Fans of Taylor Marshall: what's going on?

[choose_to_love]

I’m not totally following your rationale. How is 1P5 defying Canon Law or its local bishop, for example?

 

[commenter]

It doesn’t matter much if you get off the boat to the left side, or to the right side. Either way, you’re off the boat.

It doesn’t matter much if you reject the very basis of the Episcopal authority, like the Left…

or…

If you accept it in theory but are unaffected by the bishop assigned to your city, like the trads.

 

[Ardent_Fire]

I have mixed feelings about Marshall. He has been very resourceful about a number of things but there are also times when I prefer to be somewhat arm’s length about the traditionalists on youtube. I do like some of his guests but I tend to discern things with a careful eye. I don’t even watch the Gordons anymore. There is a constant undertone of hostility and chip on their shoulders that I find difficult to really watch or listen to, but that’s subjective. The undertones of constant hostility and anger as opposed to much joy is a common issue I have that prevents me from being able to fully embrace the traditionalist wing in general.

When it comes to the likes of youtube I often prefer sermons good solid faithful priests and clergy, including my local priest.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

If you accept it in theory but are unaffected by the bishop assigned to your city, like the trads.

Are you saying all “trads” disobey their bishop?

The undertones of constant hostility and anger as opposed to much joy is a common issue I have that prevents me from being able to fully embrace the traditionalist wing in general.

When it comes to the likes of youtube I often prefer sermons good solid faithful priests and clergy, including my local priest.

I will agee that the traditionalists are upset more often but I think that can be due to what is seen happening in our Church and in our culture, and it should upset us. It seems to me the left gets upset also and can get very angry when their territory is stepped on. You just don’t hear it as much because our society is leaning in their direction.

 

[Ardent_Fire]

I will agee that the traditionalists are upset more often but I think that can be due to what is seen happening in our Church and in our culture, and it should upset us.

To the point where we basically forget what the word “gospel” even means? I’m just going to leave that there.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Putting yourself at risk is one thing, but catching a disease where you could be unknowingly spreading it for over a week is not charitable or a devout, pious action to be praised. We’re called to be devout, charitable, and prudent.

I have said this several times in this thread, how do we know that they broke social distancing rules? How do we know they weren’t prudent and did just what their state required for social distancing?

Also, what I am bothered by here is that we are upset because someone went to Mass, we don’t know what social distancing took place or what prudence they had, if they broke any laws or not and I just came from my small town grocery store where none of the workers nor many customers were social distancing. People were right in each others faces, not practicing any type of prudence and to top it off, I asked a worker a question and got snipped at for wearing a mask while talking to her. She then moved in even closer to my face and got upset when I backed away.

Putting aside whether we agree with what Mr. Marshall and his guests say or not, its just starting to seem to me we have our priorities all wrong in this pandemic and it looks like a pretty sad state.

To the point where we basically forget what the word “gospel” even means? I’m just going to leave that there.

Yep, it works both ways and on both sides many a time.

 

[commenter]

Are you saying all “trads” disobey their bishop?

They tend to disregard the authority of their local bishop. If their local bishop happens to coincide with their own position, that’s fine, but they are not affected by their local bishop in choosing their position.

The traditional position, as expressed in Pascendi 50 - 52, Vatican 2 Document on Social Communication, and Canon Law, is for media ministries to have the approval and relationship with their local diocese, even if they have fans in many cities.

Obviously “Call to Action” or “Catholics for Choice” - the Left - don’t follow any of that. The Left isn’t traditional.

But the organizations on the Right also don’t follow that. The “Trads” aren’t traditional either.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

but that isn’t what I asked. Are you saying all traditionalists or “trads” as you call them, disobey their bishop?

I don’t have a problem when it is said that “so and so” is disobeying their bishop by doing such and such if it is truly a known fact, whether on the right or left, but when an assumption is made or everyone gets lumped in like a herd, I find that bothersome.

 

[commenter]

but that isn’t what I asked. Are you saying all traditionalists or “trads” as you call them, disobey their bishop?

