do you have to be Catholic to get into Heaven??

[guanophore]

I did not say I was a Catechist for many years. I said that I was 11 years old before I went to Catachism and that all I learned was what to do not why. I learned more going to and teaching Bible study then I did at Catachism, those are the things I said and I still hold true to that fact.

A lot of us were poorly catechized, and learned more in Bible study. It is not uncommon. I thought you said you were teaching RCIA.

I am a Christian Catholic that believes 100% in every word of the Bible.

I know you believe this. The Truth is that you believe 100% what you think the Bible says. If you are not willing to understand what is written from the point of view of those who wrote it, then you will stray from the Truth.

Some of the things I hear is what you all think and thats ok with me long as you are faithful in what you beleive, and have Jesus in you hearts.

Basically what you are saying is that the Truth does not really matter. Each to his own, as long as we feel all warm and fuzzy with Jesus.

I am not advocating anyone not be a Catholic, Protestant or what ever works.

Well, why come to a Catholic Forum and present yourself as Catholic? If you really think that Catholicism has nothing better to offer, why waste your time?

“Protestant or whatever works” ?!

And how do you determine what “works”? What does it mean for it to “work”?

This does not sound like an Apostolic approach to me. I don’t see Paul going all over the known world announcing “Protestant or whatever works”.

Jesus is my Saviour and always will be regardlesas what you or others think of me. I know in my heart that Jesus saved me and lives in my heart.

I don’t think anyone here has said otherwise.

I am not promoting anything except a walk with Jesus, and if you have it great. God Bless you in your journey with Our Lord and Peace:tiphat:

Basically you are saying that everyone should walk according to their own consciene as they see fit. So long as one is feeling warm and fuzzy with Jesus, that is a-ok with you!

This makes each person their own standard of the quality of their relationship with God.

 

[guanophore]

You are using a fallible document to reverse the meaning of an infallible statement.

No, we are using the teaching of the Magesterium to understand how the infallible teaching is to be applied in our day and age.

SAINT PIUS X- "Progress of dogmas is, in reality, nothing but corruption of dogmas … I absolutely reject the heretical doctrine of the evolution of dogma, as passing from one meaning to another, different from the sense in which the Church originally held it.

SAINT PIUS X- “Acts which spring from natural goodness have only the appearance of virtue; they cannot last of themselves, nor can they merit salvation.”

greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CcGe

I am not sure why you posted these quotes. Is there a point you are trying to make?

 

[guanophore]

No-----I don’t believe in OSAS. We must persevere to the end. We don’t know the outcome but God does. If you trust Him, He will not let you fail. King David fell into sin and God did not let him go. He sent a prophet to correct him. Peter denied Christ three times (no surprise to God) and He made him the pope.

Jesus said things in the New Testament that give reassurance.

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Paul said some things himself that give reassurance and confidence. He could have read his own letters if he had them.

Phil 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

This is the most Catholic post of yours I have ever read!

How refreshing!

 

[mpjw2]

This is the most Catholic post of yours I have ever read!

How refreshing!

it may very well be guanaphore.
but the most christian post I ever read on these forums was from tweetymom in another thread

I wish we would act like Christ would have us act me included in love and charity. We will never all agree until we see Jesus face to face and I believe it will be so glorious that we won’t care if we agree or not

God bless you tweetymom

now that is refreshing

God bless you all

 

[dragon]

No, we are using the teaching of the Magesterium to understand how the infallible teaching is to be applied in our day and age.

Could you tell me when the infallible teaching became into existence??

 

[guanophore]

.if for some reason you had a dramatic change of heart and decided to leave the catholic church and be a member of one of the many non catholic christian churches and did not return at the time of your death,

would you be

in rebellion to the catholic church teaching? destined for heaven or hell?

It seems that you are describing yourself, mpjw2. You left the Catholic Church, and appear to have had a dramatic and changing experience in your relationship with God. You don’t appear to have any intention of returning.

For some curious reason, you have now appeared in a Catholic forum, wanting to know what other Catholics think of your choice.

