Drinking alcohol and smoking pot – what are your thoughts?

[CopticChristian]

From a practical standpoint, I find a typical joint to be about as intoxicating as a single shot of liquor. Liquor has been shown to have much more severe impacts on the mind and body than marijuana (citations on request), is known to be more dependency-forming than pot (again, citations on request), and is generally an all-around worse drug for you.

Liquor is age-regulated (21y+) and is taxed to the government’s profit. There are people who have trouble with alcoholism, and institutions exist to help them overcome it.

Marijuana is federally banned and importation, growing, and selling it are prosecutable offenses. The government spends billions finding, prosecuting, and jailing marijuana dealers and users, despite populace-supported state laws in many states that partially or entirely decriminalize it.

Theology aside, that seems nonsensical from a practical standpoint. The worse drug is given immensely more leniency than the safer one.

Doxus,

These are good arguments. Tobacco is the most addictive substance on the planet. Alcohol in large amounts can cause brain damage, liver damage, peripheral neuropathy and if caught driving and drinking you can be incarcerated and have your driving priveleges taken away. Many people have gone to jail because they cannot stop drinking and driving. Mark Grace, baseball player, is facing 4 years in prison because he has had two DUI convictions. While in jail he will contemplate the wrong he has done. While in jail if convicted of a Federal Felony of using, buying, selling marijuana you can contemplate the progress that the States are making to try to reverse the imposition of Federal laws that ban marijuana and consider it a felony to buy, sell and maintain in possession.

 

[Doxus]

Hi Doxus. Yes, please, I am requesting your citations.
The argument that marijuana is worse drug for you than alcohol is interesting. It would be interesting to see the longitudinal studies which support that assertion. I would be especially interested in studies of its effects upon the lungs and reproduction systems.
However the argument that one thing that is bad for your body is less bad than another is not much of an argument for supporting the availability of either of those things .
It would be helpful to see arguments which move beyond this line of thinking.
May God bless you and all who visit CAF. Amen.

A good at-a-glance citation is this chart that was published in the Lancet in 2007:


However, don’t worry, I don’t consider it a primary source, since it is merely the result of a survey of healthcare professionals and addiction specialists. It’s a good source for what the medical community considers most dangerous/addictive, but it is not a scientifically determined result.

For the science,

The adverse health effects of excessive alcohol consumption are well-known. Cancer, liver cirrhosis, cardiac disease, diabetes, and potential mental affects.
cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

Marijuana adverse health effects generally appear to fall into three categories:

1. Adverse effects on child development, which is why I strongly recommend an age requirement of 21, just like with alcohol
2. Adverse effects due to inhaling burning plant matter, which causes bronchitis and cancers. This can be avoided by using it in the form of a vaporizer, tea, or baked goods
3. Adverse effects of THC itself, which are almost non-existent. Main affect could be described as a loss of gumption and motivation, if used to excess

blog.uvm.edu/jrhughes/files/2011/11/10.1.1.175.3772.pdf

The illegality of marijuana makes researching it difficult, but all research done so far shows much milder impacts on health than those caused by alcohol, especially in adults using non-smoke based methods of administration. And as stated billions of times by others, you cannot overdose on marijuana. It just can’t be done.

In the end, either used in moderation is perfectly safe, while either used to excess has health dangers. Children should not use either one, nor should you operate a vehicle while using either.

All I’m asking for is consistency, and for my tax dollars to go to something more important than jailing people for trade in a (near-)harmless plant.

And I didn’t even mention tobacco…

 

[CopticChristian]

A good at-a-glance citation is this chart that was published in the Lancet in 2007:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg/380px-Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg.png

However, don’t worry, I don’t consider it a primary source, since it is merely the result of a survey of healthcare professionals and addiction specialists. It’s a good source for what the medical community considers most dangerous/addictive, but it is not a scientifically determined result.

For the science,

The adverse health effects of excessive alcohol consumption are well-known. Cancer, liver cirrhosis, cardiac disease, diabetes, and potential mental affects.
cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

Marijuana adverse health effects generally appear to fall into three categories:

1. Adverse effects on child development, which is why I strongly recommend an age requirement of 21, just like with alcohol
2. Adverse effects due to inhaling burning plant matter, which causes bronchitis and cancers. This can be avoided by using it in the form of a vaporizer, tea, or baked goods
3. Adverse effects of THC itself, which are almost non-existent. Main affect could be described as a loss of gumption and motivation, if used to excess

blog.uvm.edu/jrhughes/files/2011/11/10.1.1.175.3772.pdf

The illegality of marijuana makes researching it difficult, but all research done so far shows much milder impacts on health than those caused by alcohol, especially in adults using non-smoke based methods of administration. And as stated billions of times by others, you cannot overdose on marijuana. It just can’t be done.

