Excommunication looms for American Maryknoll active in 'Womanpriest' rites

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I believe that while people do have an absolute moral obligation to form their consciences rightly–if one were truly convinced in conscience that the Church ought to change it’s policy on the ordination of women, they could hold this as a private opinion or even use appropriate means to express their dissent within the Church, giving their reasons for such, in an effort to persuade the Magisterium to change it’s position. In practice this should come up only very very rarely.

What is inappropriate is to act publicly either in blatant disobedience to the Church’s teaching; OR to militate for a change in the Church’s teaching in a way calculated to embarrass or pressure the Church; OR to teach one’s private opinion as if it were equal to, instead of, or alongside of official Church teaching.

In this case, the priest in question not only behaved in a way that was intended to create public scandal, but he acted well beyond his actual authority. He is not observing any sort of discretion nor so far as I can tell is he really accounting for the Magisterium’s teaching on the subject nor giving valid reasons based upon Sacred Tradition or Scripture that might persuade the Church to change.
I am afraid I cannot agree with you. If someone were, in their conscience to believe that the Church should change the doctrine of a male-only priesthood, that is nothing less than firm proof that their conscience is improperly formed. Period. It does not matter if they keep this private or not.
 
I am afraid I cannot agree with you. If someone were, in their conscience to believe that the Church should change the doctrine of a male-only priesthood, that is nothing less than firm proof that their conscience is improperly formed. Period. It does not matter if they keep this private or not.
Well stated! It is absolutely sinful to raise hopes and expectations of woman on an issue the Church simply cannot change.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike
 
Well stated! It is absolutely sinful to raise hopes and expectations of woman on an issue the Church simply cannot change.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike
For the record: I oppose women’s ordination. I agree it has no basis in Scripture or Holy Tradition. It has not however yet been infallibly defined. It is hypothetically possible that new information might come forward or a re-evaluation of old evidence take place which might allow a change in the doctrine. Highly unlikely, but within the realm of possibility unless and until the issue is elevated via Church Council or Papal declaration to the status of an infallibly-declared dogma.

So far as the matter of “elevating women’s hopes”: that would fall under my own carefully-framed qualification of no longer being a privately-held opinion. The priest in question is definitely obligated to keep his opinion on the subject out of the public forum.

So far as the ‘improperly formed conscience’ issue is concerned: conscience, per the CCC, trumps even dogma on a strictly personal level of salvation. Again–I concur that the issue is for all intents and purposes settled and I don’t look for any change in the teaching to actually occur. But if someone, after examining all evidence available, and after long study and prayer, becomes convinced that the doctrine is NOT settled–I don’t believe such private doubts exclude one from the Church. Public teaching or practice DOES.
 
Has anyone gone to any of the women priests websites? I went to romancatholicwomenpriests.org, it was a link somewhere in this thread, probably from an article. Some of the things on that site shocked me, some things made me laugh, and some things I just thought were interesting. But in general I was surprised at how these people are all in such blatant opposition of Church Law!

One of the shocking things from the bottom of the ‘Reflections Page’ was a prayer by “Bishop” Fresden:
O, Divine Feminine, we are called to become one body, one spirit in Christ. We need to recognize each other’s gifts if we are to grow into that oneness. At times we may feel discouraged, hurt or even marginalized. Help us to gain the grace to cherish each other and our differences as both women and men, as a manifestation of your goodness and a church united in “whole-holiness”.
Give us the vision to recognize the mission of RCWP, a mission to develop a new priestly ministry of servant-hood. May your Spirit come upon us as we grow in wisdom in our ministries serving and contributing peace to others. Help us to be all that You, God, O Sophia have created us to be. For your Spirit’s presence in our lives and as we continue on this journey with the RCWP movement we are most grateful. Amen.
“O Divine Feminine”?! “You, God, O Sophia have created us to be”?! Since when did Jesus change His name to Sophia and become a GIRL?!?!? :eek:

One of the things I laughed at is seen at different parts of the sight but most easily found on the ‘Ordained’ page:
Roman Catholic Womenpriests reject the penalty of excommunication issued by the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith on May 29, 2008 stating that the “women priests and the bishops who ordain them would be excommunicated latae sententiae.” Roman Catholic Womenpriests are loyal members of the church who stand in the prophetic tradition of holy obedience to the Spirit’s call to change an unjust law that discriminates against women. Our movement is receiving enthusiastic responses on the local, national and international level. We will continue to serve our beloved church in a renewed priestly ministry that welcomes all to celebrate the sacraments in inclusive, Christ-centered, Spirit-empowered communities wherever we are called.
Yeah, they’re just gonna reject the penalty because that makes it not count… :rotfl:

Anyway, I just wanted to throw that info out there for those that are in favor of women priests. You should look up what these women are standing for because I don’t think “Sophia” is the same God as in the Catholic Church.

