Fans of Taylor Marshall: what's going on?

[Emeraldlady]

MagdalenaRita:

I would have to respectfully disagree. It could just be that you hear the American issues more often but I suspect if you were in other countries (I don’t know if you are) you may hear similar concerns.

Alot of societies issues relate back to Catholics no longer promoting the Kingship of Christ and the Catholic faith. As the Church goes, goes society.

On some issues I imagine you’re correct…but you would have to look at it case by case. Here at CAF, or on Fr Z’s blog, “traditionalists” seem very concerned with the “right” to attend Mass with a loaded gun…I would be VERY surprised if “traditionalists” here in Canada would ever even consider such an issue. (I’m not trying to get into a discussion on guns…that’s just one example of an issue that I absolutely reject has anything to do with traditional Catholicism and everything to do with American politics).

The strangest phenomenon of the US Catholic right is corporate Catholicism. People making a fortune solely from being Catholic. We don’t have any such thing in Australia. There are prominent Catholic speakers and teachers, but they are sponsored by Diocese or parishes and have other jobs. The US corporate Catholics remind me of the traders in the Temple and not at all Christian in motivation.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

that’s just one example of an issue that I absolutely reject has anything to do with traditional Catholicism and everything to do with American politics).

I agree, though I would suspect that each country has their own issues that might slip into religious discussions.

The strangest phenomenon of the US Catholic right is corporate Catholicism

I suspect, I guess, you are refering to youtubers or podcasts, blogs or similar that charge for the news or make money from what they do.

The US corporate Catholics remind me of the traders in the Temple and not at all Christian in motivation

So, if I am correct in what you are referring to, there are those on the right and on the left that do this. I personally do not like it either. I don’t want to pay for the news or someone’s opinion but then I guess we used to do that with newspapers and magazines in the past. We even do this when purchasing someone’s book. I do know I would not want to take a chance on judging someone’s motivation, whether it is Christian or not. We can judge an action, whether it is right or wrong but not being God we can not judge a heart or a motivation.

 

[catholic03]

I think we’d be hard pressed to find such a group of people outside the US.

As you say, in countries like Australia (and New Zealand in my experience), speakers are usually priests or laypeople who are involved with the (Arch)diocese in an official capacity.

 

[twf]

This is more of an American issue than a specifically American Catholic issue. I was raised Evangelical, and back in those days, I was a die hard creationist (of the 6 days / 6000 years variety). One of the prominent speakers / apologists in the Evangelical Creationist movement was actually an Australian who worked in America where he was paid a generous 6 figure salary for challenging established science…

 

[catholic03]

This is more of an American issue than a specifically American Catholic issue. I was raised Evangelical, and back in those days, I was a die hard creationist (of the 6 days / 6000 years variety). One of the prominent speakers / apologists in the Evangelical Creationist movement was actually an Australian who worked in America where he was paid a generous 6 figure salary for challenging established science…

I find that those Prosperity Gospel types exist around the world.

Here in New Zealand they are especially controversial. They own multi campus churches and have a wide youth following.

 

[Emeraldlady]

This is more of an American issue than a specifically American Catholic issue. I was raised Evangelical, and back in those days, I was a die hard creationist (of the 6 days / 6000 years variety). One of the prominent speakers / apologists in the Evangelical Creationist movement was actually an Australian who worked in America where he was paid a generous 6 figure salary for challenging established science…

Oh yes I remember hearing about that Creationist guy. There is also the Hillsong guy who is Australian based and one of the famous ex Scientology speakers Mike Rinders is Australian. It isn’t a Catholic thing though.

 

[catholic03]

There is also the Hillsong guy who is Australian based and one of the famous ex Scientology

There is a church in my city (and it’s expanding around New Zealand) that is closely related to (and I believe unofficially affiliated with) Hillsong.

My friend goes to this church, and he always travels to Australia (Sydney, I think), with his family to attend the Hillsong conference.

This New Zealand version of ‘Hillsong’ is the same theologically as Hillsong in Australia.

The pastors preach the ‘health and wealth’ Gospel. It is, like Hillsong, very youth orientated. As a young person it makes me confused - ‘what does this church have that the Catholic Church doesn’t?’, is an question I often think about.

