Family size as "evidence" of ABC use

[MrsMW]

If you do have any documentation that proves that it is unhealthy for any woman, regardless of situation, nutrition, health, resources, medical care, etc. to ever have children less than 2 years apart I would like to read it, I am always interested in learning more in this area. I just don’t want any mothers reading this to feel like they are being irresponsible or negligent by being open to blessings before this period since each woman’s situation is unique, and God has a different plan for each one of us. I mean, even one of the practitioners at my OB likes to use the blanket statement of waiting 1 year before conceiving again (my OB sees it more as a case to case), and even following that guideline the babies could still end up being under 2 years apart. The beauty of the Church’s teachings is that if a couple does see the need to space children further (for serious/just etc reasons, and health can be one of those reasons) they can use NFP to do so, but we can’t assume that everyone has to do it, that everyone should space a certain amount, and anything different is “too soon”. While close spacing can make a parent weary, the temperament, health etc of the children can be a big factor too. We are getting ready to have our 5th baby (all have had a spacing under 2 yrs ) and for me personally so far the most difficult time, the time I was the most weary, was when my first was born and I was a parent of 1. I have no idea what this 5th baby will be like, maybe he will be the most difficult, maybe labor will be different, maybe health issues will arise in the future where we will need to space our children more, but for now, I am thankful for the little blessings we have received and the relationships they have formed.

The risk is anemia. I have had it and it is miserable. No one is saying not to have them. While for many they have been problem free many have had problems. Plus with having babies so close to one another many women are just plain weary. I agree that no one should say anything to you but if they do maybe they just worry about your overall health.

The orthodox Catholics out there glorify the family with a big number of kids who homeschool. Sometimes people can’t live up to that. Don’t think that whatever works for you will work for them.

 

[HouseArrest]

Thank you, Easter Joy and life is beautiful. It is difficult to know how to respond in those situations. They usually come up without notice, as well, and often in mixed company. I appreciate the discussion.

 

[EasterJoy]

The risk is anemia. I have had it and it is miserable. No one is saying not to have them. While for many they have been problem free many have had problems. Plus with having babies so close to one another many women are just plain weary. I agree that no one should say anything to you but if they do maybe they just worry about your overall health.

The orthodox Catholics out there glorify the family with a big number of kids who homeschool. Sometimes people can’t live up to that. Don’t think that whatever works for you will work for them.

The legitimate need to space births or even to delay trying for a first child depends on a combination of factors that are unique for each married couple. Their families can’t do it for them. Their physicans can’t do it for them. Their accountant can’t do it for them. Their pastor can’t even do it for them. All anyone else can do is to tell them the general guidelines on which to base their decision. One would hope that if we’re called upon to do that, we make it clear at the same time who it is that will rightly have the decision of how to live that out in real life.

The same goes for homeschooling. Based on my conversations with those who do homeschool, there are more than a few people doing it who would do better to employ the help of people with professional training in education. I think there is a growing awareness that it is in the best interest of the homeschooling movement to help people accept it when their family is not among the good candidates for it. It is not right for everyone, and there is no shame in that. I have a college friend who even has some kids in parochial school and some schooling at home. Obviously, she would say that there isn’t an option that is right for every child, not even every child in the same family.

Our kids were speech-delayed and hearing impaired, so I didn’t get any pushing from the homeschool believers. Even they didn’t expect me to become an instant expert in audiology and speech pathology. Even so, I’ve been very impressed with our kids’ teachers. I’ve learned a lot about raising my own children by watching them teach, and that is continuing right up into middle school. Funny thing, a person who has taught 11 year old boys for ten years can teach a few things to those of us going through it for the first time!

 

[mcrow]

Ok, first things first.

I keep seeing people here saying “how can you know?” and bringing up people who are infertile or have trouble conceiving. Of course I have great sympathy for those with this situation. However, they do make up a very small minority of the population. This is why people look around churches and see very few large families and put two and two together.

If it’s not ABC the what it is? Why do we see fewer large families?

NFP??? I doubt it. I’ve never even heard of it until I visited this site. Heck, my wife never heard of it and she’s a cradle Catholic from a devout family. I don’t doubt that there Catholics who use NFP and the number may even be rising for all we know but it cannot be being used enough to explain the drops in large families.

Infertility? Again, I doubt it. Unless you have proof that there are higher rates of infertility, this does not explain it either.

I never judge anyone. It’s not like I go to church and see a couple with one kid and think to myself “I be they’re using condoms”. No, that’s not what this is about. This is about the Catholic community as a whole.

It is a problem. A bigger problem than many people here seem to think. Again, I feel terrible for those with fertility problems but I’m not judging people individually, I’m judging our community as a whole. Obviously, I cannot know who is using NFP or ABC or who is infertile so it’s beyond me to judge people.