God bless,
Mari
 
Help me out on this one. I’m just a dumb protestant guy who doesn’t fully understand the RCC.

Catholic Priests who engaged in sexual sin with children were not excommunicated.

Catholic politicians in good standing with their church support the culture of death via abortion, assisted suicide, and euthenasia (PS?). None of them are excommunicated.

Catholic politicians in good standing with their church promote gay “Marriage”, and are not excommunicated.

But let a Catholic Priest ordain a woman, and oh boy! You want to excommunicate him on the spot.

I think you have your priorities mixed up. I don’t mean to offend, but this is a serious issue. It was the RCC’s refusal to do a little “house cleaning” that sparked the protestant reformation, right?🤷 :confused:
 
For the record: I oppose women’s ordination. I agree it has no basis in Scripture or Holy Tradition. It has not however yet been infallibly defined. It is hypothetically possible that new information might come forward or a re-evaluation of old evidence take place which might allow a change in the doctrine. Highly unlikely, but within the realm of possibility unless and until the issue is elevated via Church Council or Papal declaration to the status of an infallibly-declared dogma.

So far as the matter of “elevating women’s hopes”: that would fall under my own carefully-framed qualification of no longer being a privately-held opinion. The priest in question is definitely obligated to keep his opinion on the subject out of the public forum.

So far as the ‘improperly formed conscience’ issue is concerned: conscience, per the CCC, trumps even dogma on a strictly personal level of salvation. Again–I concur that the issue is for all intents and purposes settled and I don’t look for any change in the teaching to actually occur. But if someone, after examining all evidence available, and after long study and prayer, becomes convinced that the doctrine is NOT settled–I don’t believe such private doubts exclude one from the Church. Public teaching or practice DOES.
You are badly mistaken about conscience trumping dogma. You need to go back and read the CCC more closely. Check out 1786, “Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgement in accordance with **reason and divine law **or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.” Check out 1790 through 1794; simply put a Catholic conscience must be formed in communion with divine law as revealed by scripture and Christ’s Church. Catholics do not have the right to dissent from Catholic dogma…period ( check out Vatican I, a dogmatic council). Following your line of thinking people, based upon their personally formed conscience, can pick and choose what Church teachings they want to believe and follow whether it be female priests, contraception, divorce, ethanasia, or anything else. There are many Catholic dissident groups that have chosen to toss elements of dogma under the bus…do you think they are right in doing so?

One more thing. The Church as never made an ex-cathedra pronouncement on abortion…do you think the Church will permit abortion in the future? How about contraception and other life issues, will the Church bow to culture?

The Church and Pope John Paul II have spoken definitively on this matter. This means this belief must be held by ALL of the faithful. To teach to the contrary is to teach error.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike
 
You are badly mistaken about conscience trumping dogma. You need to go back and read the CCC more closely. Check out 1786, “Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgement in accordance with **reason and divine law **or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.” Check out 1790 through 1794; simply put a Catholic conscience must be formed in communion with divine law as revealed by scripture and Christ’s Church. Catholics do not have the right to dissent from Catholic dogma…period ( check out Vatican I, a dogmatic council). Following your line of thinking people, based upon their personally formed conscience, can pick and choose what Church teachings they want to believe and follow whether it be female priests, contraception, divorce, euthanasia, or anything else. There are many Catholic dissident groups that have chosen to toss elements of dogma under the bus…do you think they are right in doing so?

One more thing. The Church as never made an ex-cathedra pronouncement on abortion…do you think the Church will permit abortion in the future? How about contraception and other life issues, will the Church bow to culture?

The Church and Pope John Paul II have spoken definitively on this matter. This means this belief must be held by ALL of the faithful. To teach to the contrary is to teach error.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike
Please note the portions of the post I am specifically responding to highlighted in red above.

