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gilliam
Guest
not sure where you got your history, but you should ask for your money back
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Mike_Olson
Guest
I’m sorry but the great Arsenal of Democracy shouldn’t start wars. 
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Jeremy
Guest
gilliam, If you are interested in having a real discussion then please provide complete responses and not just one line “zingers”. Thank you 
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gilliam
Guest
Where did you get this sound bite? Couldn’t be the same place the Islamofacists get theirs, could it?
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Mike_Olson
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It’s my opinion take it or leave it. Judgemental aren’t we? :tsktsk: God bless you!
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Edwin1961
Guest
I think that we should not invade.
Let us see what happens with the elections in Iraq. And let us see what happens with the Palinstinians newly elected government.
With Afghanistan, Palestine, elections over and Iraq elections soon to be, stirring the hornest nest called Iran is a bad move.
Democracy needs to be stable in the Middle East and after than, the Iranians will revolt from within.
If we bomb Iran, I believe we will have the end of the world.
Let us see what happens with the elections in Iraq. And let us see what happens with the Palinstinians newly elected government.
With Afghanistan, Palestine, elections over and Iraq elections soon to be, stirring the hornest nest called Iran is a bad move.
Democracy needs to be stable in the Middle East and after than, the Iranians will revolt from within.
If we bomb Iran, I believe we will have the end of the world.
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gilliam
Guest
Yes, because there is nothing, anywhere, that says we shouldn’t erraticate evil where it is before it erraticates the innocent. No matter how much people love to judge others, it is not Christian to think in this way. We, as Catholics, and Christians, are called to protect the innocent. To preach us to hold back, only emboldens the evil one.
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Fitz
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I went to the BBC like Fighting Fat sent me on an earlier post. I happened to find an article that was talking about Britian’s and the US failure to end Auschwitz sooner. We could have, and we didn’t Why is it that we can’t learn from the mistakes of the past? We should as gilliam says be prepared to eradicate evil where it is. Read the link: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4175045.stm
Excerpt:
Double standards?
Laurence Rees - writer and producer of the BBC’s Auschwitz series - says the lack of proper consideration given to bombing the camp and a “dismissive tone” in some of the documents of the time give the sense that “no-one was bothered enough to make bombing Auschwitz a priority”.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40722000/jpg/_40722457_afp_auschwitzwire203.jpg A plan to drop weapons to the camp to assist a rebellion was considered
“If they were exterminating British prisoners of war do we seriously think that we wouldn’t have done all we could to stop it?” he asks.
But Rees also says that dwelling on the bombing of Auschwitz, where the killings stopped in November 1944, is a distraction from the “far more important question” of why the Allies failed to do more to save the Jews from Nazi persecution.
The Simon Wiesenthal Center (SWC) - named after a death camp survivor who became a Nazi-hunter - says the Allies failed to take practical steps that could have helped many of Hitler’s victims.
Lessons of the past
The SWC says the UK and the US could have relaxed stringent immigration policies to allow refugees a safe haven, and sent frequent and unequivocal warnings to Germany that its leaders would be held accountable.
But while no-one blames anyone other than the Nazis for the horrors of the Holocaust, the debate over what could or should have been done seems certain to continue.
In the words of Auschwitz survivor Kitty Hart-Moxon: “Being the worst example, the Holocaust is central to understanding the causes of the genocides that have occurred in many parts of the world since the end of the World War II.”
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Mike_Olson
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I am sure this will inflame things but…
So it is up to you to decide who is innocent? War will kill innocent Iranians will it not or is the whole nation evil? I think not. I agree with what we are doing in Afganistan after all they had terrorist camps there and the Taliban are sympathtic with terror. The terrorists started the war and were based there. We kill innocents in Iraq too. Two wrongs don’t make a right. I am sorry if I offend you. I hope you find it in your heart to forgive. God bless!
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gilliam
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We do not intentially seek to kill innocents. I think you know this. In Iraq we have an enemy who tells people that if they dare to vote they will be hunted down and killed like dogs. Then I think it is pretty clear who the evil one is in Iraq and it is not us. If that is not clear to you, please tell me how can I make it clear to you.
I think it is becoming more and more clear to the rest of the world, as the terrorists in Iraq have now declared war on democracy and freedom.
Read this article: Minutemen
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Brad
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I agree with you on #2. On #1, it may not have been mass genocide but Sadaam was responsible for killing 500,000 twice for random reasons. In the case of mass genocide or dictator tyrant killing, I would argue that a pattern of death indicates continuing death unless intervention occurs from within or without.
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Brad
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So you are opposed to military defense of life in all circumstances or are you suggesting Bush invoke the military to shut down all Planned Parenthood facilities?
Because we allow the killing of innocent babies, we should not try to save other innocent life? Should we just let anarcy reign?
I don’t understand your argument. Right things must be done even if wrong things continue. If you don’t do anything right, wrong will prevail.
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maggiec
Guest
I don’t want to say I told you so but…
Before Bush was re elected I had posted several times that a war with Iran was more than a possibility.
