Five Non-Negotiable Positions Ignore Crimes against Humanity

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sweetchuck:
Mr. hurricane, of what do you accuse us? Do you presume to judge us as hateful, who turn the other way when we see misery and pain on this planet? Tell me, when you see an environmentalist, do ask them, “why don’t you also stand up for the poor and starving of the world and work to end all forms of injustice?” Maybe I presume too much, but I don’t believe you do. I believe you would think to yourself, “keep fighting the good fight, brother” and go on about your business. So why should we, as pro-lifers, who seek to put an end to a type of injustice receive different treatment? Why are we now responsible for the rest of the pain and injustice in the world, whereas, the aforementioned hypothetical environmentalist is not? Why are those who agree with you politically not required to fight every single injustice in the world, but those who are not like you politically should fight all? Do you think we do not pray for peace? Do you think we want pollution? Do you think we do not want justice throughout the world? Do you REALLY think that we do not feel any responsibility to reign in the Kingdom of God on the Earth?

You see, we hate war, but we provide moral support to our troops who put themselves in harm’s way to help Iraqis have a better future. We hate injustice, such as the gassing of hundreds of thousands of Kurds, such as the insurgents who will not allow peace in Iraq. We feed the hungry, which is why we are appalled at the exploitation of the Oil for Food program. We give alms to the poor. We clothe the naked. We give drink to the thirsty. We pray for the suffering souls throughout the world.

But we also fight on a battlefield on which you fear to tread. We fight for the unborn, from zygote to a 10-trillion-celled 100-year-old. We fight for the disabled. We fight for the “unfit.” We fight for the sacred. That God’s holy covenant into which man and women enter be not profaned. When your politicians abandon their commitment to zygoticide, infanticide, ageism and spiritual homicide (endorsement of gay marriage), then they shall once again be worthy of our votes. Until then, our commitment to justice throughout the world obligates us to vote them down.

You accuse us of taking the low road. And yes, we do walk that low road. Don’t you know, a true follower of Christ walks down the low road to gather the sheep who cannot pick themselves up and lift them up? Don’t spend too much time on your high road…

“For God has commanded that every lofty mountain be made low, And that the age-old depths and gorges be filled to level ground, that Israel may advance secure in the glory of God.” Bar.5:7

cont’d
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katherine2:
The evil of no action allows one to call a different evil, good. It makes no difference if the other evil is a greater or lesser evil. And people who deny that all evil is evil are the ones guilty of rationalization.
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Katherine, dear, as has been pointed out in another post, your positions are simply not Catholic. I’ll repost it below:

"Actually, you are undeniably wrong. Your post contradicts millenia of Church teachings. That is a very Protestant line of thinking, that sin is sin and all sins are equal. All sins at the very least wound our relationship with God, but some extinguish it entirely and lead to spiritual death. Theft, though wrong, can be diminished in culpability when other factors are present, such as extreme hunger. Read this section of the Catechism for an explanation on the gravity of sins. I would recommend you read all of Article 8, of Part III, Section 1, Chapter 1, but at the very least, just roman numeral IV:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM"

Your problem is, you will not accept the Magesterium. You want to turn the Church and Catholic morality into what you want it to be – and are not willing to accept that Catholic morality is already defned by the Magesterium.

I pray for you.
 
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katherine2:
Okay. But once our conscience has told us a war is unjust, we must act accordingly.
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Only when your conscience has been properly formed and when your acts do not go against other Teachings of the Church, such as the five non-negotiables.
 
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Katherine2:
Okay. But once our conscience has told us a war is unjust, we must act accordingly…
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ByzCath:
Only when your conscience has been properly formed and when your acts do not go against other Teachings of the Church, such as the five non-negotiables.
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I think she has put her case pretty clearly – she doesn’t need an informed conscience, nor the teachings of the Church. She goes with her feelings.

Which makes one wonder why she claims to be Catholic at all.
 
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katherine2:
No. I consider the CA a fully owned subidarity of another organization that you will have to contact me privately if you want me to name (the moderators are a little touchy about this). “Reforming” CA Voters Guide is not my agenda.

