Five Non-Negotiable Positions Ignore Crimes against Humanity

[Lisa4Catholics]

katherine2:

Wrong Lisa, the world is full of people who look at evil and declare it “just”. Some declare the injustice of abortion to be “just” and some declare unjust wars to be just.

Its quite clear to me who is rationizing. I pray for you.

What are you talking about katherine There are just wars and unjust wars,right?Does the Church not hold a just war clause?Well?There is NO JUST ABORTION CLAUSE NONE!WHAT AM I RATIONALIZING?TELL ME,I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.GOD BLESS

 

[MaggieOH]

I have attempted to look at the responses on this thread and I see a real problem in the way that the comments are being developed.

First of all, I think that you will find that the 5 non-negotiables are something that should be considered by Catholics world-wide, not just in the USA when it comes to choosing representatives for the Parliament.

Second, I think that the original arguments put forward fall flat for the same reason that Jesus chastised the apostles when they objected to Mary of Magdala pouring oil on his head. He said at that moment: “The poor will always be with us.” The Scripture has very clear guidelines regarding the treatment of the poor, the widows, orphans and other disadvantaged groups. These groups will always be with us, and that means that even if we cannot eliminate poverty, we can by our own actions (not just that of government) help those most in need. No Catholic or Christian should be abrogating their duty to assisting those in need when it is appropriate. If you rely soley on government assistance then that means the money has to come from taxes. You cannot have low tax rates and expect to eliminate poverty at the same time. Also you need to remember that people who are on a low income have a responsibility to attempt to help themselves. Socialist programs rob people of that sense of responsibility for taking care of their own upkeep. This does not include people who are not able to look after themselves, and in particular the profoundly disabled.

Third, wars will also always be with us. Please be realistic on the issue of war. There is always somewhere in the world where there are people being killed as a result of war. If you want to say that war in Iraq is unjust the please look at all aspects of the situation over there. I do not consider the behaviour of the insurgents an indication of justice for those who have been downtrodden. There have been thousands of Iraquis killed at the hands of the Ba’ath Party before the intervention of the Coalition of the Willing. Their families deserved some kind of avenging action because of these crimes. In true Biblical fashion, the Lord’s justice has come through the interference of the Coalition of the Willing. The people of Iraq wanted and welcomed the invaders. I do not think that one can classify the invasion as unjust. However, the actions of the insurgents, the killing of politicians and clerics is unjust and the insurgents have been to blame for that situation.

(to be continued)

 

[MaggieOH]

Next, when it comes to the dissemination of nuclear weapons as well as other ordinary weapons, no one country can be called absolutely pure and innocent. All countries have indulged in arms sales to countries where the leaders have indulged in unjust behaviour.

If we were to take countries such as Somalia as well as other African nations as an example, what do we discover to be the truth? My priority here is that in these African nations the governments and leaders have a tendency to be very wasteful and they spend money on lavish buildings or in building up an army or even weapons at the expense of the poverty stricken population. In those circumstances there is little that can be done to break the poverty cycle. Second, there are heaps of civil wars in these nations, and you have extreme examples such as the Tutsi and Hutu tribes attacking each other and causing a high level of blood shed. These are attacks based upon racial matters. In Iraq you have outsiders, that is the insurgents attempting to get contol of the government over there. The people are not being killed by American or Australian soldiers. There are being killed by other Arabs

(to be continued)

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

katherine2:

ByzCath:

That is true,

Thank you. its about time someone realized that.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/nono.gifkatherine, katherine, katherine,http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/nono.gif

So predictable. Taking another page from the liberal handbook.

Edit the replies of others so that they appear to agree with you.

Here so you and other do not make the mistake of really thinking that I said you are right here is the rest of my reply that you edited out.

ByzCath:

but if you in good conscience determin that a particular issue, which we are free to disagree on, is unjust and you want to follow a candidate who agrees with your view but that same candidate holds that one of the non-negotiables is really acceptable, you can not as a faithful Catholic support them.

If you do you are doing nothing more that rationalizing an immoral act.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

katherine2:

But she has not said unjust wars can be waged. Unjust wars, like procured abortion, is wrong, in every place and every time.

There we have it.

But do you understand that the idea of a “Just War” is not dogma? That we can disagree on what makes a “Just War”. I can only think of a handful of bishops who actually forbade those under their jurisdiction from participation in the war in Iraq and none have said anything against the war on terror.