In the end, either used in moderation is perfectly safe, while either used to excess has health dangers. Children should not use either one, nor should you operate a vehicle while using either.

All I’m asking for is consistency, and for my tax dollars to go to something more important than jailing people for trade in a (near-)harmless plant.

And I didn’t even mention tobacco…

Do,

I am not sure what your point is.

You show a chart of opinion. I want to see where you got this from. Addictionologists are usually 12 step/AA religion advocates and I don’t know what healthcare professionals were surveyed. I find no use in opinion in making a point.

Heroin has no real purpose. It is a narcotic pain reliever and there are many of those. Tobacco is the most addictive substance on the planet and causes Cancer. I have no recollection of Heroin causing Cancer. Anabolic Steroids are death and useless. These opinions lead nowhere.

Adverse effects of alcohol are dose dependent and to see some of these you need to imbibe for a long time. It is a slow death.

Your recommendations for marijuana “I recommend”…is based on what. Your recommendations as a what?

The Article provided for Marijuana is a study of adolescents that use cannabis into adulthood.

Your conclusions make sense as your opinion without substance.

 

[Doxus]

Do,

I am not sure what your point is.

You show a chart of opinion. I want to see where you got this from. Addictionologists are usually 12 step/AA religion advocates and I don’t know what healthcare professionals were surveyed. I find no use in opinion in making a point.

Heroin has no real purpose. It is a narcotic pain reliever and there are many of those. Tobacco is the most addictive substance on the planet and causes Cancer. I have no recollection of Heroin causing Cancer. Anabolic Steroids are death and useless. These opinions lead nowhere.

Adverse effects of alcohol are dose dependent and to see some of these you need to imbibe for a long time. It is a slow death.

Your recommendations for marijuana “I recommend”…is based on what. Your recommendations as a what?

The Article provided for Marijuana is a study of adolescents that use cannabis into adulthood.

Your conclusions make sense as your opinion without substance.

I’m not sure how anything you’ve said in any way combats anything I said. I state in my post that I do not consider the chart a primary source, just a quick reference of medical opinion on the subject, the image itself being off Wikipedia.

Citation:

A rational scale to assess the harm of drugs. Data source is the March 24, 2007 article: Nutt, David, Leslie A King, William Saulsbury, Colin Blakemore. “Development of a rational scale to assess the harm of drugs of potential misuse” The Lancet 2007; 369:1047-1053. (PMID 17382831; doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(07)60464-4) The data in the paper is obtained solely from questionnaire results obtained from two groups of people: the first comprised people from the UK national group of consultant psychiatrists who were on the Royal College of Psychiatrists’ register as specialists in addiction, while the second comprised of people with experience in one of the many areas of addiction, ranging from chemistry, pharmacology, and forensic science, through psychiatry and other medical specialties, including epidemiology, as well as the legal and police services; the experts are not named and were chosen by the authors. This is a tertiary source

I’d like to see a citation on your thus-far unsupported assertion that tobacco is the most addictive substance on earth. It doesn’t really have anything to do with the comparison between marijuana and alcohol, but you seem to believe it pretty hard, when everything I’ve heard indicate that both crack cocaine and heroin and a few other drugs are likely more addictive. Not saying tobacco ISN’T addictive, but your claim that it is THE MOST addictive SUBSTANCE, let alone recreational drug, requires some substantiation.

And the rest of your points… I’m sorry, you’re not even making sense.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m not sure how anything you’ve said in any way combats anything I said. I state in my post that I do not consider the chart a primary source, just a quick reference of medical opinion on the subject, the image itself being off Wikipedia.

Citation:

I’d like to see a citation on your thus-far unsupported assertion that tobacco is the most addictive substance on earth. It doesn’t really have anything to do with the comparison between marijuana and alcohol, but you seem to believe it pretty hard, when everything I’ve heard indicate that both crack cocaine and heroin and a few other drugs are likely more addictive. Not saying tobacco ISN’T addictive, but your claim that it is THE MOST addictive SUBSTANCE, let alone recreational drug, requires some substantiation.

And the rest of your points… I’m sorry, you’re not even making sense.

Do.