 

[Emeraldlady]

So, if I am correct in what you are referring to, there are those on the right and on the left that do this. I personally do not like it either. I don’t want to pay for the news or someone’s opinion but then I guess we used to do that with newspapers and magazines in the past. We even do this when purchasing someone’s book. I do know I would not want to take a chance on judging someone’s motivation, whether it is Christian or not. We can judge an action, whether it is right or wrong but not being God we can not judge a heart or a motivation.

Financial abundance is very important to the Catholic elite. It’s there to be seen in organisations like Napa Institute, Lepanto, Ave Maria and others. Money is a top priority. To me that makes their evangelising cred tainted. Pope Francis is doing his best to rid the Vatican of the same evil.

 

[Emeraldlady]

The pastors preach the ‘health and wealth’ Gospel. It is, like Hillsong, very youth orientated. As a young person it makes me confused - ‘what does this church have that the Catholic Church doesn’t?’, is an question I often think about.

I would just say be attentive to the Gospel and its teachings regarding money and storing up treasures in this life. Love of money makes people skip over basic Scripture tenets. Remember how the devil tried to temp Jesus in the desert with the promise of material abundance.

 

[catholic03]

Yes, and that’s why these Prosperity Teachers don’t make any sense. They use their own brand of Protestantism to make huge sums of money.

I pray for them, that they may hear the cry of the poor.

 

[Crusader13]

Financial abundance is very important to the Catholic elite. It’s there to be seen in organisations like Napa Institute, Lepanto, Ave Maria and others. Money is a top priority. To me that makes their evangelising cred tainted.

Wait… how do you know money and financial gain is their top priority?

I’m not going to suggest that a Catholic apologist has no right to make money by being a full time, speaker, blogger or author.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

Financial abundance is very important to the Catholic elite. It’s there to be seen in organisations like Napa Institute, Lepanto, Ave Maria and others. Money is a top priority. To me that makes their evangelising cred tainted.

Wait… how do you know money and financial gain is their top priority?

I’m not going to suggest that a Catholic apologist has no right to make money by being a full time, speaker, blogger or author.

You mean that’s part of the traditional Church? I thought traditionalists were very true to the authentic traditions of the Apostles and the missionary spirit. Tradition was definitely not about money making evangelism.

 

[Crusader13]

You mean that’s part of the traditional Church? I thought traditionalists were very true to the authentic traditions of the Apostles and the missionary spirit. Tradition was definitely not about money making evangelism.

I’m not sure what you’re even talking about. They are not part of the clergy. So if they want to become full time apologists or authors, how is collecting revenue from their apologetic work unbiblical?

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

You mean that’s part of the traditional Church? I thought traditionalists were very true to the authentic traditions of the Apostles and the missionary spirit. Tradition was definitely not about money making evangelism.

I’m not sure what you’re even talking about. They are not part of the clergy. So if they want to become full time apologists or authors, how is collecting revenue from their apologetic work unbiblical?

Give me an example from Tradition of wealth generation from evangelising?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

It doesn’t! What’s your point?

The point is Catholics are not sola scriptura, we also include Tradition and the Magisterium. Receiving in the hand does have issues and I agree with him but having said that I don’t want to turn this into another CITH vs COTT debate.

But those who’ve spent anytime watching his YouTubes are well aware he attacks those who don’t take the Eucharist on the tongue.

If he was the only person saying this I would agree it is a problem but even many priests are coming to realize the problems with CITH and many NO priests are starting to voice this concern. I don’t believe he is attacking the persons but the practice.

Dr Taylor Marshall is on record preaching the NO mass doesn’t show devotion to our Lord and Savior. Go watch his past 30 videos, he claims it all the time.

I have watched his videos and I agree that there can be times the NO Mass can lack devotion and focus to much on a meal ratherr than a sacrifice and I agree. What I have heard in the videos, is what I said already, that the Mass is like a diamond and the difference is the setting.

You are walking around my question just like Taylor Marshall does. The TLM Mass wasn’t established till 1570, after the council of Trent

I am not walking around anything. Pius V did not promulgate a new Mass or establish a new Mass following Trent, but rather consolidated and codified the Roman Rite that was already in existence.

