Does Hell Exist? Pope Francis Says No (Warning: This title is misleading)

[billy15]

As can be seen here, the word apollumi can be read in this way: to "cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end. A form of this word,apolesai, is used specifically in Matt 10:28, and it is also used in Luke 4:34 and in Mark 1:24. See below why this is important.

(5) In fact we know it does NOT refer to total extinction of being because the same word is used of DEMONS as in Lk 4:34; Mk 1:24. “Have you come to DESTROY us?” EQUALS “Have you come here to TORMENT us before the time?” See Mt 8:29; Mk 5:7; Lk 8:28 (the NIV uses the stronger word “torture” in these texts); and Revelation 9:5; 11:10…

The fate of demons is eternal torment. Hence, “destroy” cannot mean annihilation or total extinction in this context.

(6) As Dr. Robert Morey points out also in his exhaustive book on the subject DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE (Bethany House, 1984) the Bible uses the word “cast” ballw as the synonym for “destroy” apollumi in the parallel text Luke 12:4-5 – “CAST into hell” (Lk 12:5) EQUALS "DESTROY…in hell" (Mt 10:28).

The wicked are “cast” or “destroyed” (delivered up unto eternal misery). Hence, apollumi cannot mean extinction or annihilation. Matthew 10:28 clinches it. The soul cannot be “killed” but is immortal.

Now seeing what the Greek actually means shines significant light on the teaching of the Church. But as Pnewton pointed out:

We know of some euphemisms because of their commonality, but let’s be realistic. It has been a long time since that generation. That is why it is needed and logical that Jesus established a Church as a continual guide. It is also why no doctrine should be built on a word… that is why authority beyond just Scripture is necessary.

He’s absolutely right. The Church interprets Scripture. In his chapter on hell from “Why We’re Catholic”, Trent Horn has this to say (p. 239, footnote 191) on the whole subject:

In contrast to the traditional view of hell, “annihilationists” say hell is temporary and God will eventually destroy the damned. They… argue that the Greek word rendered “punishment”, kolasin, is derived from a word that means to “prune” or “cut off”. Therefore, hell is just separation from God by being annihilated or destroyed. It is not eternal, conscious punishment. But analyzing a word’s meaning from its etymology can lead to gross errors. After all, the word “virtue” is derived from the Latin vir, which means “man”, but that doesn’t mean all virtuous people are “manly” people. As any Greek dictionary will tell you, kolasin just means “punishment” and kolasin aionion means “eternal” or “everlasting punishment”.

Words have meanings, but it can be obscured over time. It’s best to trust the pronouncements of the Church on this issue, and the one given from Constantinople II is pretty clear. But even without that specific teaching and anathema, a reading of Scripture which is faithful to the Magisterium throughout the ages will show that annihilationism and conditional immortality is not consonant with what has been revealed by the Church.

 

[Luke6_37]

So here’s what Constantinople II said in it’s 9th anathema against Origen:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema.

Anathema to Origen and to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his nefarious and execrable and wicked doctrine and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, or defends these opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them.

This does not apply.

Origen taught Universalism. That is not the same thing at all. The problem with Universalism is that it denies a free choice. Scripture repeatedly makes it clear that there is a free choice to be made by the person between Life and DEATH…

…not Life and Eternal Conscious Torment.

So your big clincher turns out to be a bait and switch.

Annihilationalism or Conditional Immortality has never been condemned by the Church. At the moment, it’s status is that of a legitimate alternative opinion (i.e., theologumena) to a belief in Eternal Conscious Torment - which is NOT dogma either.

CI & ECT are two possibilities of what may happen to a soul who rejects God’s will. Augustine made ECT popular in the 5th century, but that doesn’t make it right. CI can be traced back to the Apostolic Fathers, so it’s not some recent innovation. It may not be the dominant view at the moment, but it is not heresy.

I’m not an big fan of Augustine. I think he knew too little about first century Judaism and too much about Greek philosophy and Manichieism. So I am glad to discover other ancient perspectives that I find to be more consistent with the Gospel.

