Father James Altman: You cannot be Catholic & a Democrat. Period

[MagdalenaRita]

I’m saying that’s awfully heavy. There’s probably a better way to persuade people

Well, that is the Gospel. God made us, we sinned, He loves us and sent His Son to die for us, we must have faith and obey Christ and His Church and turn from sin so we could spend eternity with Him or we could not obey and spend eternity in hell.

I’ve lost track on whether you’re specifiacllky talking about Catholics or others.

both

For Catholics, yes, a less hellfire approach with the Gospel might be appropriate.

I disagree there. There hasn’t been enough talk about heaven and hell but it is a reality. The four last things for everyone: death, judgement, heaven and hell, though there are ways to talk about it and not offend people, yes. We don’t have to keep it quiet though.

Well, if you’re trying to persuade someone to believe what you’re telling them, offending them is a losing strategy. It is possible to tell the truth without being offensive.

Hmm, that would mean when Jesus verbally offended the Pharisees He was using a losing strategy.

Only if they follow Church teaching.

Perhaps this priest says it a little less offensive, true none the less.

"Can a True Catholic Vote Democrat"

Edit to add: The days of “pay, pray, and obey” are gone.

There is some truth to that. It is how it is today but it also means more Catholics are choosing not to build the Church, pray and obey the Church, which is led by the Holy Spirit, and which means more souls are eternally lost.

The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. Our Lady of Akita 1973

Put on ashes and pray for a repentant rosary every day. Our Lady of Akita October 6, 2019 (same day as the Covid virus accident happened in China)

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[fide]

I’m saying you can’t legislate morality. Yes, there is a general, moral consensus that murder should be illegal. There is not that same consensus that abortion should be illegal.

Would you be okay if elements other religions’ moral code were codified into American law?

What is law based on, if not morality? God gave to humanity a natural moral law integrated with our conscience - from that, in the different cultures and societies and nations, came law. These different cultures developed in different ways in the context of original sin, which resulted in a darkening of minds and hearts and a weakening of wills - and thus we see different expressions of religious morality and of social laws across cultures.

The point is, however, God intervened in a confused humanity with a revealed divine law given to the Jews, which became fully expressed and completed in the Gospel. Sadly, in spite of holy grace, men - even Christians, even Catholics - continue to desire and cling to sin. Thus even the Gospel gets distorted as is apparent in the differing “moralities” among those who profess Christ.

My concluding point is this: we have been given God’s Law in Christ, and to that Law we OWE obedience above all civil laws. Herein is our freedom in Christ: in His Truth - which is in His Law - therein we find the will of our Creator, and our vocation. Certainly NOT do we find God in human “consensus”!

"Other religions’ moral codes are credible and worthy of obedience to the extent that they are consistent with the Gospel, and no further than that. To see equivalencies among religions is not true. There is one God; He does not lie; He does not contradict Himself.

 

[PaulinVA]

"Other religions’ moral codes are credible and worthy of obedience to the extent that they are consistent with the Gospel, and no further than that. To see a equivalencies among religions is not true. There is one God; He does not lie; He does not contradict Himself.

In the public sphere, all moralities are equal, all religious-based moral codes are given equal weight.

Now, I happen to think that the Christian worldview is superior and Christian morality should be followed, but, in the public sphere, it is just one competing worldview. If you want people to follow that worldview, you have to convince them.

 

[fide]

Edit to add: The days of “pay, pray, and obey” are gone.

Would that that were true! Read and weep.

 

[MikeInVA]

In the public sphere , all moralities are equal, all religious-based moral codes are given equal weight.

Objectively this is not true, and practically speaking it is unworkable.

 

[PaulinVA]

I disagree there. There hasn’t been enough talk about heaven and hell but it is a reality. The four last things for everyone: death, judgement, heaven and hell, though there are ways to talk about it and not offend people, yes. We don’t have to keep it quiet though.

Yes, maybe the offensive approach yields fruit in 1% of the cases. But, you’d lose the other 99%.

Hmm, that would mean when Jesus verbally offended the Pharisees He was using a losing strategy.

He. was. God. He healed people and sent the on their way.

It is possible to persuade people without offending them.

Perhaps this priest says it a little less offensive, true none the less.

No, It’s offensive and one dimensional. Why do you think the Bishops published their voting guide? Because it’s up to individuals to make the decision based on their own well-formed conscience.

 

[PaulinVA]

Objectively this is not true, and practically speaking it is unworkable.

Which religion do you think the Constitution favors?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

No. Only that it’s gravely sinful to support abortion in the absence of an equally grave reason to do so. Possibly you could explain the difference to us.

It’s already been discussed and explained on about the last 50 threads on the topic. There’s no point in my explaining it again to those who will not accept any explanation to the contrary, nor am I interested in defending a matter that needs no defense in my opinion.

 

[MikeInVA]

I believe that morality is objective. Either something is true and moral or it isn’t.

I also believe that the Constitution, a human document, attempts to provide human law that is in concert with Judaeo-Christian moral teachings. Just as the founders wrote in English because it was the language they knew, they also based their works on their Judaeo-Christian morals, as that is what they knew.

Other faiths may have teachings that agree with Christian moral teachings but that does not mean that the faith is true - it only means that they have found a portion of the greater truth.

 

[fide]

Now, I happen to think that the Christian worldview is superior and Christian morality should be followed, but, in the public sphere , it is just one competing worldview. If you want people to follow that worldview, you have to convince them.

In the final condensation there exist two options - two "cultures - two “cities” - as Augustine beautifully described in his book, The City of God. There is the City of God, and there is a city of man. He wrote:

The City of God — Book XIV, Chapter 28—Of the Nature of the Two Cities, the Earthly and the Heavenly.