Wikipedia for making a point about something you recommend? Please spare me.:bigyikes:

nytimes.com/1987/03/29/magazine/nicotine-harder-to-kickthan-heroin.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

‘‘Heroin addicts say it is easier to give up dope than it is to give up smoking,’’ says Dr. Sharon Hall, a psychology professor whose research at the University of California’s San Francisco medical school centers on methods of curtailing drug abuse.

newrecovery.blogspot.com/2006/09/nicotine-most-addictive-substance.html

“Nicotine is the most addictive substance known on this planet,” Dr. Reichert said. “It is more addictive than heroin or cocaine, it’s more addictive than caffeine, it’s more addictive than anything.” Reichert is lead author of a new study that finds smokers succeed more often at quitting if they combine behavioral changes with group support and pharmacological aids, than if they try to quit by will power alone.

michaelshouse.com/drug-addiction/most-addictive-drugs-world/

#1 Nicotine. Although studies vary, it is generally believed that over 30% of those individuals who use nicotine for a period of time become addicted. That is a high number considering the availability of the product, the manner in which it is marketed towards young people, and the deadly consequences of a lifetime of use.

news-medical.net/news/2004/05/21/1760.aspx

Nicotine remains one of the most addictive drugs ever used

Would you consider this Some Substantiation?

I don’t know what you have heard. I know what I have seen studied and know. My opinion is based on knowledge, trainging and experience not on what I heard.

Stanton Peele, Phd in his book The Truth About Addiction points out that you don’t hear about the people that quit cocaine and heroin…they just quit. The reality is that if you ever find yourself visiting an AA meeting, a detox center, a rehab center and see the people that are being brainwashed into the AA/12 step religion…that is called treatment…there is no effort to stop the smokers from smoking…WHY? Because it is so hard to get someone to stop and if it was a requirement for these programs that you must stop smoking to enter…they would lose money.

You are making recommendations for use of a plant that is considered illegal by Federal Standards, may have some medical use and your credentials for recommending this are what?

 

[Doxus]

I’m getting the impression you only read about every other word of my posts. You’ve completely misunderstood everything I’ve said. I’m sorry, I’m done with you until someone who can read comes along.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m getting the impression you only read about every other word of my posts. You’ve completely misunderstood everything I’ve said. I’m sorry, I’m done with you until someone who can read comes along.

Do,

I find this insulting and have reported you as uncharitable.

 

[Doxus]

I could likewise report you as inconsiderate, not taking the time to actually read the arguments presented. From your responses it is clear that you either did not fully read my posts, or intentionally ignored things I said. I will not waste patience with one who shows none himself.

 

[CopticChristian]

I could likewise report you as inconsiderate, not taking the time to actually read the arguments presented. From your responses it is clear that you either did not fully read my posts, or intentionally ignored things I said. I will not waste patience with one who shows none himself.

Do,

This is CAF. You are posting about what your thoughts are on alcohol and smoking pot. You made a recommendation.

You used Wikipedia opinion…

Mention the adverse effects of alcohol

State that Marijuana adverse health effects generally appear to fall into three categories:

reference an article from Lancet, a medical journal, about adolescent marijuana use

and then make what appears to be a recommendation…

In the end, either used in moderation is perfectly safe, while either used to excess has health dangers. Children should not use either one, nor should you operate a vehicle while using either.

You are posting where, if you have not noticed, there are 5589 views. You are saying that it is perfectly safe and make recommendations. You asked for citations about Nicotine being the most addictive substance on the planet that I provided, to show that the opinions make no sense.

I asked you on what basis you are making this recommendation? I have a moral obligation as a physician and a Moral obligation on this forum to ask you what basis you make this conclusion…

Becuase I use pot and want others to use it
Because I want to use pot and I see no harm in it
Because I have a Phd and have researched it
Because I am a Nurse, Pharmacist, Physician, Psychologist, ?

What is your opinion based on so that those that lurk can know who is suggesting that it is safe?

 

[Mickey]

I’m done with you until someone who can read comes along.

Very uncharitable.

 

[Kc906]

I try to look at this argument through both the eyes of a Christian, and also as a citizen of a free country. After all, the Church does not run the US nor legislate the laws on its books, but she does defend her right to voice the right to life, and the right to preserve all lives above anything else.

