Father James Altman: You cannot be Catholic & a Democrat. Period

[MagdalenaRita]

Laws protect people who have money to defend the law

The laws are for everyone. Whatever law is in your community are for you whether you are wealthy or not. Hiring a lawyer in situations may cost, yes.

The wealthy and the lobby groups.

yes, this is true but again, we have the choice or right to speech and can speak out.

And get branded as eco terrorist or just plain boring terrorist.

There are lots of ways to protest or speak up and not get branded a terrorist.

Some people can afford that, other’s lives in the city.

Lived in the city, had a garden.

From the people who stole it.

There are other companies. Buy a water filter and use your own tap water.

Which is a whole other issue I have with Trump right there. Man won’t listen to the UN.

So, I agree with President Trump here. I just mentioned what was happening. I do not like the Goals 2030. Much of their agenda is abortion, population control and taking away our freedom of choices.

So, the whole point of this is that there are choices. We are given choices every day. We choose. We can make arguments of what is right and wrong about the choices we can make but the point is we as born people can choose. Unborn babies can not. They have no voice but ours.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Though he never used the words “under any circumstances” he makes it sound like an absolute, as though it can’t be done under any circumstances.

I did not get that from the video. I think most everyone, least ways, most Catholics, know what is at stake in this election.

He might think the present political situation disallows a vote for a Democratic candidate, and you might agree with him, but that does not make it the official teaching of the Church.

The Church does not take a stand on political parties but it does stand very firmly on whether one person can take another person’s life or not and whether or not we can support the taking of a life.

 

[Anrakyr]

There are lots of ways to protest or speak up and not get branded a terrorist.

No there isn’t.

Lived in the city, had a garden.

Point was not everyone can. Not that you couldn’t.

So, the whole point of this is that there are choices.

The illusion of choice. I can choose Coke or Pepsi or I can choose to drink water. None of these determine how I get them or if they are available.

If I love Coke for instance and I have to drive 30 minutes to get it vs walking around a corner and settling for Pepsi? That is a choice but not a good one. The ideal choice is one I can make of my own without incurring a cost unfairly.

Now you could counter with; “if you choose to become a CEO or a mayor or doctor those colleagues have sacrifices.”

Sacrificing because you want something is different than being forced to sacrifice because you don’t have a choice.

I can either stay in a rundown dying coal town and perish by black lung or I can go on to become a doctor somewhere else. That’s not a choice because obviously one should err towards self-preservation. It’s a lifestyle thrust upon you because it’s your only way out.

Had you chose a lesser calling you would be competing with everyone else to get a job in any other city and been just as well off as if you would stayed and worked in the mine.

So choice is not “free” even if it should be.

 

[christofirst]

The Church does not take a stand on political parties

So you and I agree that Fr. Altman, as a member of the clergy and a representative of the Church, was wrong when he said, “You cannot be a Catholic and a Democrat. Period.”

 

[MagdalenaRita]

So choice is not “free” even if it should be

You still have a choice and a voice.

So, you and I agree that Fr. Altman,…was wrong.

No because I believe he was speaking of the evils in todays Democratic party. He was not saying you could never ever vote Democrat or if you voted Democrat in 1955 you sinned.

I believe he would have said the same of any party that promoted the same evils.

 

[fide]

But aren’t you arguing for the exact same thing, only for your viewpoint?

This is the second time I perceive in you a sense of an equivalence of things that raises a warning flag. Is one’s “viewpoint” - agreeing or disagreeing with your “viewpoint” - the way you look at judgments of human actions, as opposed to the objective value of the actions involved? In other words, is one’s personal/subjective opinion of the value of an act, the only matter available for discussion? Are there not, in still other words, objective and absolute values at issue in actions having a moral quality? And are other actions not capable of objective and absolute disvalue - indeed, sinful and morally deadly actions?

Citizens of the city of God, seeking God who is good absolutely, are models who are good - absolutely - to imitate and point to as examples to follow (i.e. the saints). Citizens of the city of man, creators of political correctness, of the moral philosophy “might makes right” and “what is good for me as I determine it, defines good” - these are the source of beliefs to avoid like the plague.

My or your “Viewpoint” is not the most important factor. What is the truth or falsity of it, in GOD’S “viewpoint” - that is the question.

 

[fide]

There is such a thing as fervent, passionate zeal which may appear to be unrighteous “anger” but in fact is far different. When Jesus drove out the merchants and money changers from His Father’s House, the Temple - with a whip of cords - I doubt that He did so in monotones or as a sweet suggestion, if they weren’t too busy or anything, please.

And when Jesus spoke strongly to the “scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!” in Mt 23, I doubt that his hearers received it as a calm and academic, dry and indifferent theological lecture. I think that such fervent, passionate zeal could well be named righteous anger.

 

[Anrakyr]

You still have a choice and a voice.

Respectfully you didn’t address any of my points about the illusion of choice or more specifically how a bad choice isn’t a true choice. You are just repeating your point because the larger context of those choices don’t matter.

 

[christofirst]

You believe what you think Fr. Altman meant, but I know what I heard him say, and it was wrong.

Anyway, at this point I can see that neither of us will convince the other. I’m sure your heart’s in the right place and bless you for that.

 

[Sarcelle]

As a registered Republican, I will not ever conceive of going up to a pro-life Democrat and tell them they aren’t being good Catholics if they are Democrat.