As a hypothetical, yes teaching about abortion or birth control could become a doctrine about which the teachings of the Church change. We do not disagree on what the Church or the Magisterium teach normatively, nor do I disagree with these teachings. I think we may have a disagreement in here somewhere about how much real latitude the Church might have to change these teachings–but I don’t actually expect any changes to occur as per my following comments.

As a practical matter, I rather expect that issues such as abortion, female ordination, birth control etcetera are much more likely to be elevated to the status of formal dogmas. I’ve looked at some of the arguments put forward for women’s ordination–Episcopalians have been quarreling over the issue for decades. They fall mainly into two camps: evidence from tradition that is largely speculative or which stretches the context unreasonably. Or evidence which rejects tradition out-of-hand. I don’t look for any radical changes to take place in Church teaching based upon such reasoning.

(I am, btw, leaving Episcopalianism and returning to the Catholic Church precisely because I think the CC will actually stand up for what it believes is the truth, as opposed to drifting with the culture as it will. This does not mean that I think it utterly impossible that some changes may occur in the CC, if serious reason eventually arises. I don’t think it is likely, but I recognize it is within the realm of possibility–John Newman for example made a perfectly-reasonable case for the ‘development of doctrine’, even before he became a Catholic).

People who dissent from official teaching based on **grave reasons **(not willy-nilly, without anything but their personal preferences or biases to go upon) retain the right of conscience to do so. I’ll have to dig around a bit in the CCC to find the precise passages but so long as a person has done their absolute level best to inform their consciences and so long as they have absolutely grave reasons for reserving their consciences on a matter they not only may do so but must do so. As per the following:

**1782 **Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. “He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.”

**1790 **A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.

**1800 **A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.

(Granted that I had to gloss over probably three passages apiece, admonishing the obligation to rightly form one’s conscience, to find each of the three passages I cited above–but I am not arguing that one does not have the obligation to rightly form one’s conscience, any more than I am arguing for women’s ordination, birth control, or abortion. I know some folks have a hard time with nuance and subtlety, but it’s a rather limited aspect of this issue that I am arguing for).

They have an absolute duty to conform their practice within the Church to the official teachings of the Church. This means, no ordaining women priests in fake ceremonies that would have no standing in the Church even if women could be ordained. It also means no forming of ‘encounter groups’, ‘focus groups’ or ‘teaching groups’ speculating on the ordination of women. (It should imply no nuns teaching even in a secular university on an unrelated secular topic speculating as an aside that the class could expect to see women ordained to the priesthood in their lifetimes–but I heard at least one nun speculate precisely along those lines in the middle 1980’s).

So, I don’t disagree with the disciplinary actions being taken against the priest. He acted outside of his authority on so many levels it is as if he is attempting to provoke the Church into taking strong action. Do we know, by the way, if the priest was ever actually excommunicated?
 
As a hypothetical, yes teaching about abortion or birth control could become a doctrine about which the teachings of the Church change.

As a practical matter, I rather expect that issues such as abortion, female ordination, birth control etcetera are much more likely to be elevated to the status of formal dogmas.

(I am, btw, leaving Episcopalianism and returning to the Catholic Church

People who dissent from official teaching based on **grave reasons **(not willy-nilly, without anything but their personal preferences or biases to go upon)
(CCC citations)
**1782 **
**1790 **
**1800 **

Welcome back to the One True, Universal and Apostolic Church!

We are getting closer together in our views. A few points:

First, you need to define grave reasons, specifically what does that mean? I ask because this is the same logic I get when I run across the various Catholic ‘dissident’ groups, for example:
  • ARCC (Association for the Rights of Catholics in the Church) who want the Church to change its teaching on divorce and remarriage and wants to select parish priests and bishops by the laity; Call to Action who wants celibacy ended, wants to select their own bishops and change Church teachings on sexuality; Catholics for a Free Choice who promote abortion; Catholics for a Free Choice who promote contraception and abortion; Roman Catholic Womenpriests, CORPUS, who are promoting women ordination. This goes on and on and on…
Feeneyites, Married Priests Now, FutureChurch, New Ways Ministry, Rainbow Sash Movement, We Are Church, Women’s Ordination Conference…All of these dissident groups claim to have ‘grave reasons’ for rejecting Church teachings and all, sadly, are on the wrong side of divine law and the Church.