 

[EasterJoy]

Ok, first things first.

I keep seeing people here saying “how can you know?” and bringing up people who are infertile or have trouble conceiving. Of course I have great sympathy for those with this situation. However, they do make up a very small minority of the population. This is why people look around churches and see very few large families and put two and two together.

If it’s not ABC the what it is? Why do we see fewer large families?

NFP??? I doubt it. I’ve never even heard of it until I visited this site. Heck, my wife never heard of it and she’s a cradle Catholic from a devout family. I don’t doubt that there Catholics who use NFP and the number may even be rising for all we know but it cannot be being used enough to explain the drops in large families.

Infertility? Again, I doubt it. Unless you have proof that there are higher rates of infertility, this does not explain it either.

I never judge anyone. It’s not like I go to church and see a couple with one kid and think to myself “I be they’re using condoms”. No, that’s not what this is about. This is about the Catholic community as a whole.

It is a problem. A bigger problem than many people here seem to think. Again, I feel terrible for those with fertility problems but I’m not judging people individually, I’m judging our community as a whole. Obviously, I cannot know who is using NFP or ABC or who is infertile so it’s beyond me to judge people.

I grew up when there were families of eight and even ten or twelve. I know many NFP users. Many have four, and none have more than six. They married about 5 years later, the wife had a job (and so probably used that most ubiquitous form of spacing births, AKA “too tired for sex”), and they had smaller families. Infertility in the general population is also on the rise, so that could be a factor.

Really, give up on the judging. Encourage the parents who have many children, not just while they’re small but as the family goes through adolescence, high school and how-do-we-pay-for-college, and help them when you can. That is the most positive thing to do, I think.

 

[HouseArrest]

I grew up when there were families of eight and even ten or twelve. I know many NFP users. Many have four, and none have more than six. They married about 5 years later, the wife had a job (and so probably used that most ubiquitous form of spacing births, AKA “too tired for sex”), and they had smaller families. Infertility in the general population is also on the rise, so that could be a factor.

Really, give up on the judging. Encourage the parents who have many children, not just while they’re small but as the family goes through adolescence, high school and how-do-we-pay-for-college, and help them when you can. That is the most positive thing to do, I think.

I don’t think mcrow is judging.

 

[StJudePray4Me]

Ok, first things first.

I keep seeing people here saying “how can you know?” and bringing up people who are infertile or have trouble conceiving. Of course I have great sympathy for those with this situation. However, they do make up a very small minority of the population. This is why people look around churches and see very few large families and put two and two together.

If it’s not ABC the what it is? Why do we see fewer large families?

NFP??? I doubt it. I’ve never even heard of it until I visited this site.** Heck, my wife never heard of it and she’s a cradle Catholic from a devout family**. I don’t doubt that there Catholics who use NFP and the number may even be rising for all we know but it cannot be being used enough to explain the drops in large families.

Infertility? Again, I doubt it. Unless you have proof that there are higher rates of infertility, this does not explain it either.

I never judge anyone. It’s not like I go to church and see a couple with one kid and think to myself “I be they’re using condoms”. No, that’s not what this is about. This is about the Catholic community as a whole.

It is a problem. A bigger problem than many people here seem to think. Again, I feel terrible for those with fertility problems but I’m not judging people individually, I’m judging our community as a whole. Obviously, I cannot know who is using NFP or ABC or who is infertile so it’s beyond me to judge people.

In addition to infertility problems, I also think many people are marrying a lot later. As I understand it, fertility decreases substantially after age 30 for women. I think this has affected family size for Catholics. My MIL had 4 kids by the time she was 27. I got married at 27. She had 5 kids by the time she was 30, I had my first at 29.

The part about your wife not knowing anything about NFP surprises me. Back in the day, I believe Catholics knew about “the rhythm method” which admittedly was less scientific but of a similar philosophy. Perhaps your wife’s family didn’t discuss sex at all, like many Catholics of my moms generation?

At any rate, it does seem to me that infertility is a growing problem. I personally know many, many people who resorted to fertility treatments. Years ago, I wonder how common the problem was. In my family, it was a known problem. My mom, her sister and her aunt were all unable to have children (I am adopted) and my other aunt (not blood related to the others) had only 2 children and it took her 6-7 years of trying to conceive each one. From talking with my mom, it seems she felt very alone in those days, and adopted children in our neighborhood and school was very unusual.

