I think it is the other way around. We are saved by grace, so that we CAN obey all the commandments! It is possible to follow them by grace, through faith. This is what people in the OT did. As He says “my righteous one shall live by faith”. Those who were able to keep the Law of the Lord did so in this way.
Just as Eph. 2:10 is a stumbling block for many.
This is what you have been taught to say, but it is not accurate. It is possible to walk in righteousness, according to God’s commandments,and to avoid sin. In fact, this is how He intends for us to walk. If we fall short, we confess our sins, and He is faithful and just to forgive them. It is not prideful to keep His commandments. It is our duty to Him.
I am glad that your faith tradition has kept this Catholic truth. there are many teachings of the Apostles that have gotten lost when the Reformers departed from the faith. However, the Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of our own works, lest any man should boast.
We cease to sin because His grace is at work in us. God did not create us for sin, but to walke with Him in righeousness. It is not necessary for humans to sin. There are some people who, by grace, through faith, keep the commandments.
Granted, we are all people in process, but to separate this coming to holiness from salvation is a mistake. They go together. The one God justifies, He sanctifies.
It is not “boasting” to keep the commandments of God. We can only obey them by grace, through faith. This is our worship to Him. We are expected to be perfect and holy. It is not acceptable to say we are saved by grace, without the obligation to obey His commandments.
This is what you have been taught to believe, but it is a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. They taught that salvation is for here and now, as well as for there and then. They taught that we are to be perfect, as our heavenly father is perfect. They taught that we should walk in holiness,a nd obedience, and not be aware of any sins in ourselves at all.
The two are not contradictory, yankee. A person can walk in God’s commandments with a humble heart, that seeks His forgiveness when they fall. But it is not necessary to sin.
We consider such statements insulting, yankee. Basically you are saying that Catholics are not Christians.
The two are not contradictory, yankee. When we humble ourselves before God, and allow His grace to work in our lives, we are enabled to do all that He commanded
Do you believe these were works of the flesh, or ergos hagios?
It sounds like you never learned to do this after you were baptized Catholic.
This Catholic teaching also did not seem clear to you at the time.
It is clear that you suffer from a misunderstanding of the Apostolic teaching on priesthood. As in the OT, in the NT there are three levels of priesthood, that of all believers, the ministerial priesthood, and a High Priest. In the NT, which is the fulfillment of the Old, all of these have their identity from God, who alone mediates between God adn man. Even the High Priest in the OT acted on behalf of God and the People, not himself.
It is very Catholic of you to say this too. There is only one priesthood, that of Jesus. The NT ministerial priests, along with the people of God, are made priestly in, with, and through Him. There is no priesthood apart from Him.
I venture to guess that you did not see this phenomenon after you were Baptised Catholic. If you had, you might not have felt it necessary to go elsewhere.
I think if you will look open mindedly at this scripture, you will see that it is being taken out of context. If you read the Psalm from which it comes, there is a clear comparison there of unrighteous (unbelievers) and righteous (believers). Paul is using that scripture to support his arguement that both Jews and Gentiles can be unrighteous (faithless), and righteous (faithful) and that there are no “benefits” given to Jews just because they are Jews. They are as capable of falling from faith as Gentiles.
No, yankee, this is an insidious lie from the pit. God does not command us to do that which is fruitless. The Apostolic teachings are clear that we are to fight against sin with all our might, working out our salvation, because God is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure.
Sorry, Yankee, but maybe you should read some of Moondwellers’s posts. He will emphazise for you that once we are in Christ, we are a new creation. the old has passed away. We are no longer sinners, but saints. We have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. Those who are in Christ have been adopted, grafted into Him, the chief cornerstone. For such persons, spiritual devotions have great power in their effects.
This is what the Catholic Church believes and teaches, yankee. Apparently you did not get the message, which is regrettable. However, the fact that you did not “get it”, does not change the facts. What you have written here is Catholic.
The Apostles taught that we are put in right relationship with God in baptism, when we are joined with Him in his suffering and death.
I think you are missing the point, yankee. The person is faithful and devout BECAUSE they are saved. They participate in these spiritual devotions as an outgrowth of SAVING FAITH. No, it is not devotion that saves, though it has saving effects. Everyone is saved by grace, through faith.
Here is another statement that reflects your lack of understanding about Catholicism. You are not alone by any means. There are hundreds of thousands of poorly catechized
This is true. However, they did not believe they were inventing. They believed they were getting “back to the basics”. What they really wanted was a more pure church. They did not realize that, although men are always in need of Reform, the doctrine of Jesus is not.