Since I don’t know all of them, or all their bishops, I can’t fairly say that.

Better to say there is a trend here, on Left and more recently on Right…my comments refer to that trend. I’m not condoning National Catholic Reporter, etc either.

 

[twf]

I will agee that the traditionalists are upset more often but I think that can be due to what is seen happening in our Church and in our culture,

And this, right here, is, I think, part of the issue. I often see “traditionalists” conflate legitimate traditional Catholic issues with American right wing / conservative issues. This is, obviously, only true of the American traditionalist community. It is the added political dimension that adds to the strive / drama. If we’re discussing abortion…of course that’s a very traditional Catholic moral issue apart from any local politics. If we’re discussing gun rights, that’s NOT…but the way some traditionalists / conservatives talk on this forum and elsewhere, it sure sounds like it is. (Complaints about “liberal” bishops not allowing the faithful to attend Mass with a loaded gun etc…traditionalists in my part of the world certainly wouldn’t even think about such issues…its an American issue, not a Catholic issue).

 

[SeekSalvation]

The only question I want Taylor Marshall to answer, and he refuses to, is where in the bible does it say Jesus broke bread and placed it on the tongues of his disciples? Also, Marshall rants about how the TLM mass is the true and correct mass, but refuses to answer my question; “what was the true traditional mass before 1570 the date the Tridentine Mass came about”? I do like a lot of Taylor Marshall’s NTSI studies, but those videos and study courses are 6 to 9 years old and Taylor Marshall appears to not . . . practice all that he has preached in the past. . . . I too watch Marshall’s video’s with a very wide and open eye.

 

[commenter]

In the late 1960s and 1970s I watched many good priests, laity and especially sisters initially interested in “renewal” gradually shift positions. They began with a mindset of genuine pastoral concern and love for the Church, sliding over inch by inch to hostility for the hierarchy, caught up in momentum of their own agendas, to new positions they would have rejected when they started out.

I see the same thing happening, here and there, to greater or lesser degree, in parts of the Right.

 

[commenter]

True, as far as Theology goes. But as far as people go, some justify disregarding the authority of the current bishops to one way, others to another way. The heterodoxy of the Left us obvious. The heterodoxy of the Right not so obvious.

But you are correct. The man who says “I only obey my current pope or Bishop when he speaks the truth” essentially makes himself pope and bishop.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

The only question I want Taylor Marshall to answer, and he refuses to

Have you asked him personally?

where in the bible does it say Jesus broke bread and placed it on the tongues of his disciples?

Where does it say He didn’t or where does it say He placed it in their hands?

Marshall rants about how the TLM mass is the true and correct mass, but refuses to answer my question;

I believe he says both Masses are valid and “correct”, not sure if that is the wording but that they are like equal diamonds, yet placed in different settings.

“what was the true traditional mass before 1570 the date the Tridentine Mass came about”?

These types of questions are why we follow Tradition also and not Scripture alone. These are questions that those who do not want to throw out Tradition and Church teaching want answered also but the question is a little different. Why are we not following Tradition also.

 

[twf]

Yes, but some of the issues you raised in your previous post go beyond theology and orthodoxy vs heterodoxy… debating immigration laws IS a matter of Left vs Right… and it is misleading at best to suggest there is one single “orthodox” answer that happens to align with right wing political talking points. Not saying you’re saying that’s the case… but sometimes it sure seems like some people do just that… conflate traditional theology and right wing politics.

 

[Maximian]

Yet last week Lifesite News revealed that Marshall had bankrolled the operation.

That’s not a true picture of what happened. The way you put insinuates a deception which wasn’t there.

Lifesite did not reveal any such thing; they reported that it was revealed by the two men (Taylor Marshall and Baron Alexander Tschugguel) themselves in the course of the interview itself.

Prominent US Catholic helped plan, fund purging of Pachamama idol from church in Rome - LifeSite

 

[commenter]

There’s a range here. At one end you have specific intended defining of doctrine on faith and Morals. At the other end you have careless back of the plane interviews.

