Five Non-Negotiable Positions Ignore Crimes against Humanity

[sweetchuck]

Listener:

Here is a quote from the Gospel of Mark, Chapter 7. It is Jesus who is speaking.

20] And he said, “What comes out of a man is what defiles a man.
21] For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery,
22] coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
23] All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man.”

Although there is such a thing as mortal sin and venial sin, Jesus says that these things are all evil without worrying about whether one sin is more evil than another. Personally, I would use all of these things and many other issues to make a judgement about a politician. If you people want to vote for someone who has committed fornication, theft, murder, and adultery and any number of these sins because they are not included in the five “non-negotiable” issues, then I guess you are beyond help.

I was always happy that my Dad taught us to think for ourselves and not to let other people do our thinking for us. He always said that wrong is wrong if everybody does it and right is right if nobody does it.

Jn. 19:11 "Jesus answered (him), ‘You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above. For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.’ "

Sounds like, in other cases, Jesus does speak about the varying degrees of sin. He could’ve just told Pilate, don’t worry about Judas, you’re guilty of sin, too.

And it sounds kind of like you’re letting your Dad do your thinking for you, or perhaps you’re taking him out of context. Why would you let your dad do your thinking for you? Because you trusted him, right? Maybe the meaning he intended to convey was that you should not let Average Joe do your thinking for you. Others are most always self-interested. But perhaps it may be wise to yield to the counsel of the Church, through whom the Holy Spirit (who is God) speaks. Let your eternal Dad do your thinking for you. How can you go wrong with the fullness of truth? Isn’t that the definition of humility, to submit our minds to the Lord? Trust the Church, she is the bride of Christ, and she is interested only in His will, the opposite of Average Joe.

 

[vern_humphrey]

sweetchuck:

And it sounds kind of like you’re letting your Dad do your thinking for you, or perhaps you’re taking him out of context. Why would you let your dad do your thinking for you? Because you trusted him, right? Maybe the meaning he intended to convey was that you should not let Average Joe do your thinking for you. Others are most always self-interested. But perhaps it may be wise to yield to the counsel of the Church, through whom the Holy Spirit (who is God) speaks. Let your eternal Dad do your thinking for you. How can you go wrong with the fullness of truth? Isn’t that the definition of humility, to submit our minds to the Lord? Trust the Church, she is the bride of Christ, and she is interested only in His will, the opposite of Average Joe.

It’s one thing to think for yourself, and another to drop out of school, try to fly an airplane without instructions, or wire a building for demolition with no experience.

The Church has the mandate from God to teach us. We are obliged to accept the Church’s teachings. Those who refuse should go elsewhere – they cannot call themselves Catholics if they reject the Magesterium.

 

[miguel]

Listener:

Here is a quote from the Gospel of Mark, Chapter 7. It is Jesus who is speaking.

20] And he said, “What comes out of a man is what defiles a man.
21] For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery,
22] coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
23] All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man.”

Although there is such a thing as mortal sin and venial sin, Jesus says that these things are all evil without worrying about whether one sin is more evil than another. Personally, I would use all of these things and many other issues to make a judgement about a politician. If you people want to vote for someone who has committed fornication, theft, murder, and adultery and any number of these sins because they are not included in the five “non-negotiable” issues, then I guess you are beyond help.

I was always happy that my Dad taught us to think for ourselves and not to let other people do our thinking for us. He always said that wrong is wrong if everybody does it and right is right if nobody does it.

If you followed your Dad’s advice, your common sense would tell you that some sins are worse than others. Stealing a piece of candy from the store is a sin. Killing a baby is a sin. If you don’t think one is worse than the other, you don’t have the ability to think. How many people have been killed in the Iraq war? Maybe 100,000 in 2 years? How many babies are killed every year by abortion just in the US? 1.5 million? If the choice is between two evils, thinking would cause you to resist the greater evil. Thinking would cause you to see that as your obligation, your responsibility. “The unexamined life (i.e., not thinking) is not worth living.”

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Listener:

Katherine2, I just wanted you to know that I agree with you. To say that war is not an important issue just because people disagree on what is and isn’t a just war is just about the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. And to say that helping the poor and having some sort of safety net for the poor isn’t important because people disagree on exactly how this should be done is also a ridiculous statement.

No one said that war and poverty weren’t important. They just isn’t a Catholic position that defines war and poverty as “intrinsically evil”. A Catholic in good standing is allowed multiple stances on these issues, but there is only one stance that one can take with regard to abortion, cloning, euthanasia, embryonic stem cells, and same sex marriage. These issue are evil in and of themselves. There is no circumstance which makes them acceptable.

 

[homeschoolhelen]

katherine2:

Okay. But once our conscience has told us a war is unjust, we must act accordingly.