I am curious, why would it matter to you if we thought anything either way?

What need do you have that you are attempting to meet?

 

[guanophore]

Scripture also does not say you have to believe everything in the bible cover to cover to be saved either.

This is certainly true. Jesus commanded the Apostles to baptize and “teach all that I have commanded you”. They were well into doing this before any word of the NT was every written. The Faith unto salvation is that which we have received from the Aposltes. It was never intended to be contained within the books of the Bible. The Apostles did not even conceive of a NT.

The NT was not canonized until 382, and all those centuries, people were believing the gospel and getting saved.

The Church founded by Christ is not “bible based” as modern Evangelicals believe.

I however believe the bible cover to cover.

Actually, you believe what you think it says. Individual interpretations are as common as belly buttons!

there are some christians I met who can not believe the red sea departed, or Peter walked on water, or Jonah survived 3 days in a fish, or 3 men survived a fiery furnace not only that a 4th man appeared in the furnace.

I will stop here.

Certainly many have departed from the Apostolic Faith. I am glad to know that you have hung on to a lot of it, in spite of your separation.

Let me ask you, when it comes to saving your soul, if you believe Jesus died for your sins but do not believe the story of Jonah, do you believe God will not save you?

God is able to save the ignorant. He is not able to save the rebellious. A departure from any part of the revelation of Himself to us is a risk. He did not give a “list of essentials”. He directed “all that I have commanded” as the standard.

yes… Jesus died for his sins but the other thief did not have faith in Jesus. He did not believe in Jesus so he is not in heaven

the other thief challenged Jesus …if you are who you say you are save yourself and me

God bless

mpjw

An excellent example of rebellion! Thanks.

 

[guanophore]

PRmerger thank you for that but here is another classic example of taking scripture out of context.

No, he is not.

When you take one verse it may seem like it means something

then if you look a couple af verses before and/or after it may take on a different meaning,

then look at the chapter, the book, the book in context with another book.

Yes, of course.

in each case you may get a different meaning to what is read

And when you read it in the light of the faith which produced it, there is a different meaning. Since the Apostles taught that our salvation is not complete in this life, when we read these passages, we understand them to be a reference to the fact that, as long as we are in the flesh, the possibility exists that we can fall from grace, and fail to gain the inheritance that is held for us in heaven.

in 1Corinthians

1So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. 2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

by the 5th verse Paul is telling the apostles about the praises each will receive from God.

This is what you have been taught to believe, but there is nothing in this passage that points to that,and such an interpretation is contrary to the teaching of the Apostles. It is, in fact, part of a modern and “different” gospel that has been created to offset the Catholic Teaching that we must work out our salvation throughout our lives.

Jesus is clear that what is hidden in darkness is there because it wants to hide from the light of day. He was also clear that the hidden motives of men’s hearts are deceptive and evil. the reason we are not qualified to acquit ourselves is because we can have unconscious motives that are counter to God’s will for us.

 

[guanophore]

Just so we are clear distracted. I understand what catholics are telling me that the RCC is the true Church.

I do not believe the RCC is the true church.

you say to that?

thank you and God bless

The Catholic Church is not “Roman”.

I am curious about why it matters to you what people think of your beliefs?

 

[guanophore]

guanaphore good assumption about me thank you btw I am male lol

Thanks, and my apologies if indicated. Do you mean by “good assumption” that you are in agreement that you were poorly catechized? If yes…

Why do you keep asking the question about a person who “fully understands” the faith, and chooses to leave?

 

[dragon]

The Catholic Church is not “Roman”.

I do not know where you got your information, but it is the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[ron77nyc]

So if you were a teenager and told your monsignor, “I am not justified by my own works” you’re saying your monsignor would have said, “The CC teaches that you are”???

First let me point out that the monsignor probably would have put his cigar out in my eye if I told him “I am not justified by my works.” The word “justified” was not in the Catholic vocabulary. We were taught that we had to go to confession on Saturday, Mass on Sunday and don’t eat meat on Friday. The word “faith” was not part of our vocabulary either. Faith in Jesus was not a necessity. You just had to keep receiving the sacraments and hope that you died before you committed your next sin. This is what I mean by a religious system of salvation. It didn’t matter if you were a Christian or not. If you followed the rules you were good. If not, you were bad.

