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Agathon
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Irreversible, but not unending.
Does Hell Exist? Pope Francis Says No (Warning: This title is misleading)
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Agathon
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He didn’t turn the other cheek at the house of Annas however. He said, “If I said anything wrong, show Me the wrong. But if not, why do you hit Me?”
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Luke6_37
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Annihilation lasts forever - unless you believe in reincarnation.Luke6_37:
Irreversible, but not unending.
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Agathon
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It ends when the person is, ahem, ANNIHILATED.
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Luke6_37
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The punishing ends, but the effect of the punishment does not. That is why it is both just and merciful.Luke6_37:
It ends when the person is, ahem, ANNIHILATED.
Even if it is as you say, that damnation is something a person brings upon themselves, a God of mercy and compassion would still love that person. Just as I would not want my child to suffer for all eternity even if it were his or her own fault, God does not want us to suffer for no purpose. God sustains our existence through love…
“This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists, it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence.” - (CCC #27)
…but if we utterly reject him, God is not going to force that love upon us. He will withdraw the love that sustains our existence. To be totally separate from God’s love is to cease to exist.
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angel12
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Yes, it is. That’s why it’s so sad that you are so determined to ignore everything the Holy Father has actually said, for years, about the Devil and Hell. Instead, you prefer to complain about something he did not say, and which has been addressed by the Vatican.
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Agathon
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As I said earlier, Love can soothe you but He can also burn you.
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Agathon
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If he didn’t say it, why didn’t he show his original statement?
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angel12
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Because, as the Vatican pointed out, this was not an interview. There is no “statement.”
Again, His Holiness has spoken many times about the Devil and Hell. His position is clear, except to those who prefer not to listen to him.
Again, His Holiness has spoken many times about the Devil and Hell. His position is clear, except to those who prefer not to listen to him.
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Agathon
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He needs to make an exception; his silence is scandalizing everyone.
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Luke6_37
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Says who??angel12:
He needs to make an exception; his silence is scandalizing everyone.
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kyrie03
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Yes, it IS unfortunate that anyone would ignore the important teachings of Our Holy Father as stated over the years and instead choose to complain and nitpick. If that is the impression I gave you or anyone, I apologize!
Maybe you are correct. People are able to see through the inaccurate recollections of the atheist and know that the Pope and the Church teach otherwise because they have stated things clearly in the past? Perhaps very few chose to even read the Headline plastered all over papers and internet for a week and only a minuscule few (perhaps none) had their faith diminished? And that the real travesty is continuing the discussion - a scandalous attack on Our Holy Father to suggest he should clarify further?
ANY criticism directed towards lawful authority, constructive or otherwise, is dangerous. You may not believe me, but I (and probably many others) am EXTREMELY uncomfortable speaking out. The Pope is the Teacher and Ruler of the Church. I am just a member of the Mystical Body of Christ –attempting to preserve whole and unadulterated the unchangeable Truths for future generations. Those Truths are now, more than at any other time in history, debated, attacked, and diminished -not only by those outside the Church, but also by those in authority within the Church. (continued…)
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kyrie03
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You may disagree with the analysis, or not be aware of anyone experiencing a loss of faith from being told certain truths are now compatible with new “truths”, but know -that this is the sole reason for any perceived critique.
The Shepherds have staffs for a reason – to correct and keep the flock safe. The purpose of the Church is to bring men to eternal salvation. To be told that the Shepherd/s recognize and ARE keeping us free from all dangers to salvation (not only the doctrine on Hell) because they’ve stated things clearly in the past and it is sufficient to protect from the present danger – may be true for some, but not for many. (just look at the hemorrhaging from the Church in formerly Catholic Mexico and South America or Europe!) To be told that the dangers are no longer dangerous and that the Church is now allowing for alternative understandings -is false. There is only one Way, Truth, and Life…not multiple variations at conflict with each other or ambiguously muddled together under a big tent of understanding. I am not the only parent or teacher witnessing children and adults heavily influenced by the ambiguities and contradictions being presented as legitimate “options”. Can I not request the staff be put to strong and proper use for the safety of the flock? Can a lamb not cry out in alarm in hope that it might rouse the Shepherd/s?
I apologize if I have scandalized or misled any to believe I have the right to challenge lawful authority. It is imperative to KNOW the Truths of the Faith, to live them, to love God and neighbor, and to submit to lawful authority in all things not sinful. May God, through the prayers of the Most Holy Theotokos, have mercy on us all!
The Shepherds have staffs for a reason – to correct and keep the flock safe. The purpose of the Church is to bring men to eternal salvation. To be told that the Shepherd/s recognize and ARE keeping us free from all dangers to salvation (not only the doctrine on Hell) because they’ve stated things clearly in the past and it is sufficient to protect from the present danger – may be true for some, but not for many. (just look at the hemorrhaging from the Church in formerly Catholic Mexico and South America or Europe!) To be told that the dangers are no longer dangerous and that the Church is now allowing for alternative understandings -is false. There is only one Way, Truth, and Life…not multiple variations at conflict with each other or ambiguously muddled together under a big tent of understanding. I am not the only parent or teacher witnessing children and adults heavily influenced by the ambiguities and contradictions being presented as legitimate “options”. Can I not request the staff be put to strong and proper use for the safety of the flock? Can a lamb not cry out in alarm in hope that it might rouse the Shepherd/s?
I apologize if I have scandalized or misled any to believe I have the right to challenge lawful authority. It is imperative to KNOW the Truths of the Faith, to live them, to love God and neighbor, and to submit to lawful authority in all things not sinful. May God, through the prayers of the Most Holy Theotokos, have mercy on us all!
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pnewton
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Not me. I am not scandalized in the least. But then, I don’t accept news of the Catholic faith from atheists.
