For German bishops mercy comes at a price, critics charge

[TEPO]

Can. 1259 The Church can acquire temporal goods by every just means of natural or positive law permitted to others.

Can. 1260 The Church has an innate right to require from the Christian faithful those things which are necessary for the purposes proper to it.

Can. 1262 The faithful are to give support to the Church by responding to appeals and according to the norms issued by the conference of bishops.but themselves and socialist ideals.

And the Catechism also says, “The following are also morally illicit: …tax evasion” (CCC 2409).

Like i said, Canon law is man-made. We must never use it as a tool for measuring what is moral. Only Divine Revelation is Truth. We can also consider Ecclesiastical tradition as trustworthy… But Canon Laws are worldly laws, created solely by men for people in the world.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Like i said, Canon law is man-made. We must never use it as a tool for measuring what is moral. Only Divine Revelation is Truth. We can also consider Ecclesiastical tradition as trustworthy… But Canon Laws are worldly laws, created solely by men for people in the world.

And we have an obligation to follow canon law. Not doing that is being disobedient.

If anything, canon law states that it is moral to require a Church tax.

 

[TEPO]

Catholics are required to obey their bishops, and if you live in some European countries that entails paying Church taxes.

Actually the reason for the Church tax is to better follow Jesus.

Here’s what Pope Benedict had to say about the Church in Germany’s charitable work (helped in a large way by their Church tax):

The Church in Germany has many social and charitable institutions through which the love of neighbour is practised in ways that bring social benefits and reach to the ends of the earth. At this moment I would like to express my gratitude and appreciation to all those working in Caritas Germany and in other church organizations who give their time and effort generously in voluntary service to the Church.

And it is certainly unsubstantiated that the German bishops are socialist.

I’m positive that i’ve already made it clear that there is no harm in the tax. Its in the denying of the sacraments where the problem exists.

 

[TEPO]

And we have an obligation to follow canon law. Not doing that is being disobedient.

If anything, canon law states that it is moral to require a Church tax.

Canon law is not divine revelation. I dont have to like Canon Law, in fact i can despise it if i please. I only need to follow it, since its a requirement authorized by God.

 

[CrossofChrist]

I’m positive that i’ve already made it clear that there is no harm in the tax. Its in the denying of the sacraments where the problem exists.

The denying of the sacraments is because of disobedience and scandal. Someone who publicly claims (for whatever reason) to not be in full communion with the Church should renounce that before trying to receive sacraments which are public acts saying you are in full communion with the Church. You can’t have it both ways.

And there is also the scandal of being publicly disobedient to the bishops.

 

[TEPO]

The denying of the sacraments is because of disobedience and scandal. Someone who publicly claims (for whatever reason) to not be in full communion with the Church should renounce that before trying to receive sacraments which are public acts saying you are in full communion with the Church. You can’t have it both ways.

And there is also the scandal of being publicly disobedient to the bishops.

I disagree because my Catholic informed conscience tells me otherwise. Also, much of the Church heirarchy disagrees, and the Church is being ripped in two because of the radical moves of the German Bishops.

I wonder how many last rights these bishops have refused, or how many poor souls are now lost because of their insensitivities.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

Syllabus of Errors (the following are rejected):

1. The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect. – Apostolic Letter “Ad Apostolicae,” Aug. 22, 1851.
2. The Church has no innate and legitimate right of acquiring and possessing property. – Allocution “Nunquam fore,” Dec. 15, 1856; Encyclical “Incredibili,” Sept. 7, 1863.

But what was claimed was the Church can’t exercise temporal authority via a tax. And it certainly can.

If this tax was immoral (along with all the other taxes in Europe), I’m sure something would’ve been done by now, actually probably a LONG time ago.

Perhaps the situation could be better, but its certainly not immoral.

There was also a time when one was required to given 10%. Those days are gone. Come into the 21st Century.

Can. 1259 The Church can acquire temporal goods by every just means of natural or positive law permitted to others.

Can. 1260 The Church has an innate right to require from the Christian faithful those things which are necessary for the purposes proper to it.

Can. 1262 The faithful are to give support to the Church by responding to appeals and according to the norms issued by the conference of bishops.but themselves and socialist ideals.

And the Catechism also says, “The following are also morally illicit: …tax evasion” (CCC 2409).

Does it also have the right to deprive the Sacraments because people don’t want to have to pay a fixed amount of their money. Furthermore would it still be tax evasion if they continued to put money in collection basket in lieu of this tax?

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

So if its in Canon Law that the Church can tax then are the Bishops of other Countries who don’t have this tax system being disobedient to Canon Law?

 

[TEPO]

If anything, canon law states that it is moral to require a Church tax.

Anyone who recieves their morals from Canon Law, is not following the Truth, but a reflection of the truth with worldly attatchments.

Truth is revealed in our Deposit of Faith, where Divine Revelation is the source for learning morals.

 

[Corki]

So if its in Canon Law that the Church can tax then are the Bishops of other Countries who don’t have this tax system being disobedient to Canon Law?