 

[ron77nyc]

This is the most Catholic post of yours I have ever read!

How refreshing!

Not all Protestants believe in OSAS or eternal security. If you read Luther’s catechism you’ll see that he didn’t teach that.

Prepared by Dr. Martin Luther for those who intend to go to the Sacrament

[The “Christian Questions with Their Answers,” designating Luther as the author, first appeared in an edition of the Small Catechism in 1551, five years after Luther’s death].

After confession and instruction in the Ten Commandments, the Creed, the Lord’s Prayer, and the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, the pastor may ask, or Christians may ask themselves these questions:

1. Do you believe that you are a sinner?
   Yes, I believe it. I am a sinner.
2. How do you know this?
   From the Ten Commandments, which I have not kept.
3. Are you sorry for your sins?
   Yes, I am sorry that I have sinned against God.
4. What have you deserved from God because of your sins?
   His wrath and displeasure, temporal death, and eternal damnation. See Romans 6:21,23.
   **5. Do you hope to be saved?
   Yes, that is my hope. **

 

[tweetymom]

A lot of us were poorly catechized, and learned more in Bible study. It is not uncommon. I thought you said you were teaching RCIA.

I know you believe this. The Truth is that you believe 100% what you think the Bible says. If you are not willing to understand what is written from the point of view of those who wrote it, then you will stray from the Truth.

Basically what you are saying is that the Truth does not really matter. Each to his own, as long as we feel all warm and fuzzy with Jesus.

Well, why come to a Catholic Forum and present yourself as Catholic? If you really think that Catholicism has nothing better to offer, why waste your time?

“Protestant or whatever works” ?!

And how do you determine what “works”? What does it mean for it to “work”?

This does not sound like an Apostolic approach to me. I don’t see Paul going all over the known world announcing “Protestant or whatever works”.

I don’t think anyone here has said otherwise.

Basically you are saying that everyone should walk according to their own consciene as they see fit. So long as one is feeling warm and fuzzy with Jesus, that is a-ok with you!

This makes each person their own standard of the quality of their relationship with God.

I came to CAF because I thought (silly of me) there would be a lot of Christian fellowship and Love. I have found it to be quite the opposite. I believe 100% and then some what I know the Bible teaches.

Whatever works means that you have to work out your own salvation, not the CC or any other Church by the way. Salvation is a personal thing between you and God. And you are responsible for the quality for you relationship with God. And if you get a warm and fuzzy feeling by following God so what? Do you think there is no joy in following Christ?

And I did say I taught in RCIA. But also taught In BSF before returning to CC. I never taught anything in RCIA that wasn’t the teaching of the CC. Many leaders in there made light of the Bible saying it was only a book of stories and that you had to take them in context. I have been in there for 6 years and I finally quit because of this and somethings that are not taught correctly about CC. If you are going to teach it regardless if you agree or not teach what the CC says. So what is taught is a watered down version.

I may not agree about everything but I will teach what the CC says to others coming into the Church. And you are willing to 100% beleive that what the CC teaches is true then great!!!

So peace and Christs love be with you:thumbsup:

 

[ron77nyc]

You are using a fallible document to reverse the meaning of an infallible statement.

SAINT PIUS X- "Progress of dogmas is, in reality, nothing but corruption of dogmas … I absolutely reject the heretical doctrine of the evolution of dogma, as passing from one meaning to another, different from the sense in which the Church originally held it.

You are also excluded from salvation according to Benedict XV.

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

 

[guanophore]

it may very well be guanaphore.
but the most christian post I ever read on these forums was from tweetymom in another thread

I wish we would act like Christ would have us act me included in love and charity. We will never all agree until we see Jesus face to face and I believe it will be so glorious that we won’t care if we agree or not

God bless you tweetymom

now that is refreshing

God bless you all

While I appreciate her sentiment, and agree that we all must strive to act in love and charity, it is not loving to confirm people in error.