Accordingly, two cities have been formed by two loves: the earthly by the love of self, even to the contempt of God; the heavenly by the love of God, even to the contempt of self. The former, in a word, glories in itself, the latter in the Lord. For the one seeks glory from men; but the greatest glory of the other is God, the witness of conscience.

The one lifts up its head in its own glory; the other says to its God, “Thou art my glory, and the lifter up of mine head.” [Ps. 3: 3] In the one, the princes and the nations it subdues are ruled by the love of ruling; in the other, the princes and the subjects serve one another in love, the latter obeying, while the former take thought for all. The one delights in its own strength, represented in the persons of its rulers; the other says to its God, “I will love Thee, O Lord, my strength.” [Ps. 18:1]

And therefore the wise men of the one city, living according to man, have sought for profit to their own bodies or souls, or both, and those who have known God “glorified Him not as God neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened; professing themselves to be wise,”–that is, glorying in their own wisdom, and being possessed by pride,–“they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.” [Rom 1:21-22]

For they were either leaders or followers of the people in adoring images, “and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.” [Rom. 1: 21-25] But in the other city there is no human wisdom, but only godliness, which offers due worship to the true God, and looks for its reward in the society of the saints, of holy angels as well as holy men, “that God may be all in all.” [1 Cor. 15:28]

There is no convincing, no compromise between these two. We are beginning to experience that non-existence of compromise here in America - the “other city” wants only it’s own way, or the highway. They want only to advance the cause of progressivism toward socialism, and onto (whether they are aware of it or not) dictatorial communism. The spirit behind this is the evil one, and he will not stop until he is finally stopped by God.

 

[Ridgerunner]

And disregarding or diminishing the teaching of Pope Francis, “equally sacred,” when referring to the other life issues is downright misleading. Those words are also found in Faithful Citizenship. And how we best help the poor, those already born, the abandoned and underprivileged, the vulnerable infirm and elderly is also open to legitimate debate.

The Democrats had all the power a party could have in this country early in Obama’s administration. What did they do for the poor, the abandoned, the underprivileged, the vulnerable, infirm and elderly? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Their major accomplishments were both middle class; Obamacare which requires one segment of the middle class to subsidize another segment of the middle class, and “cash for clunkers”; a subsidy for those who could afford new cars.

Well, and there was a lot of money that went to favored people to start up wind and solar companies that crashed and some of which are still subsidized.

But all of the Democrat “best way to actually discourage abortions” is illusory. Their “remedies” are so weak nobody believes them, not even the Democrats.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

, maybe the offensive approach yields fruit in 1% of the cases. But, you’d lose the other 99%

Well I think we will have to agree to disagree here because sometimes no matter how you say it, it will offend people when you tell them something they dont want to hear, know or accept.

And those numbers are only your guess, not fact

He. was. God. He healed people and sent the on their way.

Not quite. He did not heal everyone and He gave us the great commission, spreading the message of the Gospel.

is possible to persuade people without offending them.

Yes but as I said it is not always the way something is said but what is said that offends.

No, It’s offensive and one dimensional

So again, it’s the message the priest is giving in the link that offends, not necessarily the tone.

 

[PaulinVA]

Other faiths may have teachings that agree with Christian moral teachings but that does not mean that the faith is true - it only means that they have found a portion of the greater truth.

BUT, I hope you’re not saying that, in America, the Christian view should be the superior view in terms of laws and policies.

 

[Anrakyr]

The Democrats had all the power a party could have in this country early in Obama’s administration. What did they do for the poor, the abandoned, the underprivileged, the vulnerable, infirm and elderly? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Agreed, however;

At this point I’d be voting trump out just to prevent him going out of his way hurting people.

 

[PaulinVA]

We are beginning to experience that non-existence of compromise here in America - the “other city” wants only it’s own way, or the highway. They want only to advance the cause of progressivism toward socialism, and onto (whether they are aware of it or not) dictatorial communism. The spirit behind this is the evil one, and he will not stop until he is finally stopped by God.

But aren’t you arguing for the exact same thing, only for your viewpoint?

 

[Ridgerunner]

At this point I’d be voting trump out just to prevent him going out of his way hurting people.

But you think being cut to pieces in the womb or having a scissors shoved up into your skull doesn’t hurt? Really?

 

[Anrakyr]

But you think being cut to pieces in the womb or having a scissors shoved up into your skull doesn’t hurt? Really?

That is going to happen regardless.

I don’t remember the Republicans revoking abortion during Bush jr. They barely did anything in the last 4 years.

Ergo abortion becomes a non factor.

 

[CTBcin]

BUT, I hope you’re not saying that, in America, the Christian view should be the superior view in terms of laws and policies.

In terms of law and policies, America should really adopt a view based in a system of natural law. It’s the system supported by Catholicism, not because it’s inherently “religious,” but because it’s based in moral truth.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I don’t remember the Republicans revoking abortion during Bush jr. They barely did anything in the last 4 years.

Bush Jr tried. Alito is clearly prolife. Roberts might be in the right case. Gorsuch and Kavanaugh both are. The only way abortion will cease being a “constitutional right” is if the Supreme Court so declares. Obama proved to us that Democrats will only appoint abortionists who will keep it the law. Biden will too.

Ergo abortion becomes a non factor.

Only to those who are okay with a million killings per year of innocent children. It certainly is not a “non factor” to the Church.

 

[Anrakyr]

Only to those who are okay with a million killings per year of innocent children. It certainly is not a “non factor” to the Church.

600k-800k a year. Not millions.