Please forgive me, I am coming into this half way. I want to ask this question. Katherine is talking about conscience. How are you to know inside if it is your “conscience” or the devil rationalizing for you? Seriously, I am asking. She keeps talking like she has the answers inside her. I don’t think any of us can say this about everything 100%. I know inside that abortion is always wrong. But on some other things I’m not sure and follow the Church’s teachings. Isn’t that why there are Church laws? Someone said what about all the people Saddam Insane killed? What about them?:crying: There are wars in the Bible. That is history and future.

Thanks for putting up with my (name removed by moderator)ut! Feel free to comment . . . I know you will!

Blessings,
Helen

 

[felra]

homeschoolhelen:

How are you to know inside if it is your “conscience” or the devil rationalizing for you? Helen

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

**1783 **Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

 

[homeschoolhelen]

felra:

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

**1783 **Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

If you don’t mind, I am going to open a new thread on this subject so I don’t take away from this thread!

Blessings,
Helen

 

[Tyler_Smedley]

Kathrine,

I don’t see how you can defend you position without leaving what the Church teaches. It might be better to consede and pray for understanding…

 

[vern_humphrey]

homeschoolhelen:

Please forgive me, I am coming into this half way. I want to ask this question. Katherine is talking about conscience. How are you to know inside if it is your “conscience” or the devil rationalizing for you? Seriously, I am asking. She keeps talking like she has the answers inside her. I don’t think any of us can say this about everything 100%. I know inside that abortion is always wrong. But on some other things I’m not sure and follow the Church’s teachings. Isn’t that why there are Church laws? Someone said what about all the people Saddam Insane killed? What about them?:crying: There are wars in the Bible. That is history and future.

Thanks for putting up with my (name removed by moderator)ut! Feel free to comment . . . I know you will!

Blessings,
Helen

What Katherine espouses is a mixture of Situational Ethics and Antinomianism.

Situational Ethics says you judge right and wrong based on the situtation, not on some objective standard. I have to say everyone I have never known who applied Situational Ethics to a moral problem ALWAYS found the most moral thing was to do EXACTLY what they wanted to do.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Antinomianism is the proposition that, "I cannot sin. When I do something that would be a sin for YOU it isn’t a sin for ME – because if it was a sin, a holy person like me wouldn’t be doing it, now would I?"http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

 

[jlw]

Katherine2 is in suspended status??? What’s up??

 

[Uracan]

Scott, whether war and poverty are intrinsically evil is not the issue. The issue is that those who wage wars, oppress the weak, and steal are evil, and you can’t vote for evil people and think that you’re absolved of any responsibility for their misdeeds.

You can go on and on with the same old right-wing rhetoric that this war was justified because Saddam is evil, the Iraqi are now free, that we’re finally winning the war on terrorism, that it was all worth it (worth it to whom?), et cetera. In the final analysis our elected officials and their war machine—in our name—waged wars and caused the death one hundred thousand innocent people in Afghanistan and in Iraq. We who voted for them bear lots of responsibility. You can’t hide behind the five non-negotiable positions.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Uracan:

Scott, whether war and poverty are intrinsically evil is not the issue. The issue is that those who wage wars, oppress the weak, and steal are evil, and you can’t vote for evil people and think that you’re absolved of any responsibility for their misdeeds.

You can go on and on with the same old right-wing rhetoric that this war was justified because Saddam is evil, the Iraqi are now free, that we’re finally winning the war on terrorism, that it was all worth it (worth it to whom?), et cetera. In the final analysis our elected officials and their war machine—in our name—waged wars and caused the death one hundred thousand innocent people in Afghanistan and in Iraq. We who voted for them bear lots of responsibility. You can’t hide behind the five non-negotiable positions.

Before we accept your opinions here, just what are your qualifications?

Have you ever been in a war? In military service? Graduated from a Service College?

What is it about you that makes you more knowledgeable than the rest of us?

 

[sweetchuck]

Uracan:

Scott, whether war and poverty are intrinsically evil is not the issue. The issue is that those who wage wars, oppress the weak, and steal are evil, and you can’t vote for evil people and think that you’re absolved of any responsibility for their misdeeds.

You can go on and on with the same old right-wing rhetoric that this war was justified because Saddam is evil, the Iraqi are now free, that we’re finally winning the war on terrorism, that it was all worth it (worth it to whom?), et cetera. In the final analysis our elected officials and their war machine—in our name—waged wars and caused the death one hundred thousand innocent people in Afghanistan and in Iraq. We who voted for them bear lots of responsibility. You can’t hide behind the five non-negotiable positions.

You don’t seem to understand the concept. War is not always intrinsically evil, the church teaches. Poverty is a direct result of sin, the church teaches, and is part of the human condition (which the current president has done much to remedy). But the five nonnegotiables are ALWAYS intrinsically evil, no matter what, no matter when, no matter why. That IS the issue, despite what you say. This is not some sort of right-wing rhetoric. It’s the voice of the Church. Read some recent encyclicals and you’ll understand.