If unity in this life were not possible, it would not have been commanded to us. The Spirit of God is ready, willing, and able to unite us. We are to strive for unity in the bond of peace. Toi say that we cannot agree until the next life is, in my opinion, bailing out of our responsibilities to seek the truth and resolve our differences.

It is the same as saying that we cannot avoid sin in this life, so don’t expect to be able to do so. This is a grievious error.

 

[guanophore]

Could you tell me when the infallible teaching became into existence??

All of the Catholic infallible teachings are based upon Christ. We are not a “bible based” church, as are modern evangelical ecclesial communities. It was Jesus who taught that He is the vine,and we are the branches, and that without Him, we can do nothing. It was He who revealed to the Aposltes that there is no separation between Himself,and His Holy Bride, the Church. There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved. It was He who founded ONE CHURCH, and makes all those who are baptized into it members of HIS ONE BODY. One cannot be saved, without also being a member of His ONE BODY, the Church. There is only One Church founded by Him. all the others are founded by men, and are not recognized as true Churches.

All that has been written on this matter since the time of Christ has been for the purpose of applying HIs teaching and clarifying it’s meaning.

Catholics believe that there is One Divine Deposit of Faith that was given once for all to the Church. We beleive that public revelation closed with the death of the last Apostle. Nothing can be “added” to that Divine Deposit.

 

[guanophore]

I do not know where you got your information, but it is the Roman Catholic Church.

I studied history.

It has been known as the “Roman” Catholic Church in Europe since the time of the Reformation. The Refomers used the word “Roman” in an insulting manner, and the Catholics of the Latin Rite received it as a compliment. It meant they were in union with the successor of Peter in Rome.

Most Latin Catholics, along with Protestants emanating from the Reformers, have no clue that there are 22 other non-Roman Catholic Rites that are also in union with the Bishop of Rome.

They were not insulted as “papists” the way the Latin Catholics were because they did not have the political power that Latin Rite Catholics had in Europe. The secular power was one of the main factors driving the Reformation. Eastern Catholics have not had this kind of secular authority since the fall of the Empire.

The Catholic Church is not “Roman”.

 

[mpjw2]

guanaphore, thank you. I was waiting for someone to ask your exact question. I will be
happy to answer

mpjw2
.

if for some reason you had a dramatic change of heart and decided to leave the catholic church and be a member of one of the many non catholic christian churches and did not return at the time of your death,

would you be

in rebellion to the catholic church teaching? destined for heaven or hell?

It seems that you are describing yourself, mpjw2.

Yes I am

You left the Catholic Church, and appear to have had a dramatic and changing experience in your relationship with God.

Your perception is correct

I feel closer to God now than I ever did as a catholic

As a catholic I realize now I had no faith or feel the love of God

everything I did was out of obligation. I was told I had to ___________, in order to please God

fill in the blank with anything church related and you will be correct.

Today, the reason I _______________, is because of my love, respect and appreciation of God for how He illustrated His love for me and the sacrifice He made so I do not have to pay the price, hell, for the sins I have committed and will commit in my life.

I think about this verse when I realize God’s sacrifice…

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:13

This verse describes God and Jesus’ love and sacrifiace for all of us.
Not only that but as a catholic I never considered Jesus as a friend.

Jesus layed down His life for all of us, His friends.

Before you read this, just curious did you ever tell anyone Jesus is your best friend?
I never did as a catholic because I never realized He was.

Not only did He lay down His life but sinless Jesus was without sin when He was nailed to the cross.

However, at the time of His death on the cross He had the weight of sin on Him, how you may ask?

Jesus took upon Himself*** all ***the sins of mankind…past, present and future and temporarily paid the ransom, hell, for our sins so that we may have eternal life in heaven with Him and not have to pay the price of what we deserve, hell.

This is the verse to support my statement.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:6

also

I have been crucified (all my sins of my life past and present) with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, **I live by faith **in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20

You don’t appear to have any intention of returning.