By “we” you mean we Catholics of the Church? You don’t have to guess, you can read history to see if support for abolition was non-negotiable to the Catholics.
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I’m not interested in arguing semantics. I think my example that slavery is always wrong was clear enough to understand. I was trying to discuss the topic and to understand why you disagree with CA in the 5 non-negotiables and how you think electing someone who you think believes in starving people by their policies is always wrong in the eyes of the Church.

Many people disagree on how to best feed the world and help the poor and expand freedom. So one person thinks the best way is to go to war to end an evil regime that is killing its own people and give them the military and economic support to live in a free society. And the other person thinks it’s best to allow the people to fend for themselves and keep sending money and food for the poor people even though the dictator hoards it all and doesn’t distribute it to his people. Neither is 100% right or 100% wrong. Both sides can be debated on current circumstances and neither will work perfectly. And the Church doesn’t take an official stand on either. Pope John Paul II issued his statement about going to war with Iraq, for example. But he did not make his statement binding (ex-cathedra) on all Catholics. It’s important to understand the difference.

On the other hand, the church has declared that abortion, euthenasia, etc. are always wrong. Period.
 
Katherine2, I just wanted you to know that I agree with you. To say that war is not an important issue just because people disagree on what is and isn’t a just war is just about the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. And to say that helping the poor and having some sort of safety net for the poor isn’t important because people disagree on exactly how this should be done is also a ridiculous statement.
 
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DeniseR:
I’m not interested in arguing semantics. I think my example that slavery is always wrong was clear enough to understand. I was trying to discuss the topic and to understand why you disagree with CA in the 5 non-negotiables and how you think electing someone who you think believes in starving people by their policies is always wrong in the eyes of the Church.

Many people disagree on how to best feed the world and help the poor and expand freedom. So one person thinks the best way is to go to war to end an evil regime that is killing its own people and give them the military and economic support to live in a free society. And the other person thinks it’s best to allow the people to fend for themselves and keep sending money and food for the poor people even though the dictator hoards it all and doesn’t distribute it to his people. Neither is 100% right or 100% wrong. Both sides can be debated on current circumstances and neither will work perfectly. And the Church doesn’t take an official stand on either. Pope John Paul II issued his statement about going to war with Iraq, for example. But he did not make his statement binding (ex-cathedra) on all Catholics. It’s important to understand the difference.

On the other hand, the church has declared that abortion, euthenasia, etc. are always wrong. Period.
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Well said. Logic tends to allude those who value feelings and a vague semi Christianized version of secular morality over truth.
 
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Listener:
Katherine2, I just wanted you to know that I agree with you. To say that war is not an important issue just because people disagree on what is and isn’t a just war is just about the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. And to say that helping the poor and having some sort of safety net for the poor isn’t important because people disagree on exactly how this should be done is also a ridiculous statement.
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It is not an issue whether the poor, or war does not matter they do.The issue is that they do not trump abortion.If you are poor,that says you have been allowed to be born,you weren’t murdered in utero:( The right to life is paramount.Does that mean that the war in Iraq is ignored NO.But if you vote according to the war in Iraq that will end you take the chance of the war on the unborn to go on indefinately:nope: GW has alot for the unborn as well as other things that are very serious,so serious that they cry out to heaven.God Bless
 
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fix:
Well said. Logic tends to allude those who value feelings and a vague semi Christianized version of secular morality over truth.
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It’s funny how they claim to be Catholic – and then announce that their uninformed conscience trumps the teachings of the Church, and reject such Catholic concepts as priorities amongst sins and evils.
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
It is not an issue whether the poor, or war does not matter they do.The issue is that they do not trump abortion.If you are poor,that says you have been allowed to be born,you weren’t murdered in utero:( The right to life is paramount.Does that mean that the war in Iraq is ignored NO.But if you vote according to the war in Iraq that will end you take the chance of the war on the unborn to go on indefinately:nope: GW has alot for the unborn as well as other things that are very serious,so serious that they cry out to heaven.God Bless
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The War on Terrorism is a Godsend to these people – it gives them a figleaf to hide behind while supporting pro-abortion politicians.

And it doesn’t matter that their antics serve to prolong the war – in their eyes, the longer it goes on, the better.
 
Here is a quote from the Gospel of Mark, Chapter 7. It is Jesus who is speaking.