In fact I think they should stay Democrat and work to change the party from within. Imagine if more Democrats became pro-life.

 

[PaulinVA]

This is the second time I perceive in you a sense of an equivalence of things that raises a warning flag. Is one’s “viewpoint” - agreeing or disagreeing with your “viewpoint” - the way you look at judgments of human actions, as opposed to the objective value of the actions involved?

I am not talking about discerning objective Truth in the context of American laws. I believe in objective Truth in the theological sense. I think that abortion is objectively murder.

However, you don’t seem to be getting my argument that in the secular world, there is not agreement that there even is Truth, much less that the Catholic Church holds it. Saying in political debate the Church says X is great, but that might not fit into our Constitutional principles. As an example, the Church is against gay marriage (as am I), but the 14th Amendment guarantees equal protection under the laws, so…

This discussion has gone all over the place, so let me state some things so there isn’t confusion.

I believe that a Catholic can vote for Joe Biden. If you aren’t voting for his pro-abortion stance, but for other important reasons, the Bishops tell us that we can.

Abortion isn’t going to made illegal anytime soon. Even if it’s made illegal, abortions will still happen.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Respectfully you didn’t address any of my points about the illusion of choice or more specifically how a bad choice isn’t a true choice. You are just repeating your point because the larger context of those choices don’t matter.

I am not addressing those because no matter what a person faces in life, and there will be ups an downs and good things and bad things, he is alive!. He was allowed to live! No matter what comes a long he has a choice in how he reacts to his circumstances. Some things will be out of his control but he still has a choice in how he reacts.

A baby killed in the womb of his mother is not given that right to even face the trials or the good things of life. None of us know what the issues would have been for each person who was killed but it is not our right to decide that they can not face those issues in the world by taking away their life.

You believe what you think Fr. Altman meant, but I know what I heard him say, and it was wrong.

"Repent of your support for that party and it’s platform.

You are right, we will have to just agree to disagree because I just listened to the video again and above is what he said. He did not one time say you must never vote democrat under any circumstances.

Here is what I think is a very good review of the video by another Catholic apologist.

I’m sure your heart’s in the right place and bless you for that.

Thank you.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Abortion isn’t going to made illegal anytime soon.

Well, it certainly won’t be made illegal anytime soon if Biden gets into office.

 

[PaulinVA]

Well, it certainly won’t be made illegal anytime soon if Biden gets into office.

Well, the other guy has had 3 1/2 years and nothing happened. Bush 43 had eight years. Bush 41 had four years. Reagan had eight years. Ford had four years. Nothing happened.

But, just by voting for Trump abortion will magically be made illegal? No. If the reason you are voting for Trump is to outlaw abortion, I would opine that your vote is misplaced.

 

[Sarcelle]

Will it be made illegal after Trump is re-elected? I doubt it.

There have been several Republican presidents and abortion is still legal.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Bush 43 had eight years

He did sign the partial birth abortion ban act but the democrats of course fought it.

But, just by voting for Trump abortion will magically be made illegal?

Overturning Roe is going to depend on the courts. It takes a pro life president to put pro life judges on the court.

No. If the reason you are voting for Trump is to outlaw abortion, I would opine that your vote is misplaced.

I could not in any way disagree with you more. I actually think your comment is a very sad comment. First because of the many lives at stake under the issue of abortion and to think that someone making a vote that would somehow have the possibility to stop abortion is misplaced and the second reason because of all the other anti Catholic issues in democrat party.

Donald Trump’s Pro-Life Achievements (2016-2020)

 

[PaulinVA]

Overturning Roe is going to depend on the courts. It takes a pro life president to put pro life judges on the court.

There is no such thing as pro-life Justices. Sorry. No one is a reliable vote. And being pro-life or Catholic should have no bearing on how a Justice decides legal cases.

I could not in any way disagree with you more. I actually think your comment is a very sad comment.

It is totally against my conscience to vote for someone who admits assaulting women, paid to keep affairs quiet, lies constantly, undermines the rule of law and demands loyalty to himself and not the Constitution. The ends don’t justify the means.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

There is no such thing as pro-life Justices. Sorry. No one is a reliable vote. And being pro-life or Catholic should have no bearing on how a Justice decides legal cases.

Disagree. A conservative judge can be pro life. Is it true he decides a case based on law, yes.

It is totally against my conscience to vote for someone who admits assaulting women, paid to keep affairs quiet, lies constantly, undermines the rule of law and demands loyalty to himself and not the Constitution. The ends don’t justify the means.

Mine too. Unless the other guy has done similar and then tops it off by allowing laws that give people the right to kill other people and other anti Catholic agendas . Makes those other things look pretty small in comparison.

Also, our consciences are to be formed by the Catholic church and the USCCB has already said that abortion is their top priority.

 

[christofirst]

So having determined that there is more than one way to effectively reduce the number of abortions, which the USCCB has called the preeminent issue, and further acknowledging that we Catholics are instructed by the USCCB that we need not be single issue voters, it becomes clear that we can in good conscience vote for a Democratic candidate.

Then the issue of a candidate’s character which you bring up becomes a very important consideration indeed. When it comes to the character and qualifications of our current two leading presidential candidates, the choice for me could not be more clear.

 

[christofirst]

I’ve been waiting for you to show up