Another reason I think family size has decreased has to do with what is considered a “good reason” for using NFP. It seems to me that these days, it’s a lot more expensive just to live, and especially to raise children. What was the average salary-to-new-home-price ratio in 1960 versus today? What percentage of salary was spent on health insurance in 1965 versus today? What percentage of people attended college in 1960 vs today, and what are your chances of getting a good job without a degree today vs in 1970? I think people today have more reasons to legitimately restrict family size than perhaps they did 40 years ago. Just my opinion of course, but I think it’s worth mentioning.

 

[PaulinVA]

Interesting thread.

There are many reasons that there are now smaller families than in previous generations.

Infant mortality is down, so most kids make it to adulthood
Woman have to work outside the home
Natural methods of birth spacing are more effective
Children are not valued
Infertility is greater

To assume that the family with one child are apostate heretics on ABC is just about as over the top judgmental as you can get. There are many factors, as people on this thread have related anecdotally.

Deal with things that are fact based. There are a number of Catholic couples using ABC, no matter what their family size. These people state such in polls. This is the issue. Why do these people believe this way?

 

[mcrow]

I grew up when there were families of eight and even ten or twelve. I know many NFP users. Many have four, and none have more than six. They married about 5 years later, the wife had a job (and so probably used that most ubiquitous form of spacing births, AKA “too tired for sex”), and they had smaller families. Infertility in the general population is also on the rise, so that could be a factor.

Really, give up on the judging. Encourage the parents who have many children, not just while they’re small but as the family goes through adolescence, high school and how-do-we-pay-for-college, and help them when you can. That is the most positive thing to do, I think.

I’m sorry that you are so sensative on this subject but I’m in no way judging anyone. You can objectively look at patterns and come to an opinion on something without judging individuals. I would never assume one family or another is using ABC, but I find it hard to believe that the family unit has become so much smaller without the help of ABC.

I’ll state it again, ABC is a problem in the Catholic Community. Some may want to stay blind to that fact if they wish, but it is a problem.

 

[mcrow]

I don’t think mcrow is judging.

You are right, I’m not. As I’ve stated multuple times now, I would never assume any particular family is using ABC or not. I’m just looking at the community as a whole. The numbers just don’t add up.

My wife and I only have one child but my wife is 41 and we were married when she was 37.
So, I know the struggle with fertility. Granted, for us, we’re happy with one child but if we were blessed with more then we’d be even more happy.

I do think some of it has to do with marrying later and having fewer fertile years of marriage, but it can’t explain the near lack of families with more than 3-4 kids. The average age at first marriage in the US is about 26 these days. The fact is that most women under 35 will get pregnant in within a year if they are trying to. So that gives almost 10 years where there is a good chance, for most women, to conceive. There is still no reason that someone not practicing NFP or using ABC to have a large family since pregnancy isn’t uncommon into the early 40’s.

Like I said, I would never accuse anyone of using ABC (nor is it my business, really), I’m just poiting out numbers that don’t seem to add up.

 

[PatriceA]

I’m sorry that you are so sensative on this subject but I’m in no way judging anyone. You can objectively look at patterns and come to an opinion on something without judging individuals. I would never assume one family or another is using ABC, but I find it hard to believe that the family unit has become so much smaller without the help of ABC.

I’ll state it again, ABC is a problem in the Catholic Community. Some may want to stay blind to that fact if they wish, but it is a problem.

But you’ve misunderstood the intent of the whole thread. The OP didn’t start this thread to discuss how many Catholics are actually using ABC. It was started to vent or rant at others that assume one is using ABC due to their small family size or not even having children. Its not a debate about people using ABC, I wish people would get that. Its about people making rash judgements about other people without knowing all the facts. Even if the one person sitting beside you in the pew on Sunday is in the small percentage of couples (as people seem so quick to point out) that suffer from infertility, the minute you assume or even say some kind of comment that implies that they use ABC, you may have insulted one of your fellow parishoners. Unless you know personally that the couple is using ABC, don’t assume ANYTHING and be charitable in your assumptions about your fellow Catholics.

 

[PaulinVA]

The average age at first marriage in the US is about 26 these days. The fact is that most women under 35 will get pregnant in within a year if they are trying to. So that gives almost 10 years where there is a good chance, for most women, to conceive. There is still no reason that someone not practicing NFP or using ABC to have a large family since pregnancy isn’t uncommon into the early 40’s.
.

Okay, I’ll pull the pin the this grenade and lob it into the discussion.

Why in the world do you think that “large families” of five or more children are the ideal?

 

[KostyaJMJ]

But you’ve misunderstood the intent of the whole thread. The OP didn’t start this thread to discuss how many Catholics are actually using ABC. It was started to vent or rant at others that assume one is using ABC due to their small family size or not even having children. Its not a debate about people using ABC, I wish people would get that. Its about people making rash judgements about other people without knowing all the facts. Even if the one person sitting beside you in the pew on Sunday is in the small percentage of couples (as people seem so quick to point out) that suffer from infertility, the minute you assume or even say some kind of comment that implies that they use ABC, you may have insulted one of your fellow parishoners. Unless you know personally that the couple is using ABC, don’t assume ANYTHING and be charitable in your assumptions about your fellow Catholics.