I know I haven’t posted much since after the election. We have been more than a little busy caring for 6 year old twin girls and their older sister (7) :whacky: My daughter left for for the air force duty that we knew was coming. What a challange after my husband and I enjoying each others company for the last 5 years without much interruption. We had a little good news, my son in law came back from Iraq on Dec 17 at least he was home for Christmas which meant so much to all of us here. We were told 5 days ago that he will leave for that area again 1 March.
The inevitable will happen. all we can do is pray that God will guide us, and protect us from whatever is to come.
God bless you all
maggiec
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TPJCatholic
Guest
Brad,
There is a valid point to be made regarding abortion. We murder (legally) unborn babies at a rate of 4,000 per day in the United States alone…we have allowed the slaughter of some 45,000,000 people over the last 31 years and counting…that is nearly the entire population of Iran! We turn a blind-eye towards the holocaust that goes on in our own backyard, while we look around the globe trying to force our sense of “right and wrong” about other nations. Yet, neither Iraq, nor Iran, is guilty of 45,000,000 murders over 31 years. I think we would do ourselves much good if we turned our self righteousness towards our own nation.
There is a valid point to be made regarding abortion. We murder (legally) unborn babies at a rate of 4,000 per day in the United States alone…we have allowed the slaughter of some 45,000,000 people over the last 31 years and counting…that is nearly the entire population of Iran! We turn a blind-eye towards the holocaust that goes on in our own backyard, while we look around the globe trying to force our sense of “right and wrong” about other nations. Yet, neither Iraq, nor Iran, is guilty of 45,000,000 murders over 31 years. I think we would do ourselves much good if we turned our self righteousness towards our own nation.
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Mike_Olson
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gilliam
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Mike_Olson said:
Thanks, Mike. Here is another article for your consideration to show where I am coming from:
Civil Rights Movement
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miguel
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Yes.
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miguel
Guest
Exactly. Take the beam out of your own eye. Then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your neighbor’s.
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Fitz
Guest
We have threads on abortion, and I don’t think we should be confusing the two in this discussion. Most don’t feel we should invade Iran, and I actually thought the original poster was trying to say that we would blindly do so. I don’t think we will, nor would I ever expect us to blindly do anything. I am not all for war as most of us aren’t.
However, one poster here, I think TPJCatholic said that 70% of the Iranians are in favor of US. I am not sure what that means. I think the students were happy with President Bush’s speech because they want the idealistic freedom that he spoke of. I don’t think the gevernment of Iran is in favor of the US at all. I don’t think that they have helped in any way during this effort to free Iraq of the dictator.
If a majority of the Iranians want to overthrow their type of government, then how will this happen? I am not advocating what happened in Iran, but will the rest of Europe help put pressure on the Iranian Government? The people need to be listened. Otherwise, more insurgents rise up agains all the West- not just the US.
However, one poster here, I think TPJCatholic said that 70% of the Iranians are in favor of US. I am not sure what that means. I think the students were happy with President Bush’s speech because they want the idealistic freedom that he spoke of. I don’t think the gevernment of Iran is in favor of the US at all. I don’t think that they have helped in any way during this effort to free Iraq of the dictator.
If a majority of the Iranians want to overthrow their type of government, then how will this happen? I am not advocating what happened in Iran, but will the rest of Europe help put pressure on the Iranian Government? The people need to be listened. Otherwise, more insurgents rise up agains all the West- not just the US.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
FITZ,
Supposedly 70% of Iranian citizens support the United States efforts to oust tyrants in their region, including their own country. They have a highly favorable view of the west because they want to have similar freedoms. You are quite correct when you say the Iranian government does not like the United States, they have been an enemy of ours for many years…they started the era of terrorism when they took our people hostage in 1979 (year ?). I disagree that it is inappropriate to discuss this topic along with abortion–we go about conducting out own form of terrorism everyday, we call it legal and we call it personal choice, so we like to think of ourselves as being high and mighty. However, no country in the world (in recent times) has slaughtered 45,000,000 people and called it choice! While I am no advocate of violence of anykind, I do feel we need to clean our own house before we proceed to force other countries to clean their’s. It is certainly worth the effort to help the Iranian citizens in any way we can, it is certainly worth while to “take out” any authenticated nuclear sites Iran has…yet invasion should not be an option.
Supposedly 70% of Iranian citizens support the United States efforts to oust tyrants in their region, including their own country. They have a highly favorable view of the west because they want to have similar freedoms. You are quite correct when you say the Iranian government does not like the United States, they have been an enemy of ours for many years…they started the era of terrorism when they took our people hostage in 1979 (year ?). I disagree that it is inappropriate to discuss this topic along with abortion–we go about conducting out own form of terrorism everyday, we call it legal and we call it personal choice, so we like to think of ourselves as being high and mighty. However, no country in the world (in recent times) has slaughtered 45,000,000 people and called it choice! While I am no advocate of violence of anykind, I do feel we need to clean our own house before we proceed to force other countries to clean their’s. It is certainly worth the effort to help the Iranian citizens in any way we can, it is certainly worth while to “take out” any authenticated nuclear sites Iran has…yet invasion should not be an option.
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