Does Satan have our world under a strong spell?

[Robert_Sock]

If Satan serves G-d, how does Satan also oppose G-d? Are you saying that G-d uses evil in the person of Satan to cast the world under the latter’s spell, which in turn eventually leads to its redemption? This is contrary to both Catholic and Jewish belief although in different ways. Whatever your philosophy is, Robert, it is not orthodox (which is fine with me), just so you realize.

When I assert that Satan serves God and also opposes Him, I’m looking at them in different senses. Satan serves God in that he is doing the evil part of what needs to be done for the salvation of the human race; they oppose each other in the sense that good and evil are opposite of each other.

One very popular translations:

Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.” (Douay-Rheims)

How do you interpret that?

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8: 1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: 2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted; 3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; 6 a time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; 7 a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8 a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.

I may be off base, but it sometimes seems that the author is implicitly condoning evil in our world. It also seems that these dichotomies imply that good and evil are working together to bring our world to salvation.
Revelation 12:9 RSV
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world–he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Being called the deceiver of the world does not mean a spell, but it’s congruent with it.

The ideal of a spell may not be Orthodox, but reflect my beliefs.

LOVE!

 

[Cicero_NOLA]

I should have stated that Satan serves God in all the places where I said Satan collaborates with God. I should also say that I believe Satan and God oppose each other, but only in the sense that God is good and Satan is *evil. *

LOVE!

I think this is starting to get more in line with Catholic thought. Satan exists because God created him and has permitted his continued existence. I think it can be said that Satan serves God only insofar as we believe everything ultimately fulfills God’s plan and that is stretching the meaning of the English word “serve.” A question that sometimes comes up on these forums is whether Judas is actually a great saint for knowingly taking actions which led to the torture and execution of God in order that His plan for salvation be fulfilled.. I think the consensus is “no” because of the unanimous testimony of the church fathers and Jesus’ own remark on this point: “it would be better for that man never to have been born.” I wonder what you think about that question.

What your describing is more a world of equals having board meetings and coming to a consensus about what they should do next. To you, Satan is the cosmic Severus Snape: reviled by all the good guys until the very end when we find out what a personal sacrifice he has made by pretending to be evil.

And I will also mention that I have tremendous respect for Jewish people and their contributions to salvation history. But, as a Catholic, it is incumbent upon you to embrace the fullness of revelation in Jesus Christ and His Church. There is a lot of good theology in the Jewish tradition, but now that we have experienced Christ’s perfect Revelation we need to be thinking and praying with that in mind.

Peace.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I think this is starting to get more in line with Catholic thought. Satan exists because God created him and has permitted his continued existence. I think it can be said that Satan serves God only insofar as we believe everything ultimately fulfills God’s plan and that is stretching the meaning of the English word “serve.” A question that sometimes comes up on these forums is whether Judas is actually a great saint for knowingly taking actions which led to the torture and execution of God in order that His plan for salvation be fulfilled.. I think the consensus is “no” because of the unanimous testimony of the church fathers and Jesus’ own remark on this point: “it would be better for that man never to have been born.” I wonder what you think about that question.

I trust what is written in the Bible, and that suggests that Judas has been condemned. But it may interest to the reader to distinguish between actions done under free will and those behaviors committed totally out of impulse. Examples of behaviors committed based entirely on impulse include The toddler whose response is based on an inner impulse of past rewards and punishment. Both operant and classical conditioning, especially that based on the unconscious, may lead to impulsive behavior that does not involve much cognition.

 

[tonyrey]

1. Do you really believe God collaborates with Satan?

“collaborate” means to work together to achieve shared goals or to cooperate traitorously with an enemy. What are the shared goals of God and Satan and who does God betray?

2. Why do you believe God collaborates with Satan?

Because our world contains good and evil. If Satan worked against God, how absurd that an all powerful God would allow that. And to think that we live in a world of good versus evil, we are in severe error with the Church’s teachings; a world of good versus evil implies two gods in opposition to each other, but we believe in one Divine God! The only alternative explanation would be to view the world with Satan serving the purpose of God!