Ok say that you’re in Paris and need directions. Paris is a huge city full of immigrants and tourists and their is no way of knowing if any one person you stop speaks French. But you know that the majority of people do and so you ask for directions in French.

I believe that is what people are doing with their judgments; they assume that the person in front of them doesn’t speak the language of the Church. If you’re in the small minority that does try to understand and don’t take offense. I don’t take offense when strangers at the grocery store jokingly ask me when I’m getting snipped.

Again that is not to judge anyone or try to tell them their state before God.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Okay, I’ll pull the pin the this grenade and lob it into the discussion.

Why in the world do you think that “large families” of five or more children are the ideal?

Ok, I’ll lob it right back at you. It isn’t that 4-5 children are ideal. It is simply what you end up with on average if you use NFP. And if you start younger, like 20-22, you can probably expect a baker’s dozen.

 

[lizaanne]

The quality of someone’s parenting or the state of their soul should not be presumed based on their number of children.

I think this quote from Rachel sums it up very nicely.

As someone who is relatively newly married (five years this year), and in my mid 40’s with no children, I’m sure there are those who question whether or not we use ABC. Truth is I’ve never been able to conceive. But I don’t wear it emblazoned on a t-shirt so how would anyone know? Better to just mind your own beeswax and concentrate on how you live YOUR life, and not how someone else is living theirs. Unless someone is ready to face to face confront someone on the topic to keep them from going to hell, then just let it go. It’s none of your concern.

~Liza

 

[PaulinVA]

Ok, I’ll lob it right back at you. It isn’t that 4-5 children are ideal. It is simply what you end up with on average if you use NFP. And if you start younger, like 20-22, you can probably expect a baker’s dozen.

Why? Where is it written? The undercurrent of this thread is that if you don’t have over four children you are not Catholic enough. Where do people get this idea, and why do they impose it on others?

 

[PatriceA]

Ok say that you’re in Paris and need directions. Paris is a huge city full of immigrants and tourists and their is no way of knowing if any one person you stop speaks French. But you know that the majority of people do and so you ask for directions in French.

I believe that is what people are doing with their judgments; they assume that the person in front of them doesn’t speak the language of the Church. If you’re in the small minority that does try to understand and don’t take offense. I don’t take offense when strangers at the grocery store jokingly ask me when I’m getting snipped.

Again that is not to judge anyone or try to tell them their state before God.

Then you have never been on the receiving end of a snide comment about your family size and how you MUST be using ABC. The small minority you are talking about is standing up in this thread and saying we’ve had it, do not assume you know us, and do not tell us to take offense or quit being so sensitive. We are saying people need to be more charitable until they know first hand if a couple is using ABC.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Why? Where is it written? The undercurrent of this thread is that if you don’t have over four children you are not Catholic enough. Where do people get this idea, and why do they impose it on others?

I’m not sure where it comes from. I know there is a traditionalist community near by with a 6 child minimum for attending. I assume that it is something like a secret handshake for them but I’ve never asked. We used to go there but my wife wanted to stop because she said she could feel their eyes burning holes through the back of her head.

 

[ThereseOfRoses]

I’m not sure where it comes from. I know there is a traditionalist community near by with a 6 child minimum for attending. I assume that it is something like a secret handshake for them but I’ve never asked. We used to go there but my wife wanted to stop because she said she could feel their eyes burning holes through the back of her head.

Good for your wife for wanting to change! It’s sounds less like a “traditional community” and more like a cult! Is it one that required the women to dress in long denim skirts or “prairie dresses” like the polygamist Mormon compounds?

That’s not Catholic, that’s separatists!

 

[HouseArrest]

Then you have never been on the receiving end of a snide comment about your family size and how you MUST be using ABC. The small minority you are talking about is standing up in this thread and saying we’ve had it, do not assume you know us, and do not tell us to take offense or quit being so sensitive. We are saying people need to be more charitable until they know first hand if a couple is using ABC.

Patrice, I agree the original intent of the thread was to discuss the assumption that small families must be using ABC and how wrong that is. I, and it seems others, think that one of the reasons people are making those assumptions is because using ABC seems like it is becoming more common amongst the general population, including Catholics. It is part of the discussion. When we don’t care for a trend, we will likely try to find the cause.

Many posters on this thread have also specifically made the distinction between making assumptions about specific families and discussing actions by the population as a whole. We agree with you.