I would add, sort of off topic, that the “Just War” doctrine is a western thing, we do not have such a thing in the Byzantine Tradition. For us all war is bad becuase people are killed, but that does not mean that it is not necessary at times.

For me, I can not see anytime when killing is “just” but I do see where it is necessary.

 

[Uracan]

Thank you katherine2, for the incisive comment–I am relieved that Catholic Answers has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. The rest of you understand the teachings of Christ about as much as my dog Darwin.

Uracan

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Uracan:

Thank you katherine2, for the incisive comment–I am relieved that Catholic Answers has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. The rest of you understand the teachings of Christ about as much as my dog Darwin.

Uracan

http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/mutley-ani1.gif

 

[MaggieOH]

The five non-negotiables are in fact a part of the crimes against humanity. It is a grave crime to intentionally murder unborn children in the womb. The legalisation of abortion on demand as a result of Roe vs. Wade was just the beginning of the slide down a slippery slope of what is intrinsically evil. The legalisation of abortion on demand, plus the wide distribution of the pill has led to a lack of moral responsibility amongst the general population. That lack of responsibility has in turn led to more unplanned pregnancies. Instead of girls waiting until they are ready to have children within marriage, these girls are becoming sexually active at an early age, thus increasing the risk of an increase in a variety of sexually transmitted diseases. At the same time there has been a rise in the number of abortions being performed world wide. Sometimes the girls have wanted to keep their babies but they have been pressured by family members, and sometimes even by the father of the unborn child to go and have an abortion. This is unacceptable to think that children are now considered as nothing more than a commodity that can be done away with.

However, this is just the beginning because the next step has been the lack of survival of severely deformed children. A question arises as to whether the infants died because they could not survive as a result of their incapacity, or whether they died because some doctors and nurses decided that they did not have the right to live in this disabled state. In other words, the legalisation of abortion on demand has also seen an increase in the deaths of babies that are in fact infanticide deaths. This is the first step onto the next stage which is the call for voluntary euthanasia.

Does anyone have the right to say when or when not another person will die? This is the critical issue with regard to euthanasia. The proponents of voluntary euthanasia have been pushing their demands to be allowed to assist people to commit suicide. Then there are those, such as Michael Schiavo who have manufactured a situation to try and prove that the other person does not deserve to continue to live because he or she is allegedly in a persistent vegetative state. If Michael Schiavo gets his way then the evil of this decision will have far reaching consequences upon US society because all disabled people will be vulnerable when it comes to the wishes of relatives who want to get rid of them.

If stem cell research was being confined to stem cells that have been taken from an adult then that would not necessarily be intrinsically evil. On the other hand, if the stem cells are being harvested from aborted fetuses then that is an entirely different matter.

What I am trying to say is that the 5 non negotiables are the five things that have a very wide ranging effect. Please tell me, do you believe that it is possible to abuse medical technology such as ultrasound in order to ensure that only perfect children are born?

Maggie

 

[DeniseR]

katherine2:

And if I have determined in good conscience that a particular war is unjust (even if other faithful Catholics have a different conclusion), I am not at liberty to negotiate over condoning what I beleive to be an unjust war.

Katherine, it sounds like you want “unjust war” added to the list of non-negotiables that CA stated. But as you noted above, faithful Catholics can disagree on this particular topic. Unless you are saying that all war is always wrong and can never under any circumstances be condoned. But the Catholic Church doesn’t take that stance on war. And faithful Catholics cannot disagree on the evils of abortion, euthenasia, cloning, gay marriage, and embryonic stem cell research.

Also, I don’t think you will find any serious politician advocating never entering into war because it is always wrong. To do that would be to turn this country over to the first country that attacks us the day after that policy is in place or the day after that politician took over.

If we were living in 18th or 19th century America I would venture to guess that slavery would be added to the list of non-negotiables as well. Fortunately, our country has abolished such an evil and it is no longer necessary to debate that in politics.

 

[pnewton]

Uracan:

I am relieved that Catholic Answers has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. The rest of you understand the teachings of Christ about as much as my dog Darwin.

Uracan

Then you are here because…?

Since God has made you the light unto us poor ignorant people, don’t you have a cult to start somewhere?

 

[katherine2]

ByzCath:

There we have it.

But do you understand that the idea of a “Just War” is not dogma? That we can disagree on what makes a “Just War”.

Okay. But once our conscience has told us a war is unjust, we must act accordingly.

 

[katherine2]

DeniseR:

Katherine, it sounds like you want “unjust war” added to the list of non-negotiables that CA stated.

