B
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
V
Vico
Guest
If you can achieve perfect contrition for all sins then you can obtain a plenary indulgence for that purpose (under the usual conditions) with thirty minutes of sacred scriptural reading (concession 30).I do this.
I just wish I could have my punishments lifted.
B
BobCatholic
Guest
Yeah, but the usual conditions require me to have no attachments to sin - not even a venial one. I’m so imperfect, that will never happen.If you can achieve perfect contrition for all sins then you can obtain a plenary indulgence for that purpose (under the usual conditions) with thirty minutes of sacred scriptural reading (concession 30).
And indulgences don’t take away all temporal punishment for sins, nobody was whisked away to the Garden of Eden after getting a plenary.
V
Vico
Guest
Both baptism and a plenary indulgence removes ***all ***temporal punishment for sin. Not living in the Garden of Eden is not temporal punishment for sin and was only given to Adam and Eve.Yeah, but the usual conditions require me to have no attachments to sin - not even a venial one. I’m so imperfect, that will never happen.
And indulgences don’t take away all temporal punishment for sins, nobody was whisked away to the Garden of Eden after getting a plenary.
Catechism 1471 (excerpt): “An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.”
Catechism 1263 (excerpt): “By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.”
B
BobCatholic
Guest
Let me put what you said to the test.Both baptism and a plenary indulgence removes ***all ***temporal punishment for sin. Not living in the Garden of Eden is not temporal punishment for sin and was only given to Adam and Eve.
The second I am baptized, why am I not whisked away to the Garden of Eden?
Answer: We are not whisked away to the Garden of Eden. Therefore, we are held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve (and others as well). The punishment was imposed by God, that we cannot live in the Garden of Eden. This is temporal punishment.
V
Vico
Guest
The definitions used by the Church for temporal punishment are not allegorical. Using your definition will be misleading when you read the Catechism unless you can adjust for the Church definition of real temporal punishment. I fear that since you keep repeating it that way that you do not understand what real temporal punishment is.Let me put what you said to the test.
The second I am baptized, why am I not whisked away to the Garden of Eden?
Answer: We are not whisked away to the Garden of Eden. Therefore, we are held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve (and others as well). The punishment was imposed by God, that we cannot live in the Garden of Eden. This is temporal punishment.
B
BobCatholic
Guest
Someone sins.You ignore the definitions used by the Church for temporal punishment. Using your own private definition will be misleading when you read the Catechism unless you can adjust for the Church definition. I fear that since you keep repeating it that way that you do not understand what temporal punishment is.
God imposes a punishment on the person doing the sin.
The punishments are spiritual and temporal.
Where did I go wrong here? This is not complicated.
So, let’s look at Adam and Eve.
They sinned.
God imposed a punishment on them. Kicked out of Garden. Increased labor pains. Work for a living with the sweat of the brow. Reasoning is messed up, and darkened.
Those are temporal punishments.
There was a spiritual punishment: Deprived of grace.
Again, where did I go wrong here?
Then we suffer the same exact punishment that Adam and Eve did. We are held temporally responsible for their sins.
V
Vico
Guest
The Catechism refers to “The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity”.Someone sins.
God imposes a punishment on the person doing the sin.
The punishments are spiritual and temporal.
Where did I go wrong here? This is not complicated.
So, let’s look at Adam and Eve.
They sinned.
God imposed a punishment on them. Kicked out of Garden. Increased labor pains. Work for a living with the sweat of the brow. Reasoning is messed up, and darkened.
Those are temporal punishments.
There was a spiritual punishment: Deprived of grace.
Again, where did I go wrong here?
Then we suffer the same exact punishment that Adam and Eve did. We are held temporally responsible for their sins.
Adam and Eve
Adam and Eve received the punishment for their actual sin. Human nature was elevated for Adam and Eve which was a gift. Genesis 2:15 says that God created the first man and subsequently put him in paradise. Adam was not created there but placed there. Original sin for Adam and Eve is actual sin so they lost their elevated nature gift and gift of .
Descendants
Descendants do not have have elevated nature and are not placed in Eden designed for those with elevated nature. It is not possible to loose a gift that you never had and descendants never had the gifts.
Actual Punishment
For the descendants, original sin is analogical sin, so original sin any idea of punishment for analogical sin is analogical punishment not actual punishment. The Church teaches that God could have created man without supernatural or praeter-natural gifts, but not in a condition of sin, as shown by Pope Pius V rejection of the assertion of Baius to the contrary.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.
405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
G
goout
Guest
And as a Christian, you know that Christ has defeated the temporal problems of sin and death.Someone sins.