You are absolutely correct

For some curious reason, you have now appeared in a Catholic forum, wanting to know what other Catholics think of your choice.

yes…that is one of the reasons I am here

I am curious, why would it matter to you if we thought anything either way?

What need do you have that you are attempting to meet?

guanaphore, as a catholic I did have a belief that only catholics go to heaven…no salvation outside the Catholic church

As you see from this thread achris and william and the release from the vatican, which claims my church is defective, support that belief
I would guess achris and william are not the only two in the world who do.

I am here to try to get a complete understanding of what the Catholic church teaches

this Is an area of the catholic faith that i reazlize i did not fully understand and to this day still do not.

Another reason is personal but I do not mind sharing.

My mom is very much catholic and when I try to discuss with her the reason I left the catholic church, it is hard for her to understand. when i try to discuss with her the subject of salvation…it is a closed door discussion…so I do not go there with her.

another is I have co workers who are catholic.

I like to have a discussion about our faiths and know what I am talking about if the subject of salvation comes up.

so in review the two scenarios are

**non catholic christians who are aware of the catholic faith and will die non catholic

are they ignorant or in rebellion?

destined for heaven or hell?

OR

non catholic christians like me who left and will die a non catholic christian

are we ignorant or in rebellion?

destined for heaven or hell?**

I am afraid Catholics as a whole are not even sure of the answer to these questions

the only answer so far is all protestants are destined for hell (achris and william) or this is for God to judge (you and PRmerger)

Bottom line is this there are non christians looking in which I am concerned about, and I hope you all are too, not just in the catholic community but the whole family of christianity

How do you believe a non christian feels when they see the the Catholic community post to another (anti-catholic) or not agreeing over an important subject like eternal life or see us non catholics in strong debates with this community?

Non christians I believe need to see love not criticism which some posts very much give the impression of.

I do not mind saying that I believe Jesus and the angels are rejocing in heaven over tweetymom’s posts.

I do not even know her and I can feel Jesus’ love all over her posts.

these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
1 Corinthians 13:13

I recall my daughter’s favorite verses when she was 10 years old

But the fruit of the Spirit is*** love***, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. … Galatians 5:22-23

From tweetymom’s post, she expresses everyone of them

guanaphore, why am I also here?

this thread has over 700 posts in over a months time

now look at this thread

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5697690#post5697690

I pray and have a dream that the “Jesus’ church of christian love thread” will grow beyond anyone’s expectations

Let’s all show Jesus how much we believe His love is the greatest.

May God’s peace be with all of you

mpjw2

 

[guanophore]

First let me point out that the monsignor probably would have put his cigar out in my eye if I told him “I am not justified by my works.”

That seems pretty harsh.

But, the Apostles taught that our works to justify us, so his reaction, though excessive, would be understandible.

The word “justified” was not in the Catholic vocabulary.

This is an absurd statement. The NT is a collection of Catholic books. It has this word throughout! I suggest you try reading the Joint Declaration on Justification, if you think this word is not Catholic.

I can concede that you may not have come across it during your formation.

We were taught that we had to go to confession on Saturday, Mass on Sunday and don’t eat meat on Friday.

Yes, I was taught the same thing.

The word “faith” was not part of our vocabulary either. Faith in Jesus was not a necessity. You just had to keep receiving the sacraments and hope that you died before you committed your next sin. This is what I mean by a religious system of salvation. It didn’t matter if you were a Christian or not. If you followed the rules you were good. If not, you were bad.

I understand what you are saying. However, now I can see that faith and working with grace is very much a part of every Mass. It is there, I just did not see it.

You are also right about a religious system that has a form of godliness, but not the power thereof.

I also grew up with this same notion, that if I followed the rules and was 'a good Catholic" I “might” be saved, but if I did not, I would go to hell. I never understood grace at all.

This is why I urge you so strongly to become part of the solution. We can prevent young people from being misled as we were,and educate them properly in the faith, so that they do not have to suffer what we have.