As a Christian, we know clearly that God revealed to us through his Word that consuming Alcohol is okay, but getting drunk is not. Who here realistically believes that there are not millions of Christians in this country who have gotten drunk during the year of 2012? As a Church, there is not a movement out there pushing for the criminalization of Alcohol because millions of people (including those believing in God) are getting drunk when clearly we are called not to in the Bible. The Church condones the substance, but disapproves of it’s abuse (getting drunk.)

The use of Marijuana is not explicitly talked about in scripture, so the only thing we have to go off of from a Christian point of view is “not to get drunk.” Now even though using Marijuana doesn’t get you drunk, I find it reasonable to draw the same conclusion that we should not be using a substance if the sole intention is to alter our mind and body, namely to “get high.” Therefore, I think it would be wrong to be for an all out legalization of Marijuana.

As a Christian who used to use Marijuana heavily in college, I don’t know why any Christian would not want their own family member to have access to Marijuana in the event that they need it to get through an illness like Cancer, Leukemia, etc…Unlike Alcohol, Marijuana is proven to help many patients get through these treatments they may be undergoing by preventing nausea, increasing appetite, among other things.

So i’m sure someone will say, “well don’t you know that if you allow Marijuana use for medicinal purposes then people will abuse the system and still find ways to legally use it for recreational purposes?” My answer will be of course this will happen, it’s already happening in places like California and it is well documented. But I personally would not want any of my family members to be rejected the possibility to use a possible life saving drug (Marijuana) just because “some people” abuse the system and the law.

In Summary, I think as a Church we should be Pro Medicinal Marijuana. It is a proven life saver for medical purposes. There are other ways to receive the medicine aside from smoking such as eating, drinking, and Vaporizers. Just like Alcohol, we should tolerate the substance but be against it’s abuse (recreational use.)

 

[april32010]

boston.com/business/news/2012/12/07/legal-pot-complicates-drug-free-work-policies/WNhNLgqEUk6tzYiwJ2TRhP/story.html

Pot may be legal, but workers may want to check with their boss first before they grab the pipe or joint during off hours.

Businesses in Washington state, where the drug is legal, and Colorado, where it will be by January, are trying to figure out how to deal with employees who use it on their own time and then fail a drug test.

It is another uncertainty that has come with pot legalization as many ask how the laws will affect them.

 

[CopticChristian]

I try to look at this argument through both the eyes of a Christian, and also as a citizen of a free country. After all, the Church does not run the US nor legislate the laws on its books, but she does defend her right to voice the right to life, and the right to preserve all lives above anything else.

As a Christian, we know clearly that God revealed to us through his Word that consuming Alcohol is okay, but getting drunk is not. Who here realistically believes that there are not millions of Christians in this country who have gotten drunk during the year of 2012? As a Church, there is not a movement out there pushing for the criminalization of Alcohol because millions of people (including those believing in God) are getting drunk when clearly we are called not to in the Bible. The Church condones the substance, but disapproves of it’s abuse (getting drunk.)

The use of Marijuana is not explicitly talked about in scripture, so the only thing we have to go off of from a Christian point of view is “not to get drunk.” Now even though using Marijuana doesn’t get you drunk, I find it reasonable to draw the same conclusion that we should not be using a substance if the sole intention is to alter our mind and body, namely to “get high.” Therefore, I think it would be wrong to be for an all out legalization of Marijuana.

As a Christian who used to use Marijuana heavily in college, I don’t know why any Christian would not want their own family member to have access to Marijuana in the event that they need it to get through an illness like Cancer, Leukemia, etc…Unlike Alcohol, Marijuana is proven to help many patients get through these treatments they may be undergoing by preventing nausea, increasing appetite, among other things.

So i’m sure someone will say, “well don’t you know that if you allow Marijuana use for medicinal purposes then people will abuse the system and still find ways to legally use it for recreational purposes?” My answer will be of course this will happen, it’s already happening in places like California and it is well documented. But I personally would not want any of my family members to be rejected the possibility to use a possible life saving drug (Marijuana) just because “some people” abuse the system and the law.

In Summary, I think as a Church we should be Pro Medicinal Marijuana. It is a proven life saver for medical purposes. There are other ways to receive the medicine aside from smoking such as eating, drinking, and Vaporizers. Just like Alcohol, we should tolerate the substance but be against it’s abuse (recreational use.)

KC,

The medical marijuana issue alone, not considering the recreational use or laws, are you in agreement that all Medical Marijuana should be as the stuff produced by Israel…found here…

abcnews.go.com/Health/israeli-grown-plant-offers-marijuana-high/story?id=16706085

a strain with all the medicinal properties but without the euphoria? Are you in agreement that this would be considered Pro Medical Marijuana?