God imposes a punishment on the person doing the sin.
The punishments are spiritual and temporal.
Where did I go wrong here? This is not complicated.
So, let’s look at Adam and Eve.
They sinned.
God imposed a punishment on them. Kicked out of Garden. Increased labor pains. Work for a living with the sweat of the brow. Reasoning is messed up, and darkened.
Those are temporal punishments.
There was a spiritual punishment: Deprived of grace.
Again, where did I go wrong here?
Then we suffer the same exact punishment that Adam and Eve did. We are held temporally responsible for their sins.
Will you accept his victory, or do you place your struggles ahead of Him?
B
BobCatholic
Guest
I accept His Victory. Where is the Garden of Eden located and which flight goes there?And as a Christian, you know that Christ has defeated the temporal problems of sin and death.
Will you accept his victory, or do you place your struggles ahead of Him?
There is none. So He didn’t defeat that problem of sin, we are still held temporally responsible for others’ sins. Why is He holding back?
B
BobCatholic
Guest
As did we. You’ll notice we suffer the same punishment as they did.Adam and Eve received the punishment for their actual sin.
Out of Garden of Eden. Loss of grace. Suffering & pain. Working hard for a living.
And life itself is supposedly a gift (when I think it is a responsibility).Human nature was elevated for Adam and Eve which was a gift.
They don’t have elevated nature because it was TAKEN AWAY. That “elevated nature” was insufficient for overcoming their imperfections, hence, it was only a matter of time before they sinned. Resistance was futile. All it took was time before - boom - sin arrived.Descendants do not have have elevated nature and are not placed in Eden designed for those with elevated nature.
Let’s put that to the test.It is not possible to loose a gift that you never had and descendants never had the gifts.
Where is the next flight to the Garden of Eden? Oh yeah, there is none. Proof positive that a gift was lost.
G
goout
Guest
Ok, so your sin has the victory, not Christ.I accept His Victory. Where is the Garden of Eden located and which flight goes there?
There is none. So He didn’t defeat that problem of sin, we are still held temporally responsible for others’ sins. Why is He holding back?
Is that what I hear you saying?
It doesn’t matter what you decide to accept, you are going to suffer in this life. Everyone, without exception. Your accusation that God is holding out on you will not change this one bit.
V
Vico
Guest
Adam and Eve lost their Eden and gifts through their sin, we never had them, but were never destined to have what they lost at our birth, and that is the difference. The Church teaches that the sanctifying grace that Adam and Eve had was sufficient to not sin mortally, ever, same as for us.As did we. You’ll notice we suffer the same punishment as they did.
Out of Garden of Eden. Loss of grace. Suffering & pain. Working hard for a living.
And life itself is supposedly a gift (when I think it is a responsibility).
They don’t have elevated nature because it was TAKEN AWAY. That “elevated nature” was insufficient for overcoming their imperfections, hence, it was only a matter of time before they sinned. Resistance was futile. All it took was time before - boom - sin arrived.
Let’s put that to the test.
Where is the next flight to the Garden of Eden? Oh yeah, there is none. Proof positive that a gift was lost.
B
BobCatholic
Guest
Correct. They lost their gifts because it was a punishment. We also lost those gifts because of the same punishment.Adam and Eve lost their Eden and gifts through their sin, we never had them, but were never destined to have what they lost at our birth, and that is the difference. The Church teaches that the sanctifying grace that Adam and Eve had was sufficient to not sin mortally, ever, same as for us.
We were never destined to get them because we are being held responsible temporally for their sin. In fact, we are held temporally responsible for the sins of not just Adam and Eve, but also our ancestors.
The sanctifying grace they had was insufficient to overcome their imperfections, and that’s why they fell because they were imperfect.
There’s also another thing: You don’t think that Adam and Eve would have repented throughout their lifetime and been forgiven by God? Apparently not. Even ifthey were forgiven, there are still no flights to the Garden of Eden.
Christ’s victory on the Cross did not conquer temporal punishments we are being held responsible for. If you disagree, please give me the list of flights to the Garden of Eden, and I’m packing my bags right away.Ok, so your sin has the victory, not Christ.
Is that what I hear you saying?
It doesn’t matter what you decide to accept, you are going to suffer in this life. Everyone, without exception. Your accusation that God is holding out on you will not change this one bit.
Yes, I’m going to suffer in life. That’s proof God is holding out. That’s Romans 8:23 right there.
So, if saying God is holding out won’t help my suffering, what will? Tell me how to convince God to stop punishing me?