Bottom line is we can disagree about this and still both be orthodox.

 

[BlackFriar]

As some have stated, Von Balthasar’s theology is suspect.

Not by Pope Benedict he isn’t - VB is his favourite theologian.
That’s good enough recommendation for me.
Don’t believe every gossip you hear.

 

[KMG]

The soul cannot be “annihilated”. It is immortal. It cannot be destroyed. Again, basic Catholic dogma.

 

[Agathon]

Not by Pope Benedict he isn’t - VB is his favourite theologian.

That’s good enough recommendation for me.

Don’t believe every gossip you hear.

This is coming from someone who has actually read his work, so NO, it’s not gossip.

Library : The Inflated Reputation of Hans Urs von Balthasar

The Inflated Reputation of Hans Urs von Balthasar In this article Regis Scanlon investigates the widely revered theological ideas of Hans Urs von Balthasar, the late Swiss Catholic theologian, especially concerning the notion of universal salvation.

www.catholicculture.org

 

[Agathon]

Scripture repeatedly makes it clear that there is a free choice to be made by the person between Life and DEATH…

Which is eternal.

 

[Agathon]

CI can be traced back to the Apostolic Fathers

Any quotes?

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

CI can be traced back to the Apostolic Fathers

Any quotes?

This is a popular one…

“…inasmuch as all things that have been made had a beginning when they were formed, but endure as long as God wills that they should have an existence and continuance… For life does not arise from us, nor from our own nature; but it is bestowed according to the grace of God. And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever.” - Irenæus, Against Heresies

Those who hold to the ECT view of Hell interpret “deprives himself of continuance for ever and ever” to mean “suffer eternal torment”. This an example of reading a doctrine into a text rather than the other way around. Irenæus may well be inconsistent on this issue - so trying to harmonize his writings may not be possible.

 

[Luke6_37]

The soul cannot be “annihilated”. It is immortal. It cannot be destroyed. Again, basic Catholic dogma.

Are you saying that the Almighty God (dogma) who created the human soul from nothing (dogma) and sustains its existence (dogma) is incapable of destroying it?

This makes no sense.

Find me where it says so in this list:
http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2015/09/19/a-list-of-the-dogmas-of-the-catholic-church/

 

[KMG]

Luke, your views on this thread are simply not Catholic.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke, your views on this thread are simply not Catholic.

You don’t get to decide that.

 

[Luke6_37]

http://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm

Here’s what is says at the link @billy15 provided:

Strong’s Concordance

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol’-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).

HELPS Word-studies

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, “away from,” which intensifies ollymi, “to destroy”) – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi (“violently/completely perish”) implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); “to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction” (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

[This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.]

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly
NASB Translation
bring (1), destroy (17), destroyed (9), dying (1), end (1), killed (1), lose (10), loses (7), lost (14), passed away (1), perish (14), perishable (1), perished (4), perishes (1), perishing (6), put to death (1), ruined (3).

Thayer’s Greek Lexicon
(See original - it’s mostly Greek. I removed it due to character limitations)

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So like most Greek words, apollumi has a range of meanings. So we are back to looking at the point of the message Christ is trying to get across…

Matthew 10:28 NABRE - - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

It is pretty clear to me that he is intensifying the action from “kill” to something much worse “destroy”. He’s basically saying, don’t fear what humans can do to you, because what God can do is much worse.

By the logic of those who hold the Augustinian view, the eternally merciful and just God is going to create a beautiful immortal body for sinners at the Resurrection, just so he can torture them for all eternity in hell.

How is that either just or merciful?

 

[KMG]

Luke you ignore the clear teaching of the Catholic church and prefer your personal interpretation of selected scripture passages. That’s exactly what Protestants do.

 

[vz71]

You don’t get to decide that.