Based upon the ‘grave reason’ logic, anyone can pick and choose anything they want to believe or disbelieve, but what is the basis for these grave reasons?
  1. Your CCC citations must be read in the context for forming your conscience. If a conscience is not formed in communion with the Word of God, what is forming it?
  2. Many Catholics do not understand what they must believe as Catholics. I suggest you read the documents from Vatican I. They are clear and will help you understand infallibility as it relates to the Pope, Apostolic Tradition and the Ordinary and Universal teachings of the Church.
Below I’ve pasted an extract from Vatican I, Chapter 4.9 on the supreme teaching authority of the Roman pontiff:
  1. Therefore,
    • faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith,
    • to the glory of God our saviour,
    • for the exaltation of the catholic religion and
    • for the salvation of the christian people,
    • with the approval of the sacred council,


    1. *
      • we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that
      • when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
      • that is, when,
        1. **in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, **
        2. **in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, **
        3. **he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, **

        • he possesses,
        • by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
        • that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
        • Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.
        1. So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.
      • From Chapter 3 On Faith:
            1. Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed
            2. which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition,
            3. and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed,
            4. whether by her solemn judgment
            5. or in her ordinary and universal magisterium.

          • Catholics simply can’t pick and choose what that want to believe on the pretext that their conscience is well-formed and informed when in fact they are being influenced by culture or relativism and not by God’s Word.

            God Bless,

            Iowa Mike
 
Pope John Paul II said it very accurately when he said that the ordination of a woman COULD not occur. It is something only God can change…
How do we know it’s God’s will and not just centuries of sexism which has become enshrined in Church teaching?

If God wanted it known that it was his will to have women priests, how would he communicate it? Could he do that only to the pope? Would a God who did not distinguish between men and women in such a sexist way be a greater God?

I think it would be great to have women priests myself, and St Paul did state that “in Christ there are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female.” (Galatians 3:28).
 
As a hypothetical, yes teaching about abortion or birth control could become a doctrine about which the teachings of the Church change.

As a practical matter, I rather expect that issues such as abortion, female ordination, birth control etcetera are much more likely to be elevated to the status of formal dogmas.

(I am, btw, leaving Episcopalianism and returning to the Catholic Church

People who dissent from official teaching based on **grave reasons **(not willy-nilly, without anything but their personal preferences or biases to go upon)
(CCC citations)
**1782 **
**1790 **
**1800 **

Welcome back to the One True, Universal and Apostolic Church!

We are getting closer together in our views. A few points:

First, you need to define grave reasons, specifically what does that mean? I ask because this is the same logic I get when I run across the various Catholic ‘dissident’ groups, for example:
  • ARCC (Association for the Rights of Catholics in the Church) who want the Church to change its teaching on divorce and remarriage and wants to select parish priests and bishops by the laity; Call to Action who wants celibacy ended, wants to select their own bishops and change Church teachings on sexuality; Catholics for a Free Choice who promote abortion; Catholics for a Free Choice who promote contraception and abortion; Roman Catholic Womenpriests, CORPUS, who are promoting women ordination. This goes on and on and on…
Feeneyites, Married Priests Now, FutureChurch, New Ways Ministry, Rainbow Sash Movement, We Are Church, Women’s Ordination Conference…All of these dissident groups claim to have ‘grave reasons’ for rejecting Church teachings and all, sadly, are on the wrong side of divine law and the Church.

Based upon the ‘grave reason’ logic, anyone can pick and choose anything they want to believe or disbelieve, but what is the basis for these grave reasons?
  1. Your CCC citations must be read in the context for forming your conscience. If a conscience is not formed in communion with the Word of God, what is forming it?
  2. Many Catholics do not understand what they must believe as Catholics. I suggest you read the documents from Vatican I. They are clear and will help you understand infallibility as it relates to the Pope, Apostolic Tradition and the Ordinary and Universal teachings of the Church.
Below I’ve pasted an extract from Vatican I, Chapter 4.9 on the supreme teaching authority of the Roman pontiff:

From Chapter 3 On Faith:

Catholics simply can’t pick and choose what that want to believe on the pretext that their conscience is well-formed and informed when in fact they are being influenced by culture or relativism and not by God’s Word.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike
The formation of organizations in clear opposition to Magisterial teaching goes beyond what I understand the Church teaches about liberty of conscience. I’ve only said that in every post I’ve entered in this thread. I have elaborated enough on how I understand the issue. To the best of my knowledge “grave reason” is something already defined by Catholic theology. I chose the term expressly because I think the understanding of that expression within Catholic teaching sharply limits the occasions whereupon one might validly take exception to Magisterial teaching.