Just to be clear, the situation in Germany is not that the Church is taxing anyone. All churches receive revenue from the government which is collected as a tax. The tax is distributed to the different churches based on their numbers. An individual can claim what amounts to a tax credit if he affirms that he does not belong to any of the organized religions that benefit from the revenue.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Just to be clear, the situation in Germany is not that the Church is taxing anyone. All churches receive revenue from the government which is collected as a tax. The tax is distributed to the different churches based on their numbers. An individual can claim what amounts to a tax credit if he affirms that he does not belong to any of the organized religions that benefit from the revenue.

Just to be clear this may have further implications… maybe this isn’t such a positive thing. Maybe it creates a situation in which Germany has an undue amount of influence in the Church for its population and rate of decline. Maybe not, but maybe too.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

Lets review the facts in the article:

1. The “church tax” is given to the religious communities, rather than those communities collecting a tithe. The Church uses its funds to help run its parishes, schools, hospitals, and welfare projects.
2. In response to the numbers de-registering, the German bishops issued a decree in September 2012 calling such departure “a serious lapse” and listing a number of ways they are barred from participating in the life of the Church.
3. While these penalties have been described as “de facto excommunication,” the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, wrote in a March 13, 2006 document that opting out of taxes in a civil situation was not the same as renouncing the faith, and thus excommunication did not apply to such persons.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html

Since the Vatican has stated that these renouncement’s do not constitute formal, then the German Bishops have no moral justification. Furthermore the money from these funds are not for the respective parishes but for religious communities to help run its parishes, schools, hospitals, and welfare projects.

 

[twf]

As housing, etc is already provided by the Church, I have to wonder what the bishops do with the bulk of their 6 figure salaries? Certainly bishops in Canada make a fraction of what bishops in Germany are being paid. In principle I’m not against paying bishops well for their very demanding jobs…but to have such vast discrepancies between developed countries…

 

[CrossofChrist]

There was also a time when one was required to given 10%. Those days are gone. Come into the 21st Century.

Well, this is the 21st Century and the Church still allows for Church taxes. She has been granted temporal power. The extent to which it is exercised can vary.

 

[CrossofChrist]

1. While these penalties have been described as “de facto excommunication,” the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, wrote in a March 13, 2006 document that opting out of taxes in a civil situation was not the same as renouncing the faith, and thus excommunication did not apply to such persons.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html

Is there an interdict involved? That is different from an excommunication, but the effects on participating in Church life are very similar (per a newadvent article).

Since the Vatican has stated that these renouncement’s do not constitute formal, then the German Bishops have no moral justification.

If all these people are interdicted I believe the bishops are justified.

Furthermore the money from these funds are not for the respective parishes but for religious communities to help run its parishes, schools, hospitals, and welfare projects.

Yes, and much good is done regardless.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

Well, this is the 21st Century and the Church still allows for Church taxes. She has been granted temporal power. The extent to which it is exercised can vary.

Does the Church allow the German Bishops to withhold the Sacraments because of the Church tax?

 

[TEPO]

Furthermore the money from these funds are not for the respective parishes but for religious communities to help run its parishes, schools, hospitals, and welfare projects.

It appears that the temporal “needs” of the world are being placed above saving the souls of the less desirable.

…i say that because Im not aware of any current lack of upkeep at the parishes in Germany. Perhaps they should outsource 60% of their funds to other, less fortunate countries.

 

[Corki]

It appears that the temporal needs of the world are being placed above saving the souls of the less desirable.

It’s not the temporal needs of the world but the Church has temporal needs that cannot be ignored. Without income, there would be no parish buildings, fewer Masses, less access to the Sacraments, etc.

Imagine, in a US comparison, if the government required that the parish turn over half of the collection each week. There would certainly be an effect on what the parish could do. This isn’t secularism but simple math.

 

[TEPO]

It’s not the temporal needs of the world but the Church has temporal needs that cannot be ignored. Without income, there would be no parish buildings, fewer Masses, less access to the Sacraments, etc.

Imagine, in a US comparison, if the government required that the parish turn over half of the collection each week. There would certainly be an effect on what the parish could do. This isn’t secularism but simple math.

I understand Germany, all together, is a very clean and beautiful country. Its against the law, for instance, to even spit on the ground and if one does, the people there would immediately point and start talking -thats what someone told me who visited Germany once.

…I suspect that there is no current problem with upkeep at parish buildings in Germany, especially when considering their ‘Bishops of bling’. I also suspect that some Catholics there might stop paying the Church tax to give their money to more preferable recipients, such as the poor outside Germany -where Churches and people are much less fortunate.

…such intentions are not evil. They do not deserve excommunication in my book, because the Universal Church consists of Catholics from around the world, and the poor from around the world need help more.

 

[TEPO]

“As I am not an authority in the area of church management, as my qualification is in pastoral theory, I have to relinquish the responsibility to Dr Kaspar who was [according to the report into the spending] ‘the only person with an overarching view of the seat’s assets’.”

m.thelocal.de/20140327/how-bishop-of-limburg-franz-peter-tebartz-van-elst-blew-31-million-euros