In the same way that people can look at a color and judge what color it is, or look at a cat and judge it to be a cat, people can look at the beliefs someone claims and judge them to be conducive to a specific religious belief.
In your case, the beliefs you defend are contrary to Catholicism.

 

[Agathon]

By the logic of those who hold the Augustinian view, the eternally merciful and just God is going to create a beautiful immortal body for sinners at the Resurrection, just so he can torture them for all eternity in hell.

As I’ve said, the torture in Hell is self inflicted.

 

[Mark121359]

Cardinal Burke: Scalfari Episode ‘Went Beyond What Is Tolerable’

The American cardinal says the recent ‘interview’ regarding hell was a ‘profound scandal,’ and that the Holy Father is not only failing to proclaim the Church’s constant doctrine and sound discipline but also ‘increasing the confusion’ over crucial issues.

www.ncregister.com

 

[pnewton]

I guess if one can blow off the pope in a separation from his office, blowing off a Cardinal is easier?

Perhaps the Holy Father did not take the action the Cardinal is wanting because he doesn’t has such a low opinion of the faithful of his Cardinals to see stupidity where it exists. I don’t know. The Pope did not discuss this with me. I doubt he conferred with Cardinal Burke.

However, one should not cause scandal in denouncing scandal.

 

[billy15]

So like most Greek words, apollumi has a range of meanings.

Obviously. but your charge earlier of “reading a doctrine into a text rather than the other way around” applies to you regarding annihilationism. What meaning do the Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church give this word? What does the Magisterium say? Nothing that points to or confirms annihilationism, it would seem. Including the quote you gave from St. Irenaeus since you can only interpret “deprives himself of continuance” into meaning the destruction of the soul.

It is pretty clear to me that he is intensifying the action from “kill” to something much worse “destroy”. He’s basically saying, don’t fear what humans can do to you, because what God can do is much worse.

No objection there. Hell is terrible. The “intensifying” does not signal annihilation of the souls of the damned.

By the logic of those who hold the Augustinian view, the eternally merciful and just God is going to create a beautiful immortal body for sinners at the Resurrection, just so he can torture them for all eternity in hell.

How is that either just or merciful?

And by the logic of those who hold annihilationist view, the eternally merciful and just God is going to create an immortal soul just to snuff it out. God lets us make our choices, even bad choices. It’s not him that tortures people for eternity in hell; as Agathon pointed out, we do that to ourselves. Destroying a soul would not be in conformity with the concept of an immortal soul, and since God creates, we have no good reason to believe that God would annihilate a soul.

Your main problem is not being able to comprehend how God can be just and merciful if people are in hell for eternity. Trent Horn makes another good point in his book in looking at Matt 25:46 (And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.), and it’s pretty simple, so I’ll just leave it at that:

In this context Jesus is making a comparison between the eternal life the righteous will enjoy forever and the eternal punishment the wicked will endure forever. The comparison doesn’t make sense if the wicked are destroyed and don’t have everlasting existence like the righteous will.

As we as Catholics know, we’ll get our bodies back at the end of the world. Our immortal souls and bodies will be reunited in eternity. Where in eternity that will be is up to us, though.

 

[billy15]

I don’t think Cardinal Burke can be said to be causing scandal at all. He didn’t say anything untrue in the article. Indeed, there are a lot of non-Catholic Christians who are very scandalized by this. Look around some of the popular Protestant sites to see what I mean, such as Relevant Magazine. Many non-Catholic Christians and even non-Christians look to the Church despite not holding all its beliefs. The statement given by the Vatican is definitely odd, and Cardinal Burke is right that bishops need to speak out more when confusion arises.

We can see the confusion arising on this very thread. Not only Protestants, but even Catholics think Pope Francis is spouting annihilationism. The episode definitely “went beyond what is tolerable”.

 

[KMG]

“This playing around with faith and doctrine, at the highest level of the Church, rightly leaves pastors and faithful scandalized,” Cardinal Burke added.

God bless Cardinal Burke. A voice of clarity in the midst of the increasing chaos emanating from the Vatican.