Does Satan have our world under a strong spell?

[Robert_Sock]

What about 236…I see the Good News lived in the Sisters and Brothers in the religious orders. I think that variance in degree is important in that they walk in the light of love not fear. Just saying.

II. THE FORMATION OF CONSCIENCE

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. [Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear] selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.

1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a6.htm

Might be impossible to calculate, still we can see the living truth in the Sisters and so forth. “He who is in us is greater then he who is in the world.”

“We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church”

Thank you!

Does the ‘Voice of God’ ever speak to us through the conscience? I certainly think so.

 

[VincentChristop]

“**the deceiver of the whole world” is obviously not literally true because it would mean every single person who has lived on this planet - including the saints **- has been deceived by Satan.

Please cite a statement in the Catechism to that effect.

even saints have been deceived by Satan.

No one live in completely oneness with God since BIRTH except for Jesus Christ/Mary.

Everyone is deceived by Satan in a point in their lives.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Thank you!

Does the ‘Voice of God’ ever speak to us through the conscience? I certainly think so.

In regards to private revelation?

 

[Robert_Sock]

In regards to private revelation?

Yes! And also causing us to grow being more moral. Also as the counter-arguments to Satan’s temptations.

LOVE!

 

[tonyrey]

even saints have been deceived by Satan.

No one live in completely oneness with God since BIRTH except for Jesus Christ/Mary.

Everyone is deceived by Satan in a point in their lives.

There is a vast difference between being deceived by Satan at some point in their lives and
being under a strong spell!

 

[tonyrey]

Thanks for your response!

I do not have any percentages in mind, and I believe they are next to impossible to calculate, but I do believe free will exists and that God tests us based on it.

I specified an approximate percentage. Doesn’t “strong” imply more than 50% - or even 75%? If God is testing us why does Satan have to come into the picture?

For example, illicit sex: for one person within a specific situation may be elicited completely on impulse (a ‘strong spell’) where culpability is nearly completely eliminated, but for another individual, there may be a genuine struggle between the id and superego where free will abounds.

There is no need to invoke Satan where actions are the result of a natural impulse. The struggle is between conscience and physical desire.

Moreover, a person who commits an evil act under a spell, may be given a genuine chance to repent at some future point, an act of free will.

That applies to every evil action regardless of Satanic influence…

I also contend that the ‘spell’ gives perceived life to a larger fantasy that we are all engaged in. Again, to view liberalism and conservatism as being in constant struggle against each other denotes a spell, whereas in reality they both give arise to a common fantasy where they both work in conjecture with each other, and are largely one and the same. I do believe that the majority of major politicians are aware of the fantasy, and behave as ‘actors’ in the same play.

There is no need to invoke Satan where actions are the result of self-deception. We can quite readily fool ourselves without having to be under a spell. We are often “guilty” of wishful thinking but it is not necessarily sinful. You seem to be finding diabolical activity in everyday events which have scientific or common sense explanations…

 

[Robert_Sock]

I specified an approximate percentage. Doesn’t “strong” imply more than 50% - or even 75%? If God is testing us why does Satan have to come into the picture?

The spell is based on degree. We are all always under the spell, but not always to the degree that we are totally inculpable. God tests us through Satan, often in a semi-spell, but where right and wrong is obvious. Even those ‘sinful’ behaviors that are committed 100% under Satan’s spell, we may later be given the chance to repent some time after we are made aware of the pseudo-infraction.

There is no need to invoke Satan where actions are the result of a natural impulse. The struggle is between conscience and physical desire.

It’s Satan who tempts often through natural impulses. What we often consider to be “natural impulses” are often influenced by Satan under the guise of things happening out of nature.

That applies to every evil action regardless of Satanic influence…

I was intentionally limiting it through Satan’s influence.

There is no need to invoke Satan where actions are the result of self-deception. We can quite readily fool ourselves without having to be under a spell. We are often “guilty” of wishful thinking but it is not necessarily sinful. You seem to be finding diabolical activity in everyday events which have scientific or common sense explanations…

The events I listed may not always need Satan’s spell, but this does not mean that many of the behaviors are. Our perceptions of a conflict between liberalism and conservatism is indeed very often the cause of a spell. Explanations of events that seem to have science or common-sense explanations are often erroneous.

LOVE!

 

[GaryTaylor]

You can’t always be under the spell, you could estimate a percentage through statistical probability. .