No. I consider the CA a fully owned subidarity of another organization that you will have to contact me privately if you want me to name (the moderators are a little touchy about this). “Reforming” CA Voters Guide is not my agenda.

If we were living in 18th or 19th century America I would venture to guess that slavery would be added to the list of non-negotiables as well.

By “we” you mean we Catholics of the Church? You don’t have to guess, you can read history to see if support for abolition was non-negotiable to the Catholics.

 

[Uracan]

Pnewton, You wondered sarcastically why I am here. I am here because I am opposed to the use of the ‘five non-negotiable positions’ as the yardstick to select those who will represent this country. I am here to tell you that the ‘five non-negotiable positions’ do not do justice to the True Teachings of Christ. I am here because I see many Catholics in this great country shirking their responsibility as Christians to follow Christ’s True Teachings and neglecting their responsibility as citizens of a great and powerful democracy.

This country is at a crossroads—We can take the low and easy road on which we succumb to our prejudices, don’t question preconceived notions, and don’t take seriously our responsibility as thoughtful Christians and involved citizens. Or we can take the high less traveled road of thoughtful deliberation and conscientious action. Those who take the low road are able to rationalize as necessary illegal and immoral wars, feel no responsibility for the injustices that cause so much misery and pain on this planet, and trade true understanding of Christ’s teachings for a mere five non-negotiable positions. Those who take the high road will see Christ’s teaching of love thy neighbor extending to all of humanity, and will accept the responsibility to make sure our government is democratic and just.

Uracán

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Uracan:

Thank you katherine2, for the incisive comment–I am relieved that Catholic Answers has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. The rest of you understand the teachings of Christ about as much as my dog Darwin.

Uracan

Argumentum ad hominem. You have yet to prove anything other that an uncanny ability to disparange other people. You have also yet to prove that you understand Catholic dogma more adeptly than anyone else. Maybe YOU should go have a nice conversation with Darwin (which I find an ironic name for a dog from someone who has proclaimed himself defensor fidei veritas.)

 

[geezerbob]

Uracan:

Thank you katherine2, for the incisive comment–I am relieved that Catholic Answers has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. The rest of you understand the teachings of Christ about as much as my dog Darwin.

Uracan

Thank you for your kind words. The “rest of you” includes those of us who have not posted on this topic. I guess anyone who disagrees with you is somewhat less intelligent than your dog, which is probably a bit more intelligent than its owner. At least the dog does not make such odious comparisons.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

geezerbob:

Thank you for your kind words. The “rest of you” includes those of us who have not posted on this topic. I guess anyone who disagrees with you is somewhat less intelligent than your dog, which is probably a bit more intelligent than its owner. At least the dog does not make such odious comparisons.

Her dog thanks you for the compliment http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/mutley-ani1.gif;) God Bless

 

[pnewton]

Uracan:

I am here because I am opposed to the use of the ‘five non-negotiable positions’ as the yardstick to select those who will represent this country. I am here to tell you that the ‘five non-negotiable positions’ do not do justice to the True Teachings of Christ.

It is clear that from your admission and your thread (wow! up to five posts from you!) that you are here to promote an agenda. Perhaps you should have read the rules of the forums first.

We do not need anyone coming in insulting us in toto, claiming to be the true authority on what Christian teaching is. Please address issues without name-calling. Like this one:

Abortion and its promotion is always wrong. War may be just or unjust depeding on the prudential judgement of different Christians. I will never vote for a candidate that promotes abortion. Ever.

This has nothing to do with the pamphlet. It is just that CA nailed these issues dead on.

 

[miguel]

Uracan:

…This country is at a crossroads—We can take the low and easy road on which we succumb to our prejudices, don’t question preconceived notions, and don’t take seriously our responsibility as thoughtful Christians and involved citizens. Or we can take the high less traveled road of thoughtful deliberation and conscientious action. Those who take the low road are able to rationalize as necessary illegal and immoral wars, feel no responsibility for the injustices that cause so much misery and pain on this planet, and trade true understanding of Christ’s teachings for a mere five non-negotiable positions. Those who take the high road will see Christ’s teaching of love thy neighbor extending to all of humanity, and will accept the responsibility to make sure our government is democratic and just.

It seems to me that our country is on many low roads at the moment. Baby killing our own to the tune of 1.5 million per year is the lowest road that comes to mind. Voting for politicians who protect baby killing puts a person on the same lowest of low roads.