Father Adrian Fortescue in *The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy (1912) states: our Mass goes back, without essential change, to the age when it first developed out of the oldest liturgy of all. It is still redolent of that liturgy, of the days when Caesar ruled the world and thought he could stamp out the faith of Christ, when our fathers met together before dawn and sang a hymn to Christ as to a God

Who’s tradition? Yours or those who only know NO Mass as tradition? Over 90% of the Masses held in US Churches today are NO Mass. There are Priest who have never been to a TLM Mass.

The Catholic Church Tradition. I find this a very disturbing thought, that Catholics do not know the Church’s history and Tradition. Maybe it is time we work on that.

Are they not devote to our Lord because of that? Anyone who attends a NO Mass and receives in the hand are not as devoted to Christ as those who attend a TLM Mass?

No one is saying that at all. Of course they are devoted to Christ but perhaps it is a lack of knowledge and catechesis of Tradition and Scripture is what has led to so many people not believing in the True Presence.

 

[SeekSalvation]

Emeraldlady:

Financial abundance is very important to the Catholic elite. It’s there to be seen in organisations like Napa Institute, Lepanto, Ave Maria and others. Money is a top priority. To me that makes their evangelising cred tainted.

Wait… how do you know money and financial gain is their top priority?

I’m not going to suggest that a Catholic apologist has no right to make money by being a full time, speaker, blogger or author.

You make a valid point. In today’s world ‘traditionalist’ has a political ideological cogitation to it. Just because someone is making a living teaching, evangelizing, or as an apologist of the faith doesn’t mean they’re doing it out of the love for money. As an example is I believe Dr Marshall truly loves the Church with all his heart. I believe most of what he’s teaching and evangelizing is good solid Catholic teaching. That is evident in his videos. I admire his devotion and commitment to faith and Church when it comes to current events and history. My only issue is Taylor sometimes uses his very persuasive and influential abilities to cause some strife/division about certain topics in the Church.

 

[gam197]

On some issues I imagine you’re correct…but you would have to look at it case by case. Here at CAF, or on Fr Z’s blog, “traditionalists” seem very concerned with the “right” to attend Mass with a loaded gun…I would be VERY surprised if “traditionalists” here in Canada would ever even consider such an issue. (I’m not trying to get into a discussion on guns…that’s just one example of an issue that I absolutely reject has anything to do with traditional Catholicism and everything to do with American politics).

Have never listened to Taylor Marshall but his name come up quite a bit on these forums.

I believe the reason the US takes on many issues and there are various dialogue on these issues is because to get a person elected as President to the highest office, many groups of people are needed. You do not have enough votes with one issue such as abortion.

So even though guns are not something I have an interest in, I have to look at why do they want gun laws changed?

At any rate , I will pray for Taylor Marshall. There was a thread awhile ago which talked of the catholic churches who were offering the Latin mass and using some of the Sedevacantist’s priests so something still goes on in the church to try bring them back into the fold.

The churches are still open at least in my area where people can go in and pray.

 

[Crusader13]

Give me an example from Tradition of wealth generation from evangelising?

Ok, you seem to be blurring the lines between evangelization, which the Church has done since its foundation and the accumulation of wealth as the goal for sharing the gospel.

Catholics here at Catholic Answers receive a pretty decent salary. So you’re insinuating that everyone from Jimmy Akin to Tim Staples lose any credibility in your eyes because they are getting paid to defend Catholicism.

Or is it just the traditionalists that you dislike who are unbiblical in their financial gain?

 

[Crusader13]

That very well could be true. I’ve heard references to that, but I don’t know the inns and outs of their association with the archdiocese. Nevertheless, their employees still get paid.

 

[Jbrady]

Or is it just the traditionalists that you dislike who are unbiblical in their financial gain?

I’m as in with the progressive/liberal set as you can get, and am scratching my head trying to think of any progressive/liberal apologist that breaks even at the end of the month. The guys at NCR, Commonweal and America are either clergy, volunteers, or at best barely paid. Certainly nobody is raking it in, or drawing in big bucks from super rich donors like Tim Busch or Tom Monaghan.

As far as NCR, Commonweal and America, they seem to be better read by “watchdogs” on the right than by anyone on the left.

The commercialization of evangelization is certainly a phenomenon that is limited to the far right.