Satan does not serve the purpose of God because He created everyone to love Him, serve Him and be happy with Him in heaven. Satan goes against the Will of God by rejecting Him and tempting others to do likewise.

3. Do you collaborate with Satan?

Unwittingly, yes sometimes, as do we all. (Perhaps even in my writing this!)

“collaborate unwittingly” is an oxymoron.

4. How do you collaborate with Satan?

Do you believe that a person can sell their soul to Satan, and thus work for him? I believe we all unwittingly sell our souls to Satan at one point or another during our life.

Evil doesn’t exist because Satan co-operates with God but because he defies and disobeys Him.

(PS, who do you believe runs and guides our extremely complex world? How did it achieve the technology and population growth that we have seen over the past 150 years?)

Your implication that technology is necessarily evil is obviously false because science has benefited humanity in many ways. As for population growth:

God blessed them and said to them “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it”.

Genesis 1:28

 

[Charlemagne_III]

From a certain view you might say that Satan is God’s useful idiot.

God wanted to write a comedy in which good triumphs over evil.

Satan wanted to write a drama in which evil triumphs over good.

So what we finally get is a tragic comedy in which good triumphs over evil, if you will let it!.

 

[Robert_Sock]

“collaborate” means to work together to achieve shared goals or to cooperate traitorously with an enemy. What are the shared goals of God and Satan and who does God betray?

See post 59 where I corrected myself by saying that Satan serves God, and not collaborates with him.

Satan does not serve the purpose of God because He created everyone to love Him, serve Him and be happy with Him in heaven. Satan goes against the Will of God by rejecting Him and tempting others to do likewise.

Again, we live in a world of good and evil, not a world of good versus evil! It sounds like you’re fallen into a sinful trap of heresy by suggesting that we live in a world of good verses evil!

“collaborate unwittingly” is an oxymoron.
Evil doesn’t exist because Satan co-operates with God but because he defies and disobeys Him.

Again, see post 59 where I retract the phrase “collaborates with God” and replace it with “serves God.”

Your implication that technology is necessarily evil is obviously false because science has benefited humanity in many ways. As for population growth:

I never meant to suggest that technology is necessarily evil. I contend that God and Satan and Satan control and guide the world. Just because technology serves people is in no way sufficient for it being good! Why would an all powerful God allow Satan to oppose Him? Again, you’re falling into heresy by suggesting that we live in a world of good versus evil.

Sorry I did not chose my wording as good as I should have. You’re criticizing me on a careless technicality, and fail to comprehend the picture I’m trying to paint! You are also avoiding my questions. Again, who do you believe runs and guides our extremely complex world? How did it achieve the technology and population growth that we have seen over the past 150 years?

LOVE!

 

[Ion]

From a certain view you might say that Satan is God’s useful idiot.

 

[Robert_Sock]

From a certain view you might say that Satan is God’s useful idiot.

God wanted to write a comedy in which good triumphs over evil.

Satan wanted to write a drama in which evil triumphs over good.

So what we finally get is a tragic comedy in which good triumphs over evil, if you will let it!.

Your thoughts suggests we live in a world of good versus evil, which is heresy since it implies two gods! No, we live in a world of good and evil.

 

[Aloysium]

From a certain view you might say that Satan is God’s useful idiot.

There’s lots of competition for the position, but from a seniority perspective, he gets the job.

I’ve imagined well-known atheist writers to play the role of court jesters in the afterlife:
“Richard, why don’t you read us something you wrote?”
“The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.”
Followed by a huge guffaw and general laughter.
Richard blushes and makes a rude noise.

