his son Timothy basically tells him that, even though he was the worst of sinners, Jesus used him to illustrate His unlimited patience and how God poured out His grace on him in abundance as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

I do not know about you…but I picture myself in Timothy’s shoes listening to my dad talk to me

Here is what I am thinking

Wow, my dad just admitted to me he was the worst of sinners. He at one time persecuted christians and was a blasphemer.

I can not imagine a worst sin.
I am glad he told me how sure he was about the only way to heaven is to believe on Jesus

I believe my dad believes, even tough he does not deserve heaven because of his past, he is sure God will welcome him into heaven when he dies because he has repented of his sins and of his solid faith and believe in Jesus.

There is no expression of doubt in this conversation which I can see

I wonder what Paul would of answered his son if he asked him here,
“Dad you mentioned eternal life, do you believe you will have eternal life in heaven?”

When I wrote this:

You are not the judge, mpjw. It is the Lord who judges me. I do not judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted.

you were aware that I was not the first to write those phrases, right, mpjw? I lifted them straight from Scripture. Straight from St. Paul.

It seems, clearly, that even St. Paul, arguably one of the Lord’s greatest evangelists, did not have the absolute assurance of salvation. “I am not thereby acquitted” says St. Paul.

Where do you find that?