It’s the middle I’m interested in. Pascendi, for instance, does not define doctrine. But it gives important authoritative direction on many areas.
I’m looking specifically at sections 50 to 53.

Many media agencies, including Marshall, specifically emphasize it’s importance, but ignore these sections, which were reinforced by Vatican 2 and the Code of Canon Law.

I agree with you Canon Law or Pascendi don’t carry the same weight as the dogma of Assumption, but surely more than off the cuff remarks.

The secular media in the West constantly find ways to divide and conquer, a hermenuetic of suspicion
towards the bishops. You might think these so called conservative websites aren’t “secular media” but they flow in the same stream, benefit from the same hermenuetic.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I often see “traditionalists” conflate legitimate traditional Catholic issues with American right wing / conservative issues. This is, obviously, only true of the American traditionalist community.

I would have to respectfully disagree. It could just be that you hear the American issues more often but I suspect if you were in other countries (I don’t know if you are) you may hear similar concerns.

Alot of societies issues relate back to Catholics no longer promoting the Kingship of Christ and the Catholic faith. As the Church goes, goes society.

 

[twf]

I would have to respectfully disagree. It could just be that you hear the American issues more often but I suspect if you were in other countries (I don’t know if you are) you may hear similar concerns.

Alot of societies issues relate back to Catholics no longer promoting the Kingship of Christ and the Catholic faith. As the Church goes, goes society.

On some issues I imagine you’re correct…but you would have to look at it case by case. Here at CAF, or on Fr Z’s blog, “traditionalists” seem very concerned with the “right” to attend Mass with a loaded gun…I would be VERY surprised if “traditionalists” here in Canada would ever even consider such an issue. (I’m not trying to get into a discussion on guns…that’s just one example of an issue that I absolutely reject has anything to do with traditional Catholicism and everything to do with American politics).

 

[SeekSalvation]

SeekSalvation:

The only question I want Taylor Marshall to answer, and he refuses to

Have you asked him personally?

where in the bible does it say Jesus broke bread and placed it on the tongues of his disciples?

Where does it say He didn’t or where does it say He placed it in their hands?

Marshall rants about how the TLM mass is the true and correct mass, but refuses to answer my question;

I believe he says both Masses are valid and “correct”, not sure if that is the wording but that they are like equal diamonds, yet placed in different settings.

“what was the true traditional mass before 1570 the date the Tridentine Mass came about”?

These types of questions are why we follow Tradition also and not Scripture alone. These are questions that those who do not want to throw out Tradition and Church teaching want answered also but the question is a little different. Why are we not following Tradition also.

1. Yes
2. You made my point exactly. It doesn’t! What’s your point? Taylor claims taking the Eucharist in the hand is evil. Perhaps that wasn’t clear in my post. But those who’ve spent anytime watching his YouTubes are well aware he attacks those who don’t take the Eucharist on the tongue.
3. Dr Taylor Marshall is on record preaching the NO mass doesn’t show devotion to our Lord and Savior. Go watch his past 30 videos, he claims it all the time.
4. You are walking around my question just like Taylor Marshall does. The TLM Mass wasn’t established till 1570, after the council of Trent. Some say this mass may go back as far back as 1260 in one order of the Church, which I can believe, but still doesn’t reflect my point: The Mass has changed in the Church for the past 2000 years. There was a time Catholics only received the Eucharist once a year, then it went to 6 times a year, and the changes went on and on and on. Taylor Marshall whips his followers up in a fury when he attacks the NO Mass which has now been around over a half century. The point I’m making is Marshall divides the Christ Body, the Church, with many issues he’s in disagreement with. That’s simply fact.

Last, “Why are we not following Tradition also?” Who’s tradition? Yours or those who only know NO Mass as tradition? Over 90% of the Masses held in US Churches today are NO Mass. There are Priest who have never been to a TLM Mass. Are they not devote to our Lord because of that? Anyone who attends a NO Mass and receives in the hand are not as devoted to Christ as those who attend a TLM Mass? To believe, push that, promote that, means you’re dividing Christ Church