 

[Robert_Sock]

You can’t always be under the spell, you could estimate a percentage through statistical probability. .

I believe we are always under the ‘strong spell,’ but to varying degrees, much of time which lessen culpability and many other times where we are fully culpable. Very often when under a ‘strong spell’ that severely limit culpability, we are given free will at a later time where we are able repent of or condone the ‘sin.’

LOVE!

 

[tonyrey]

I specified an approximate percentage. Doesn’t “strong” imply more than 50% - or even 75%? If God is testing us why does Satan have to come into the picture?

What evidence is there that we are always under Satan’s spell - at every moment every day of our lives?

God tests us through Satan, often in a semi-spell, but where right and wrong is obvious. Even those ‘sinful’ behaviors that are committed 100% under Satan’s spell, we may later be given the chance to repent some time after we are made aware of the pseudo-infraction.

How often is sin committed under Satan’s spell? And how do you know when?

There is no need to invoke Satan where actions are the result of a natural impulse. The struggle is between conscience and physical desire.

It’s Satan who tempts often through natural impulses. What we often consider to be “natural impulses” are often influenced by Satan under the guise of things happening out of nature.

How often is “often”?

That applies to every evil action regardless of Satanic influence…

I was intentionally limiting it through Satan’s influence.

There seem to be no limits to Satan’s influence in your scheme of things!

There is no need to invoke Satan where actions are the result of self-deception. We can quite readily fool ourselves without having to be under a spell. We are often “guilty” of wishful thinking but it is not necessarily sinful. You seem to be finding diabolical activity in everyday events which have scientific or common sense explanations…

The events I listed may not always need Satan’s spell, but this does not mean that many of the behaviors are.

Precisely! His spell cannot be as strong as you make out.

Our perceptions of a conflict between liberalism and conservatism is indeed very often the cause of a spell. Explanations of events that seem to have science or common-sense explanations are often erroneous.

Errors are not evidence of Satanic influence.

 

[Robert_Sock]

What evidence is there that we are always under Satan’s spell - at every moment every day of our lives?

Experience! Personal revelation is the greatest form of evidence there is! Given the results of the poll, some form of this ‘experience’ seems to be common among many of us.

I never promised proof, but I still believe my quote from Revelations is strong evidence for the existence of a ‘strong spell.’ (Or a strong fantasy or a grand illusion, which I have never bothered to distinguish from each other. I like ‘strong spell’ because it more easily denotes Satan and the idea of our drifting in and out of it.)

How often is sin committed under Satan’s spell? And how do you know when?

Always, but at varying degrees of intensity (of the spell).

For most people, I assume we cannot know, but that matters little for temptations can still be a reality given God provides a valid situation for us to reflect morality by whether or not there is eventual remorse.

How often is “often”?

So sorry, but I honestly do not know.

There seem to be no limits to Satan’s influence in your scheme of things!

That’s largely correct, and I provided countless sources that warn against worldliness, but God still has the upper-hand over Satan.

Precisely! His spell cannot be as strong as you make out.

I still contend that we are always under Satan’s spell within the world, but not always at full capacity within specific situations. My choice of language was relaxed.

Errors are not evidence of Satanic influence.

OK.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Personal revelation could only be seen in relation to the public revelation of Christ, which the Church says one would be foolish to take their eye off of Christ. Which also doesn’t solve how we could be under a spell always. Granted the paradox is sinners who must strive not to sin.

No new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.

Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. …CCC.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Personal revelation could only be seen in relation to the public revelation of Christ, which the Church says one would be foolish to take their eye off of Christ. Which also doesn’t solve how we could be under a spell always. Granted the paradox is sinners who must strive not to sin.

No new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.

Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. …CCC.

I think discussing private revelations is prohibited on at least one forum, but I’m not sure if it applies to this forum also.

I never desired anything.

 

[davidv]

{snip}I still contend that we are always under Satan’s spell within the world, but not always at full capacity within specific situations. My choice of language was relaxed.

OK.

I belive your choice of language is highly misleading. Calling it a spell strongly implies lack of control. The Church teaching is clear that despite Satans presence and power, we do not loose our feel will.

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”.298 Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action299 and morals.

Highlighing mine.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I belive your choice of language is highly misleading. Calling it a spell strongly implies lack of control. The Church teaching is clear that despite Satans presence and power, we do not loose our feel will.
Highlighing mine.