I dont’ think this is a fair or accurate assessment of the Reformers, nor of MD and Yankee. None of them were looking for Christianity “lite”. This modern American Fundamentalist notion is only about 200 years old, and does not characterize the original Reformers, who were all very staunch about holiness and right living.so they could then teach you whatever they wanted and secularize the faith into a new “Christianity Lite” - essentially an easy Christianity that would be wildly popular with the populace. A sort of “eat, drink, be merry for tomorrow we die - but so what because now we are saved!”.
Yes, MD and Yankee agree with us on this point. It is expected that we will bear the fruits that befit repentance. They just see salvation differently than we do.
I don’t think this can be true, since neither of them recognize that the CC is the one founded by Christ, nor do they recognize the authority He gave to the Church. They also both suffer from a deficient notion of the nature of Church.
Yes, the Bible says this, along with it saying that there are righteous people, some who obey the law perfectly. What is debatable here is your perception of what scripture means when it says there are none righteous. Since you have taken the passage out of context, and ignored other scriptures related to the same topic, it is quite clear that it is you speaking this opinion about Scripture, not God.
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I dont think anyone on this thread (except you) thinks that Catholics strive for righteousness “on our own”. For Catholics, it is God who is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. When we walk according to the Spirit, and not the flesh, we walk in righteousness.
Yes, Yankee, it does. The Bible says a lot of things. Here is one:
Walking in righteousness does not mean that a person never falls short. It means that, when they fall short, they use the means God has provided to make atonement. For example, in our righteous couple above, it is possible that one of them fell short, but if they did they would use the method of atonement provided in the Law of Moses. This is what all the saints have done.
Actually, it does not say that. On the contrary, it says that nothing unclean can enter heaven, so all the humans that were taken up to heaven would have to be without sin.
The two are not separated, Yankee. When one believes in God for their righteousness, He works that righteousness into their being.
NO, Yankee, we don’t. The rest of us think it is a sin to lie, and have impure thoughts, so we have renounced such behaviors as incompatible with the Christian life. Yes, we are all in need of salvation, and that salvation is intended to save us right here, right now. We are to be dead to our sins, and not still live in them.
You have been given misinformation, Yankee. God’s grace has been shed abroad, yes, but not all will benefit from it. Those that try to get into the wedding banquet without the proper garment will be thrown out!
We do not forsake the assembling of ourselves together, as is the habit of some. I am not sure what you mean by “church rituals”. However, the initiation into Christian life is Baptism. God asked this of us when He gave this instruction to His Apostles. Jesus taught it on many occasions using many different methods. We are born again by water and spirit when we enter the bath of regeneration. We keep the flame of faith alive by celebrating the Lord’s Supper, which He commanded that we do as an anamnesis of Him. This table is only open to those who have been born again and confessed their sins as He instructed.
It is very Catholic of you to say this! I think for some reason you don’t realize that this verse was written by a Catholic, to Catholics. It is a Catholic teaching.
You still seem to be suffering from a lack of understanding of ergos hagios.
Phil 3:10-15
You only think that because when you saw this:
I think that yankee also forgot Matthew 25:31-47…
Indeed, but Yankee’s premise is that Paul (not His Master) taught faith alone. The whole faith-alone theology is premised on Paul teaching faith alone which is premised on burning the first two chapters of Romans in addition to all of Paul’s other epistles.
I think the problem with Reading Paul’s epistles outside of the rest of the rest of the Bible and Catholic traditions, is that people misunderstand his point about the Mosaic law. Paul is VERY focused on the reality that Jesus put forth a new covenant, with a different covenant relationship , that replaced the Old Covenant.
And burinng Paul’s lifestyle, and his identity as a Catholic.
And curiously, this is a position that was not held by any of the original Reformers, all of who believed that moral conduct is essential for the Christian. It is interesting to see how theology continues to evolve when it is separated from the Church founded by Christ.
Have you ever counted the times you have co-operated with God’s grace? Have you ever counted the times you have NOT co-operated with God’s grace?
What does this have to do with salvation? If you break one law, you’re guilty of breaking all of them. Without God’s grace we cannot make it to heaven. Remission of sins can only come about through the shedding of blood…the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ.
These passages are saying that God calls everyone of us to himself, regardless of our actions and that every one can be saved through the mercy of God. But don’t be decieved, It does NOT say that we will go to heaven regardless of our actions. After we have been saved through baptism, we are still held accountable to following God’s moral laws and we are still called to Love. If we do not, we will be condemned as described in Romans 2 and Matthew 25 among other places. You mus live out your faith, Do you deny this point?
The verses I quoted speak for themselves. I can give you examples of people who live morally upright lives, don’t smoke or do drugs, help out their neighbor, donate to charity, volunteer their time, etc etc. If these people do not know Christ as their Savior or have rejected Him, do they have eternal salvation, yes or no?