The arguments made by SOME proponents of women’s ordination are couched in terms of Scripture and Holy Tradition–usually pre-Nicene Patristic fathers.

As I have said, not overwhelmingly convincing arguments, IMHO, but they are framed in such a way that they could possibly rise to the level of the standards framed by your citations from Vatican I. I DOUBT IT, barring some sort of extensive discovery equivalent to the Dead Sea Scrolls or something of that sort. In the event of such a discovery, it might be possible to suggest that the traditions of sexism of the past 1600 years or so may have obscured the authentic Traditions of the Apostolic Church. I really don’t expect such a happenstance, nor would I really expect it to open the way for such a change. It is simply one conceivable way a change might happen.

I really expect that as the debate persists, one or more of the controversial issues will be explicitly, infallibly defined. Hopefully such a definition, or two or three, will close off the sense of a Cafeteria Catholicism once and for all. It may make for a much smaller Church however . . . .

BTW–re-read my posts in this thread. I haven’t ‘moved’–I think we were simply talking at cross-purposes.
 
Justice demands that he gets an opportunity to recant, just in case he was misunderstood or if he misunderstood his own self. Thereafter, if he does not recant, justice will demand to proclaim that he has severed himself - cut off like a withering twig - no life or sap inside! What a waste!
 
Justice demands that he gets an opportunity to recant, just in case he was misunderstood or if he misunderstood his own self. Thereafter, if he does not recant, justice will demand to proclaim that he has severed himself - cut off like a withering twig - no life or sap inside! What a waste!
This kind of talk sends a shiver down my spine - would you burn him as a heretic too, I wonder?

Do we worship a God lof love, or don’t we?
 
This kind of talk sends a shiver down my spine - would you burn him as a heretic too, I wonder?

Do we worship a God lof love, or don’t we?
The last line is pure sophistry.Christ was a man as well as God.The priest acts in Personae Christi.The apostles Christ chose were all men.Rome in the person of the Pope has spoken.Period.End of discussion.Pope John Paul the Great said it and Benedict XVI confirmed it-be obedient to the magisterium of the Church if you call yourself Catholic!
 
Help me out on this one. I’m just a dumb protestant guy who doesn’t fully understand the RCC.

Catholic Priests who engaged in sexual sin with children were not excommunicated.

Catholic politicians in good standing with their church support the culture of death via abortion, assisted suicide, and euthenasia (PS?). None of them are excommunicated.

Catholic politicians in good standing with their church promote gay “Marriage”, and are not excommunicated.

But let a Catholic Priest ordain a woman, and oh boy! You want to excommunicate him on the spot.

I think you have your priorities mixed up. I don’t mean to offend, but this is a serious issue. It was the RCC’s refusal to do a little “house cleaning” that sparked the protestant reformation, right?🤷 :confused:
Hi Chris, I’m just a poor dumb Catholic guy who doesn’t fully understand the RCC, but I’ll try to help. What I am about to say is anecdotal at best, so someone may have to correct me if I stray too far from the facts.

Those horrible pedophile Priests that repented of their sin were allowed to remain Catholic. All were either removed from the Priesthood or given non-pastoral duties.

Those Catholic politicians that “support the culture of death via abortion, assisted suicide, and euthanasia” and “promote gay marriage” are not actively and publicly demanding the Church support those things. And they are not Priests.

This Priest, if his conscience demands that he support the ordination of women, should publicly resign his Priesthood, step down from his “pulpit”, and return to the laity. Anything less is professional dishonesty. There are many lay Catholics who believe in the ordination of women and you don’t see them being excommunicated. His unrepentant determination to change the Church from his position of “power” is the problem.

Being a Priest is serious business, and a Priest who cannot “toe-the-line” should remove himself from the temptation to lead others into error.