One has to laugh, or it is otherwise so seriously depressing; as claimed by the OP, it appears our world is under a strong spell.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“The whole Church and each one of her children are beset by dangers, the fire of persecution, the enervation of ease, the dangers of wealth and of poverty, heresies and errors of opposite characters, rationalism and superstition, fanaticism and indifference. It would be bad enough if all these forces were acting apart and without any definite purpose, but the perils of the situation are incalculably increased when all may be organized and directed by vigilant and hostile intelligences.” New Advent- Devil

All hell is conspiring. The ignorant refuse to help. AND just think how Blessed you are. Christ chose YOU to be here…he must really LOVE YOU!

 

[Robert_Sock]

“The whole Church and each one of her children are beset by dangers, the fire of persecution, the enervation of ease, the dangers of wealth and of poverty, heresies and errors of opposite characters, rationalism and superstition, fanaticism and indifference. It would be bad enough if all these forces were acting apart and without any definite purpose, but the perils of the situation are incalculably increased when all may be organized and directed by vigilant and hostile intelligences.” New Advent- Devil

All hell is conspiring. The ignorant refuse to help. AND just think how Blessed you are. Christ chose YOU to be here…he must really LOVE YOU!

Thank you for that quote, Gary!!!

 

[tonyrey]

             "collaborate" means to work together  to achieve shared goals or to cooperate traitorously with an enemy. What  are the shared goals of God and Satan and who does God betray?

You are still misrepresenting the facts. Satan does not intend to serve God.

Satan does not serve the purpose of God because He created everyone to love Him, serve Him and be happy with Him in heaven. Satan goes against the Will of God by rejecting Him and tempting others to do likewise.

Again, we live in a world of good and evil, not a world of good versus evil! It sounds like you’re fallen into a sinful trap of heresy by suggesting that we live in a world of good verses evil!

Now you are misrepresenting me and contradicting Pope Paul VI:

As a result, all of human life, whether individual or collective, shows itself to be a dramatic struggle between good and evil, between light and darkness.

-* Gaudium et Spes*

Evil doesn’t exist because Satan co-operates with God but because he defies and disobeys Him.

Again, see post 59 where I retract the phrase “collaborates with God” and replace it with “serves God.”

Satan does not intend to serve God.

Your implication that technology is necessarily evil is obviously false because science has benefited humanity in many ways. As for population growth:

I never meant to suggest that technology is necessarily evil. I contend that God and Satan and Satan control and guide the world.

It is more accurate to say that God controls and guides the world while Satan interferes within strictly defined limits whereas you imply that the forces of good and evil are equally balanced - or, even worse than that, Satan’s spell is more powerful than God’s grace.

Just because technology serves people is in no way sufficient for it being good! Why would an all powerful God allow Satan to oppose Him? Again, you’re falling into heresy by suggesting that we live in a world of good versus evil.

And you are again misrepresenting me. We live in a world where there is “a dramatic struggle between good and evil, between light and darkness.”

Sorry I did not chose my wording as good as I should have. You’re criticizing me on a careless technicality, and fail to comprehend the picture I’m trying to paint! You are also avoiding my questions. Again, who do you believe runs and guides our extremely complex world? How did it achieve the technology and population growth that we have seen over the past 150 years?

Certainly not Satan! Men and women with their God-given powers of reason and procreation:

God blessed them and said to them “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it”.

Life on earth is not a curse but a blessing, an intrinsic part of our spiritual development and not a burdensome prelude to heaven as you are always suggesting - with the corollary that the sooner we die the better…

 

[Geist]

If that were the case Satan would be more powerful than God and most people would be evil.

I did not say nor imply that. I merely said his influence is all around us.

That one has no power except lies and empty promises; it is utterly devoid of actual power.

However, those lies and empty promises can and have influenced much sadly.

 

[Geist]

Goodness is also all around us. We are then under its spell?

I never used the word “spell”.

Of course goodness exists in us, we are made in His image; even the Fall (caused by the guest of honor for this thread incidentally) couldn’t erase that.