In other words if all the medical marijuana were without euphoria is this acceptable?

 

[Mickey]

In Summary, I think as a Church we should be Pro Medicinal Marijuana. It is a proven life saver for medical purposes. There are other ways to receive the medicine aside from smoking such as eating, drinking, and Vaporizers. Just like Alcohol, we should tolerate the substance but be against it’s abuse (recreational use.)

A proven lifesaver?

Marijuana is a not a lifesaver for any disease. Chemotherapy can be a lifesaver. Surgery can be a lifesaver. Being anointed with oil from a miracle-working myrrh-streaming Icon can be a lifesaver…but not marijuana. It is reported that THC can ease some side effects from medicines such as chemo…or relieve pressure from glaucoma…but even here…the jury is still out…and there are much better drugs on the market for these things.

I am unconvinced about medicinal uses.

 

[Mickey]

In other words if all the medical marijuana were without euphoria is this acceptable?

Now you’re talkin’, my Coptic friend!

 

[Kc906]

KC,

The medical marijuana issue alone, not considering the recreational use or laws, are you in agreement that all Medical Marijuana should be as the stuff produced by Israel…found here…

abcnews.go.com/Health/israeli-grown-plant-offers-marijuana-high/story?id=16706085

a strain with all the medicinal properties but without the euphoria? Are you in agreement that this would be considered Pro Medical Marijuana?

In other words if all the medical marijuana were without euphoria is this acceptable?

This appears to be a pretty big breakthrough, and the early studies appear to be showing a positive affect. Longterm testing would need to be done of course to ensure that there are not any unforseen consequences, but I think this is a step in the right direction.

I guess the real question would be, would you find this to be an acceptable legal substance in the United States barring any long term side effects?

 

[CopticChristian]

This appears to be a pretty big breakthrough, and the early studies appear to be showing a positive affect. Longterm testing would need to be done of course to ensure that there are not any unforseen consequences, but I think this is a step in the right direction.

I guess the real question would be, would you find this to be an acceptable legal substance in the United States barring any long term side effects?

Kc,

As you know the big buga boo since the Harrison act is to outlaw drugs that make you feel good…side effects of euphoria usually indicate a problem that people in the field see as a problem because the drug of choice may be chosen for that effect. If medical marijuan had no euphoria then the obstacles for legalization would be minimal in my opinion.

 

[Kc906]

A proven lifesaver?

Marijuana is a not a lifesaver for any disease. Chemotherapy can be a lifesaver. Surgery can be a lifesaver. Being anointed with oil from a miracle-working myrrh-streaming Icon can be a lifesaver…but not marijuana. It is reported that THC can ease some side effects from medicines such as chemo…or relieve pressure from glaucoma…but even here…the jury is still out…and there are much better drugs on the market for these things.

I am unconvinced about medicinal uses.

You are correct Mickey, Chemotherapy and Radiation are treatments that ultimately end up healing the patients. At the same time, some patients who go through these treatments have trouble eating or keeping the food down. I’m sure you would agree that a body going through these treatments without adequate caloric intake could eventually be a leading factor to death.

At the same time, MS and Parkinson’s patients may disagree with you that medical Marijuana is not a life saver. I’m sure in many ways it helps them get their lives back to a certain extent, so I don’t see how this would not be classified as a life saver?

I agree that the jury is still out. I would like to see non-partisan studies conducted that compare the effects of pharmaceutical drugs compared to Marijuana. Compare how well each drug treats the condition, and compare the common side effects between the two as well. Perhaps there is information out there, but I have yet to come across anything like this…

 

[Sonofjesuschris]

I dont think because something is Legal makes it right.
abortions are legal to.
even if its legal dont make it right… dont get advice from Luke Warm, Brothers.
Follow christ not Men…

 

[Mickey]

I’m sure you would agree that a body going through these treatments without adequate caloric intake could eventually be a leading factor to death.

I remember reading there are better and safer drugs to quell nausea and stimulate appetite (other than marijuana).

At the same time, MS and Parkinson’s patients may disagree with you that medical Marijuana is not a life saver.

Do you have any hard core facts which suggest marijuana will save your life?

I’m sure in many ways it helps them get their lives back to a certain extent, so I don’t see how this would not be classified as a life saver?

Because it is not a cure…and there are better and more effective drugs to handle some of the symptoms of these diseases.