Sure the Church, and some of its Popes have made errors, and will make errors. But no Pope has ever declared his error to be infallible, and the Church hasn’t either.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
  • Jesus, as quoted in Matthew 16:18 - 19
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.
*- From the Vatican, on May 22, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 1994, the sixteenth of my Pontificate, *ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS OF JOHN PAUL II
… you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
  • 1 Timothy 3:15
 
Jesus may not have included women among the apostles - but then he didn’t include Poles or Germans, or non-Jews, either…

One day the Church will come to apologise for such attitudes, as it eventually did for its involvement in slavery. The sad thing is that the so-called moral teachings of the church mostly resemble those of the Taliban, and yet it is mostly Americans (presumably) who reiterate them on this website.

🙂
I’ll have you know that slave traders since the dark ages were excommunicated for trafficking slaves. In the mid 16th century Pope Paul III, issued a bull against Native American enslavement. and I believe another pope condemned black slavery. This si sort of off topic, but i had to crush this one immediately as i saw it. Dont mess with an AP European History student!:knight1: :knight2:
 
What other doctrine does this priest want to through under the bus? Pope John Paul II in his encyclical Ordinatio Sacradotalis definitively stated, “Wherefore, in order that all doubt, dispute, and controversy may be removed regarding a matter of great importance and true significance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) and as supreme pastor and teacher, with the authority of Jesus Christ and the Apostles Peter and Paul and my own authority, I declare, define, and pronounce that the Church has no authority or capacity or capability whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment, decision, and pronouncement is to be definitively, absolutely, and unquestionably held by all the Church’s faithful forever and ever and ever…”

Add Apostolic Tradition and the constant teaching of the Ordinary and Universal Magesterium…solid doctrine.

Iowa Mike
Regardless of what you believe, it is critical to point out that Iowa Mike is misquoting Ordinatio Sacerdotalis! Pope JP2 the Great did NOT write “as supreme pastor and teacher, with the authority of Jesus Christ and the Apostles Peter and Paul and my own authority” nor did he write “forever and ever and ever” (which would be an awfully hyperbolic and vernacular statement anyway for a formal encyclical). Truth be told, he didn’t even say “forever”. These words may be a valid interpretation of the meaning and intent, I don’t know, but enclosing it in quotation marks indicated falsely that these were the Holy Father’s actual words. I acknowledge that Iowa Mike’s later post quoting O.S. again, did quote it correctly. BTW, I am not sure of my belief on women’s ordination - I am always thinking, praying, examining my conscience about the issue but am inclined to trust Holy Mother Church on this one. What I know for sure however, is that if opponents of ordaining women need to resort to putting their own words in the mouth (pen) of Pope John Paul II in order to strengthen their position, it calls that position into question…
 
Hi Chris, I’m just a poor dumb Catholic guy who doesn’t fully understand the RCC, but I’ll try to help. What I am about to say is anecdotal at best, so someone may have to correct me if I stray too far from the facts.

Those horrible pedophile Priests that repented of their sin were allowed to remain Catholic. All were either removed from the Priesthood or given non-pastoral duties.

Those Catholic politicians that “support the culture of death via abortion, assisted suicide, and euthanasia” and “promote gay marriage” are not actively and publicly demanding the Church support those things. And they are not Priests.

This Priest, if his conscience demands that he support the ordination of women, should publicly resign his Priesthood, step down from his “pulpit”, and return to the laity. Anything less is professional dishonesty. There are many lay Catholics who believe in the ordination of women and you don’t see them being excommunicated. His unrepentant determination to change the Church from his position of “power” is the problem.

Being a Priest is serious business, and a Priest who cannot “toe-the-line” should remove himself from the temptation to lead others into error.

Sure the Church, and some of its Popes have made errors, and will make errors. But no Pope has ever declared his error to be infallible, and the Church hasn’t either.
Somebody who is actively procuring and enabling the killing of innocent human beings shouldn’t be excommunicated?
 
I’ll have you know that slave traders since the dark ages were excommunicated for trafficking slaves. In the mid 16th century Pope Paul III, issued a bull against Native American enslavement. and I believe another pope condemned black slavery. This si sort of off topic, but i had to crush this one immediately as i saw it. Dont mess with an AP European History student!:knight1: :knight2:
“By 1570 the Inquisition had established an independent tribunal in Peru and the city of Mexico…Natives who did not convert to Christianity were burned like any other heretic” - Ellerbe - The Dark Side of Christian History, p. 88 quoting Plaidy, *The Spanish Inquisition *(1967), p. 165.