20] And he said, “What comes out of a man is what defiles a man.
21] For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery,
22] coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
23] All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man.”

Although there is such a thing as mortal sin and venial sin, Jesus says that these things are all evil without worrying about whether one sin is more evil than another. Personally, I would use all of these things and many other issues to make a judgement about a politician. If you people want to vote for someone who has committed fornication, theft, murder, and adultery and any number of these sins because they are not included in the five “non-negotiable” issues, then I guess you are beyond help.

I was always happy that my Dad taught us to think for ourselves and not to let other people do our thinking for us. He always said that wrong is wrong if everybody does it and right is right if nobody does it.
 
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Listener:
Here is a quote from the Gospel of Mark, Chapter 7. It is Jesus who is speaking.

20] And he said, “What comes out of a man is what defiles a man.
21] For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery,
22] coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
23] All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man.”

Although there is such a thing as mortal sin and venial sin, Jesus says that these things are all evil without worrying about whether one sin is more evil than another. Personally, I would use all of these things and many other issues to make a judgement about a politician. If you people want to vote for someone who has committed fornication, theft, murder, and adultery and any number of these sins because they are not included in the five “non-negotiable” issues, then I guess you are beyond help.

I was always happy that my Dad taught us to think for ourselves and not to let other people do our thinking for us. He always said that wrong is wrong if everybody does it and right is right if nobody does it.
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Where, precisely, in the Bible does Jesus say, “these things are all evil without worrying about whether one sin is more evil than another?”

Are you a Catholic? I ask because I have never before had a Catholic offer me a “proof text” that didn’t exist – although Fundamentalists will often try that trick.
 
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Listener:
Here is a quote from the Gospel of Mark, Chapter 7. It is Jesus who is speaking.

20] And he said, “What comes out of a man is what defiles a man.
21] For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery,
22] coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
23] All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man.”

Although there is such a thing as mortal sin and venial sin, Jesus says that these things are all evil without worrying about whether one sin is more evil than another. Personally, I would use all of these things and many other issues to make a judgement about a politician. If you people want to vote for someone who has committed fornication, theft, murder, and adultery and any number of these sins because they are not included in the five “non-negotiable” issues, then I guess you are beyond help.

I was always happy that my Dad taught us to think for ourselves and not to let other people do our thinking for us. He always said that wrong is wrong if everybody does it and right is right if nobody does it.
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If he was a fornicator, murderer, adulterer that certainly can be taken into consideration. But I’ve yet to see a politician run on a pro-adultery platform. We are certainly not limited by the five non-negotiables, but they are there because there are real and influential politcal movements dedicated to promoting them. Why are people so incredibly dense on this?

As far as others thinking for us, this is a non-issue. Nobody is forced to be a Catholic and anyone is free to leave. If one wants to be in this Church there are certain teachings you are expected to adhere to. This is no different than membership in any other group. Imagine a NAACP member voting for pro-KKK policies.

Scott
 
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katherine2:
Liberals don’t need to ask. It was the liberals who spoke out against Hitler and demanded action while the right wing was wedded to isolationism. Don’t forget the man with the thin little umbrella was a Conservative
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Now it’s the left wing that is reactionary and isolationist.
 
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Listener:
Katherine2, I just wanted you to know that I agree with you. To say that war is not an important issue just because people disagree on what is and isn’t a just war is just about the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. And to say that helping the poor and having some sort of safety net for the poor isn’t important because people disagree on exactly how this should be done is also a ridiculous statement.
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Did I miss something?? Did someone actually say “war is not an important issue”??? Proponents of the war never said that we should not ever debate the merits of military action. But there NO merits to abortion-on-demand. Did someone say “helping the poor isn’t important”??? No, it is important. But the “how” is pretty negotiable isn’t it??
 
**katherine2 [/quote said:
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Liberals don’t need to ask. It was the liberals who spoke out against Hitler and demanded action while the right wing was wedded to isolationism. Don’t forget the man with the thin little umbrella was a Conservative
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jlw:
Now it’s the left wing that is reactionary and isolationist.
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Obviously.

If Katherine is serious, she means that lberals don’t think – they don’t have to. Being liberal is a substitute for thinking and asking, and for following the teachings of the Church.
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