Yes, I intended it to mean loss of control to the degree we are under a spell. But, as I stated elsewhere, we often do not lose complete control over our free will. Also, I stated that even though we engage in ‘sinful’ behavior under a complete spell, God can allow us entire free will later in time when accessing the misbehavior; this will determine whether or not we repent.

I’m not sure what the CCC means by ‘free.’ If it means absolute free will, then I’m very confused in that we often engage in misbehavior based on impulse. Such impulsive misbehavior is hardly sinful in the eyes of God due to its impulsive, uncontrollable nature. Examples of such impulsiveness are included in classical and operant conditioning, and could easily be a part of the spiritual world.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I think discussing private revelations is prohibited on at least one forum, but I’m not sure if it applies to this forum also.

I never desired anything.

Rather beside the point…

Personal revelation could only be seen in relation to the public revelation of Christ, which the Church says one would be foolish to take their eye off of Christ. Which also doesn’t solve how we could be under a spell always. Granted the paradox is sinners who must strive not to sin.

No strong spell always. Not in the CCC either. Jesus didn’t say that. And we don’t know how strong the strong spell is that doesn’t always occur, or the percentage it is strong, is it strong all at once, or does it vary from weak to strong. Or does that vary also.

How do you know your not the only one under the strong spell not in the CCC? Did you take a survey? Was always in the question, and what were the results? You might be alone in this understanding?

 

[davidv]

Yes, I intended it to mean loss of control to the degree we are under a spell. But, as I stated elsewhere, we often do not lose complete control over our free will. Also, I stated that even though we engage in ‘sinful’ behavior under a complete spell, God can allow us entire free will later in time when accessing the misbehavior; this will determine whether or not we repent.

I don’t believe you have any Church teaching or Scripture to support this claim.

I’m not sure what the CCC means by ‘free.’ If it means absolute free will, then I’m very confused in that we often engage in misbehavior based on impulse. Such impulsive misbehavior is hardly sinful in the eyes of God due to its impulsive, uncontrollable nature. Examples of such impulsiveness are included in classical and operant conditioning, and could easily be a part of the spiritual world.

If you don’t understand what the Church means, then it is highly irregular to argue against her teachings that depend on that meaning.
Impulsive behavior happens when ones will does not engage the intellect when choosing to react to a set of conditions. This is freely done by the will.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I don’t believe you have any Church teaching or Scripture to support this claim.

Yes, and it has already been presented.

Revelation 12:9 RSV
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world–he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

(Please supply the reader with your interpretations of the above quote.)

If you don’t understand what the Church means, then it is highly irregular to argue against her teachings that depend on that meaning.
Impulsive behavior happens when ones will does not engage the intellect when choosing to react to a set of conditions. This is freely done by the will.

How on earth can something be done completely outside the intellect (which includes the conscious parts of the superego, ego and id, as defined by Freud) and still be done out of free will? (Please explain.)
intellect /intˈi-lekt/
noun
The mind, in reference to its rational powers
The thinking principle

LOVE!

 

[Robert_Sock]

Personal revelation could only be seen in relation to the public revelation of Christ, which the Church says one would be foolish to take their eye off of Christ. Which also doesn’t solve how we could be under a spell always. Granted the paradox is sinners who must strive not to sin.

On 6 December, 1273, he laid aside his pen and would write no more. That day he experienced an unusually long ecstasy during Mass; what was revealed to him we can only surmise from his reply to Father Reginald, who urged him to continue his writings: “I can do no more. Such secrets have been revealed to me that all I have written now appears to be of little value.”
-Saint Thomas Aquinas

Did Saint Aquinas’ experiences come from personal revelation or were they somehow a public revelation of Christ? How were Saint Aquinas’ revelations any different from mine?

No strong spell always. Not in the CCC either. Jesus didn’t say that. And we don’t know how strong the strong spell is that doesn’t always occur, or the percentage it is strong, is it strong all at once, or does it vary from weak to strong. Or does that vary also.

Again and again I’ve said that I have no quotes that uses the term ‘spell.’ As for the rest of your post, I believe I have already answered most of it.

How do you know your not the only one under the strong spell not in the CCC? Did you take a survey? Was always in the question, and what were the results? You might be alone in this understanding?

You completely lose me with your first sentence… poorly worded, I’m afraid. If you explain, I will respond.

LOVE!

 

[Robert_Sock]

How on earth can something be done completely outside the intellect (which includes the conscious parts of the superego, ego and id, as defined by Freud)

The id should not have been included here.