Securus judicat orbis terrarum (St Augustine, who also wrote in his City of God that “…slavery is now penal in character, and planned by that law which commands the preservation of the natural order and forbids disturbance.”

Ritthichai
(with a postgraduate degree in history)
 
"By 1570 the Inquisition had established an independent tribunal in Peru and the city of Mexico….Natives who did not convert to Christianity were burned like any other heretic" - Ellerbe - The Dark Side of Christian History, p. 88 quoting Plaidy, *The Spanish Inquisition *(1967), p. 165.

Securus judicat orbis terrarum (St Augustine, who also wrote in his City of God that “…slavery is now penal in character, and planned by that law which commands the preservation of the natural order and forbids disturbance.”

Ritthichai
(with a postgraduate degree in history)
First off, burning heretics at the stake is not slavery, and i really dont want to get into all the theological reasons that heretics were burned, but trust me its not what you think. Also, St. Augustine is not the Magesterium of the Church, but one bishop. It is sad, but even Catholics think that one saints words are enough to establish Dogma from Heaven. Then again, slavery is not banned in the bible…but The Church still stood against it.
*“We, who, though unworthy, exercise on earth the power of our Lord and seek with all our might to bring those sheep of His flock who are outside into the fold committed to our charge, consider, however, that the Indians are truly men and that they are not only capable of understanding the Catholic Faith but, according to our information, they desire exceedingly to receive it. Desiring to provide ample remedy for these evils, We define and declare…that, notwithstanding whatever may have been or may be said to the contrary, the said Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians, are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ; and that they may and should, freely and legitimately, enjoy their liberty and the possession of their property; nor should they be in any way enslaved; should the contrary happen, it shall be null and have no effect.” *Pope Paul III -Sublimus Dei 1537.
 
The formation of organizations in clear opposition to Magisterial teaching goes beyond what I understand the Church teaches about liberty of conscience. I’ve only said that in every post I’ve entered in this thread. I have elaborated enough on how I understand the issue. To the best of my knowledge “grave reason” is something already defined by Catholic theology. I chose the term expressly because I think the understanding of that expression within Catholic teaching sharply limits the occasions whereupon one might validly take exception to Magisterial teaching.

The arguments made by SOME proponents of women’s ordination are couched in terms of Scripture and Holy Tradition–usually pre-Nicene Patristic fathers.

As I have said, not overwhelmingly convincing arguments, IMHO, but they are framed in such a way that they could possibly rise to the level of the standards framed by your citations from Vatican I. I DOUBT IT, barring some sort of extensive discovery equivalent to the Dead Sea Scrolls or something of that sort. In the event of such a discovery, it might be possible to suggest that the traditions of sexism of the past 1600 years or so may have obscured the authentic Traditions of the Apostolic Church. I really don’t expect such a happenstance, nor would I really expect it to open the way for such a change. It is simply one conceivable way a change might happen.

I really expect that as the debate persists, one or more of the controversial issues will be explicitly, infallibly defined. Hopefully such a definition, or two or three, will close off the sense of a Cafeteria Catholicism once and for all. It may make for a much smaller Church however . . . .

BTW–re-read my posts in this thread. I haven’t ‘moved’–I think we were simply talking at cross-purposes.
I’ve given you CCC citations that refute your standing on conscience. If you choose to ignore them, that is your ‘free will’ decision. If you truly want to form a Catholic conscience you are obligated to look into the matter more deeply (CCC 1783, 1784, 1791, 1792 etc.).

I’d appreciate a list of your citations re: ‘grave reasons’ because I don’t see any difference between the views of those that have joined some organized dissident group and individuals that hold the same views privately. All have these ‘grave reasons’ for throwing Catholic doctrine and beliefs under the bus but when asked to explain their views are usually driven by secular or relativistic views.

I would like to see the specific citations of the Patristic Fathers as I am unfamiliar with any scriptual support for the ordination of women. Apostolic Tradition, the constant teaching of the Ordinary and Universal Magesterium and Pope John Paul II’s, “Ordinatio Sacradotalis” come down in support of my arguments to you.

I suggest you explore infallibility as it relations to the bishops and "Sense of the Faithful who are in communion with the Holy Father, the Church’s solemn judments, Papal Bulls and Encyclicals and the constant teachings of the Ordinary and Universal Magesterium more closely.

Doctrine is truth, truth does not change so there will be no future findings that will nullify current doctrine.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike
 
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