The point is Satan can and does influence this world through his lies; I do not know how to make this concept any simpler.

Are some getting “influence” confused with “control”?

 

[tonyrey]

I did not say nor imply that. I merely said his influence is all around us.

That one has no power except lies and empty promises; it is utterly devoid of actual power.

However, those lies and empty promises can and have influenced much sadly.

I may be mistaken but “all around us” gives the impression that life is dominated by Satan’s influence. It does seem to tally with the view that our world under a strong spell!

 

[Robert_Sock]

You are still misrepresenting the facts. Satan does not intend to serve God.

We may need to agree to disagree on this.There is probably no way of testing our differences in in opinion.

Now you are misrepresenting me and contradicting Pope Paul VI:

-* Gaudium et Spes*
Satan does not intend to serve God.

Be assured that I never intended to misrepresent, and you have my apologies.

It is more accurate to say that God controls and guides the world while Satan interferes within strictly defined limits whereas you imply that the forces of good and evil are equally balanced - or, even worse than that, Satan’s spell is more powerful than God’s grace.

Now play fair, I NEVER said that Satan’s spell is stronger than God’s grace, and again, I do not consider good and evil to be at odds with each other; both are at constant work within our world.

And you are again misrepresenting me. We live in a world where there is “a dramatic struggle between good and evil, between light and darkness.”
Certainly not Satan! Men and women with their God-given powers of reason and procreation:

Again, my apologies!

My contention is that good and evil do indeed oppose each other, but only from the perspective of each being at work within the individual (think of good and evil being the part of a special score card that is kept on each of us). The view from Heaven looking down upon us, good and evil work together to bring our fallen world to salvation.

Life on earth is not a curse but a blessing, an intrinsic part of our spiritual development and not a burdensome prelude to heaven as you are always suggesting - with the corollary that the sooner we die the better…

Yes, life on earth is a blessing. And, our life certainly can result in a purification of the soul, or perhaps even necessary spiritual development. The corollary on death does not fit. I contend that our lives are to be highly valued and that we carry life’s burdens till the end. But yes, I wanna go home!!!

 

[tonyrey]

We may need to agree to disagree on this.There is probably no way of testing our differences in in opinion.

Be assured that I never intended to misrepresent, and you have my apologies.

Now play fair, I NEVER said that Satan’s spell is stronger than God’s grace, and again, I do not consider good and evil to be at odds with each other; both are at constant work within our world.

Again, my apologies!

My contention is that good and evil do indeed oppose each other, but only from the perspective of each being at work within the individual (think of good and evil being the part of a special score card that is kept on each of us). The view from Heaven looking down upon us, good and evil work together to bring our fallen world to salvation.

Yes, life on earth is a blessing. And, our life certainly can result in a purification of the soul, or perhaps even necessary spiritual development. The corollary on death does not fit. I contend that our lives are to be highly valued and that we carry life’s burdens till the end. But yes, I wanna go home!!!

Thank you for clarifying your views, Robert. It is far more positive than I thought… and you are fully entitled to long for heaven.

 

[Geist]

I may be mistaken but “all around us” gives the impression that life is dominated by Satan’s influence. It does seem to tally with the view that our world under a strong spell!

It is all around us; we are all tainted with original sin no?

It does not dominate us however.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It is all around us; we are all tainted with original sin no?

It does not dominate us however.

Its still perspective though with a “strong spell”. I get the impression it implies some sort of control over free-will.

 

[GaryTaylor]

For example here…

spell (spɛl)
n

1. (Alternative Belief Systems) a verbal formula considered as having magical force
2. any influence that can control the mind or character; fascination
3. a state induced by or as if by the pronouncing of a spell; trance: to break the spell.
4. under a spell held in or as if in a spell

vb
5. (tr) to place under a spell
[free dictionary on-line]

This is a different understanding than temptation where mans free will is always in play be it he doesn’t act in accord with the moral law because of his own reasoning.