 

[Uracan]

Vern, what qualifications do I need to post an argument on Catholic Answers? What would having fought in a war prove? Having served in the military? Do you think that somehow I am somehow not qualified to make comments? That’s like saying a priest cannot provide sex education or marriage counseling because he’s celibate!

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Uracan:

Vern, what qualifications do I need to post an argument on Catholic Answers? What would having fought in a war prove? Having served in the military? Do you think that somehow I am somehow not qualified to make comments? That’s like saying a priest cannot provide sex education or marriage counseling because he’s celibate!

I needn’t HIDE behind anything,you look at the non-negotiables.What are they?Do you even know?Respond with them and I want to ask you some questions in regards to them.God Bless

 

[Uracan]

Sweetchuck,

So you believe the poor are poor because they’re sinners, and the Oppressor and the Warmonger have no hand in this world’s misery? In my twelve years of Catholic school upbringing I never ever heard that the Catholic Church teaches poor people are poor because they’re sinners. Tell me, how did you come to that conclusion?

 

[puzzleannie]

Uracan:

The “five non-negotiable positions” do not address several far more significant and morally important issues that affect the lives of billions of people already living on this earth. . . .
Far more significant to the poor, the starving, the sick and the downtrodden are the illegal and immoral wars which kill millions of innocent people, the avarice of the powerful elite which starves millions of others, the exploitation of poor countries, and the military expansionism which is used to subjugate other countries and is burdening this country with intolerable debt.

if there is no Right to Life, absolute, granted to each person by the CReator, by virtue of the fact that the human person has dignity conferred by the act of creation, and if this right is not guaranteed by the constitutions of all nations, then there is no basis for any action to favor the sick, poor, oppressed, downtrodden, war-weary or exploited persons. If they do not have that basic human dignity endowed by the Creator and have an inalienable right to exist, there is no particular reason why they should not be targeted by war-mongers or other predators.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Uracan:

Vern, what qualifications do I need to post an argument on Catholic Answers? What would having fought in a war prove? Having served in the military? Do you think that somehow I am somehow not qualified to make comments? That’s like saying a priest cannot provide sex education or marriage counseling because he’s celibate!

If you have no qualifications, but hold opinions as rabidly as you do, I remind you that a wise man once said, "Uninformed opinions are like a certain part of the human anatomy. Everyone has one, they all have an aroma, and if anyone seems really interested in yours, you better hope he’s a proctologist."http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

I’m glad you brought up the issue of a priest. A priest who provides sex education or marriage counseling has special training – and is normally certified by the diocese.

 

[sweetchuck]

Uracan:

Sweetchuck,

So you believe the poor are poor because they’re sinners, and the Oppressor and the Warmonger have no hand in this world’s misery? In my twelve years of Catholic school upbringing I never ever heard that the Catholic Church teaches poor people are poor because they’re sinners. Tell me, how did you come to that conclusion?

Tell me, Uracan, Caribbean god of evil, what right do you have to project your prejudices against me into my words? I never said the poor are poor because they are sinners. I said poverty is the result of sin. Poverty is a product of the sin of the world, original sin. If there were no sin, there would be no poverty. You are blinded by your intolerance of me. No one else came to this incorrect conclusion based on my post.

So now that we’ve cleared that up, please tell me WHY you think that the impoverished of the world are worse off with a pro-life person in office as opposed to a pro-infanticide politician.

 

[fix]

Uracan:

Scott, whether war and poverty are intrinsically evil is not the issue. The issue is that those who wage wars, oppress the weak, and steal are evil, and you can’t vote for evil people and think that you’re absolved of any responsibility for their misdeeds.

You can go on and on with the same old right-wing rhetoric that this war was justified because Saddam is evil, the Iraqi are now free, that we’re finally winning the war on terrorism, that it was all worth it (worth it to whom?), et cetera. In the final analysis our elected officials and their war machine—in our name—waged wars and caused the death one hundred thousand innocent people in Afghanistan and in Iraq. We who voted for them bear lots of responsibility. You can’t hide behind the five non-negotiable positions.

The last election had only two choices for president that could win. Neither was perfect, but one was exceedingly more pro death and would have allowed more evil and his name is Kerry.

As has been pointed out war is not intrinsically evil. Kerry supported several things that are intrinsically evil. While both candidates allow for abortion, Kerry is much more pro abortion than Bush.

How can you compare the war in Iraq with the positions held by Kerry that are in direct contradiction to the teachings of the church, not prudential judgments on concrete matters, but teachings on faith and morals that were publiclly rejected by a man who claims to be Catholic and has some understanding of objective truth?