I would like to even give this man a little benefit of the doubt. He is 94 years old. Why he is still allowed to publish, conversation, from memory, with no notes, is beyond me.
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Luke6_37
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You seem very insecure in your relationship with the Lord. I wish you could just relax a bit and trust that he loves you and things will be fine.
Spend some time reading the Gospels and pay attention to what the King does as much as what he says. He loves being with the ordinary people. The salt of the earth kind of folks. The unrefined masses. He loves them in all their diversity and ignorance. They sense this and love him too. They are attracted to him. This is YHWH among his people.
Pope Francis preaches this Gospel ALL the time. In the example that he sets, in the people he visits, in the common way he speaks. I really think he’s channelling Christ. People love him! Children trust him. He is gathering the tribes, and that may mean things are going to change.
Don’t be like the Pharisees.
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Luke6_37
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Doctrinal disputes are not the reason why most people are leaving. The fastest growing denomination are the “Nones” or people who report no affiliation to any religious tradition.
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kyrie03
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Luke- I’ve gotta call your bluff. You don’t call yourself Catholic, don’t seem to believe in the authority of Our Holy Father in the same way as Catholics , don’t uphold the same doctrines as Catholics, and are distracting from any meaningful conversation regarding the topic at hand. May God bless you!
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Luke6_37
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Bluff? What bluff?
1 - The topic of the thread is the Pope’s remarks regarding Hell. My comments directly address the content of those comments.
2 - I support the Holy Father and criticize his enemies. That includes fringe Catholics who are living in the past and think they are theirs is the only legitimate way to be a faithful member of the Body of Christ.
It is this last group who are creating all the trouble in the Church. They are intolerant to the point of threatening schism. They ceaselessly criticize the Holy Father and faithful clergy and seek to bully them around. That’s the real scandal.
That is far more damaging to the Church than expressing a diverse opinion about an esoteric eschatological doctrine.
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Luke6_37
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That may be why He withdraws his love. To spare them the pain. The Catechism says God’s love sustains our existence. So it logically follows that without it we would cease to exist.Luke6_37:
As I said earlier, Love can soothe you but He can also burn you.
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billy15
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It’s really, really sad to see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, declarations of Ecumenical Councils and the witness of the Church Fathers twisted so much in this thread. Right down to the post above. Never have I met a Catholic, let alone any other Christian, that shares the views expressed here by Luke. Jehovah’s Witnesses, yes. Christians? No. My Evangelical friend and I disagree on several things regarding our Christian faith, but I can confidently say (not just because of this thread) that I have more in common with him as far as the orthodox faith goes.
Today is Divine Mercy Sunday, and I came across a great reminder from a Monsignor friend… He obviously posted the following in reference to the controversy here. This’ll be my last post here, I don’t need the last word, so someone else can take it if they really want it. Obviously St Faustinas revelations were private and don’t belong to public revelation. That is a given. Still, the imprimatur on her compiled diary show that there is nothing incompatible with what has been publicly revealed by Christ as Head of the Church. I already realize the imprimatur is not an endorsement. But again, nothing revealed in this saint’s diaries are incompatible with what is taught by the Catholic Church. So for whoever is still left checking in on this, consider this…
What the Church teaches about hell isn’t esoteric; it can be understood by anyone. Either we lovingly obey God and live with him forever, or we reject God and suffer apart from him for eternity. It’s pretty simple. St. Faustina describes her vision of hell. It doesn’t sound like Luke’s description, but like that of the description given by the Church Fathers, that given by the Catechism, that given by Sacred Tradition, and that given by a thorough and unbiased reading of Sacred Scripture. Bl. Michael Sopocko also found no error in St. Faustina’s writings. Nor did the postulator for her cause, Archbishop Andrew M. Deskur, when he said " I am fully aware that I am introducing a document of Catholic mysticism of exceptional worth… for the Universal Church." So below is her description. Compare it to what other things were written in this thread. Do we put more faith in the views given by saints and blesseds, bishops and clergy, and Church Fathers in unity with the clear teaching of the Church on this subject, or do we put more faith in the “fringe” views of Luke?
Today is Divine Mercy Sunday, and I came across a great reminder from a Monsignor friend… He obviously posted the following in reference to the controversy here. This’ll be my last post here, I don’t need the last word, so someone else can take it if they really want it. Obviously St Faustinas revelations were private and don’t belong to public revelation. That is a given. Still, the imprimatur on her compiled diary show that there is nothing incompatible with what has been publicly revealed by Christ as Head of the Church. I already realize the imprimatur is not an endorsement. But again, nothing revealed in this saint’s diaries are incompatible with what is taught by the Catholic Church. So for whoever is still left checking in on this, consider this…
What the Church teaches about hell isn’t esoteric; it can be understood by anyone. Either we lovingly obey God and live with him forever, or we reject God and suffer apart from him for eternity. It’s pretty simple. St. Faustina describes her vision of hell. It doesn’t sound like Luke’s description, but like that of the description given by the Church Fathers, that given by the Catechism, that given by Sacred Tradition, and that given by a thorough and unbiased reading of Sacred Scripture. Bl. Michael Sopocko also found no error in St. Faustina’s writings. Nor did the postulator for her cause, Archbishop Andrew M. Deskur, when he said " I am fully aware that I am introducing a document of Catholic mysticism of exceptional worth… for the Universal Church." So below is her description. Compare it to what other things were written in this thread. Do we put more faith in the views given by saints and blesseds, bishops and clergy, and Church Fathers in unity with the clear teaching of the Church on this subject, or do we put more faith in the “fringe” views of Luke?
Thank God though, that His mercy is great! Thank God for this feast today, and I pray that none of us may suffer being separated from God!
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