 

[sweetchuck]

Uracan:

Those who take the low road are able to rationalize as necessary illegal and immoral wars, feel no responsibility for the injustices that cause so much misery and pain on this planet, and trade true understanding of Christ’s teachings for a mere five non-negotiable positions. Those who take the high road will see Christ’s teaching of love thy neighbor extending to all of humanity, and will accept the responsibility to make sure our government is democratic and just.

Uracán

Mr. hurricane, of what do you accuse us? Do you presume to judge us as hateful, who turn the other way when we see misery and pain on this planet? Tell me, when you see an environmentalist, do ask them, “why don’t you also stand up for the poor and starving of the world and work to end all forms of injustice?” Maybe I presume too much, but I don’t believe you do. I believe you would think to yourself, “keep fighting the good fight, brother” and go on about your business. So why should we, as pro-lifers, who seek to put an end to a type of injustice receive different treatment? Why are we now responsible for the rest of the pain and injustice in the world, whereas, the aforementioned hypothetical environmentalist is not? Why are those who agree with you politically not required to fight every single injustice in the world, but those who are not like you politically should fight all? Do you think we do not pray for peace? Do you think we want pollution? Do you think we do not want justice throughout the world? Do you REALLY think that we do not feel any responsibility to reign in the Kingdom of God on the Earth?

You see, we hate war, but we provide moral support to our troops who put themselves in harm’s way to help Iraqis have a better future. We hate injustice, such as the gassing of hundreds of thousands of Kurds, such as the insurgents who will not allow peace in Iraq. We feed the hungry, which is why we are appalled at the exploitation of the Oil for Food program. We give alms to the poor. We clothe the naked. We give drink to the thirsty. We pray for the suffering souls throughout the world.

But we also fight on a battlefield on which you fear to tread. We fight for the unborn, from zygote to a 10-trillion-celled 100-year-old. We fight for the disabled. We fight for the “unfit.” We fight for the sacred. That God’s holy covenant into which man and women enter be not profaned. When your politicians abandon their commitment to zygoticide, infanticide, ageism and spiritual homicide (endorsement of gay marriage), then they shall once again be worthy of our votes. Until then, our commitment to justice throughout the world obligates us to vote them down.

You accuse us of taking the low road. And yes, we do walk that low road. Don’t you know, a true follower of Christ walks down the low road to gather the sheep who cannot pick themselves up and lift them up? Don’t spend too much time on your high road…

“For God has commanded that every lofty mountain be made low, And that the age-old depths and gorges be filled to level ground, that Israel may advance secure in the glory of God.” Bar.5:7

cont’d

 

[sweetchuck]

cont’d…

So now I ask you: Why do you not fight beside us? Why do you fear to tread on our battlefields? Why do you feel “no responsibility for the injustices that cause so much misery and pain on this planet”? 45,000,000 million people just don’t disappear. Ever notice the void in your own life from the enemies, acquaintences, friends and loved ones you would’ve had? Ever seen what abortion can do to a mother, a father? Perhaps then you will see why this position is “nonnegotiable.”

Ever think about the will of God, how he knew us before he formed the foundations of the Earth? Does God love the embryos – who would live full lives purpose and dignity, but are discarded and disected for research and the advancement of science – any less than he loves you and me? And yet scientists want to discard embryos, yet create new ones, a perfect replica of a unique person. Man kills man created by God; man creates man separate from God. If you can recognize an act of the hatred of God, then perhaps then you will see why these two positions are “nonnegotiable.”

Ever witness the dignity and redemptive value inherent in human suffering, the victory won by a dying person who draws closer and closer to our Lord on the cross with every painful and labored breath? Would you shoot them up with a deadly dose of barbituates before their soul is ready? Careful that you don’t inject your own soul with spiritual arsenic. Perhaps then you will see why this position is “nonnegotiable.”

Ever look into the Church’s teaching on what graces are conferred and what a beautiful vision of God takes place in the covenant of marriage? Would you be offended if someone took the Eucharist and desecrated it? Would you look the other way? Why should you not also be offended when politicians wage spiritual war on another of God’s sacraments? Are secular governments to sanction the sacraments? Why should we encourage our brothers and sisters to indulge their temptations and engage in acts of depravity that will bring eternal death? Perhaps then you will see why this position is “nonnegotiable.”

You should take your own advice when you say, “Christ’s teaching of love thy neighbor extending to all of humanity.” For we know that humanity begins at contraception and ends at natural death. You should fight with us, because we fight for the neighbors nobody wants to fight for.