V
Vico
Guest
The supernatural gifts and the preternatural gifts, and Garden of Eden, were only given to Adam and Eve. Since they were not give to us we did not loose them: you cannot loose what you do not have. There were no rights involved since a gift does not imply rights.Correct. They lost their gifts because it was a punishment. We also lost those gifts because of the same punishment.
We were never destined to get them because we are being held responsible temporally for their sin. In fact, we are held temporally responsible for the sins of not just Adam and Eve, but also our ancestors.
The sanctifying grace they had was insufficient to overcome their imperfections, and that’s why they fell because they were imperfect.
There’s also another thing: You don’t think that Adam and Eve would have repented throughout their lifetime and been forgiven by God? Apparently not. Even ifthey were forgiven, there are still no flights to the Garden of Eden.
Christ’s victory on the Cross did not conquer temporal punishments we are being held responsible for. If you disagree, please give me the list of flights to the Garden of Eden, and I’m packing my bags right away.
Yes, I’m going to suffer in life. That’s proof God is holding out. That’s Romans 8:23 right there.
So, if saying God is holding out won’t help my suffering, what will? Tell me how to convince God to stop punishing me?
We do not receive them, but not through punishment for something that we did, therefore there is no*** real ***punishment for sin for us. This is an analogy.
The sanctifying grace they had was sufficient per Catholic dogma of faith, to overcome their imperfections, and they fell because they willfully chose to disobeyed.
B
BobCatholic
Guest
Hold on.The supernatural gifts and the preternatural gifts, and Garden of Eden, were only given to Adam and Eve.
When it comes to gifts, it was ONLY to Adam and Eve. When it comes to punishment, it is not ONLY to Adam and Eve. This sounds like a double standard.
Why is it that Adam is the head of the human race, and considered the representative, so therefore everyone else must be punished for their sin, but when it comes to gifts, that is ONLY for them and nobody else?
Why does God act that way? When it comes to pleasant things he’s stingy but unpleasant things he’s generous?
If they represent the human race, then this is wrong. If the representative gets the gift, so must the rest of humanity. Otherwise, we have a double standard.There were no rights involved since a gift does not imply rights.
There is most definitely a real punishment.We do not receive them, but not through punishment for something that we did, therefore there is no*** real ***punishment for sin for us. This is an analogy.
Adam and Eve did something wrong. God punished them. We have the same result, so we are punished too.
If that were true, they would never have fallen. But they fell- eventually - it was only a matter of time, so their imperfections were greater than the grace of God.The sanctifying grace they had was sufficient per Catholic dogma of faith, to overcome their imperfections, and they fell because they willfully chose to disobeyed.
Buggy software will crash, just give it time. Just as an imperfect person will sin, just a matter of time.
V
Vico
Guest
You are mixing types, real and analogical, which is causing it to seem illogical.Hold on.
When it comes to gifts, it was ONLY to Adam and Eve. When it comes to punishment, it is not ONLY to Adam and Eve. This sounds like a double standard.
Why is it that Adam is the head of the human race, and considered the representative, so therefore everyone else must be punished for their sin, but when it comes to gifts, that is ONLY for them and nobody else?
Why does God act that way? When it comes to pleasant things he’s stingy but unpleasant things he’s generous?
If they represent the human race, then this is wrong. If the representative gets the gift, so must the rest of humanity. Otherwise, we have a double standard.
There is most definitely a real punishment.
Adam and Eve did something wrong. God punished them. We have the same result, so we are punished too.
If that were true, they would never have fallen. But they fell- eventually - it was only a matter of time, so their imperfections were greater than the grace of God.
Buggy software will crash, just give it time. Just as an imperfect person will sin, just a matter of time.
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,
Question 87 Being Deserving of Punishment as an Effect of Sin
Article 7 Is every punishment because of some sin?
(Excerpt)
Nevertheless we must observe that sometimes a thing seems penal, and yet is not so simply. Because punishment is a species of evil, as stated in the I:48:5. Now evil is privation of good. And since man’s good is manifold, viz. good of the soul, good of the body, and external goods, it happens sometimes that man suffers the loss of a lesser good, that he may profit in a greater good, as when he suffers loss of money for the sake of bodily health, or loss of both of these, for the sake of his soul’s health and the glory of God. In such cases the loss is an evil to man, not simply but relatively; wherefore it does not answer to the name of punishment simply, but of medicinal punishment, because a medical man prescribes bitter potions to his patients, that he may restore them to health. And since such like are not punishments properly speaking, they are not referred to sin as their cause, except in a restricted sense: because the very fact that human nature needs a treatment of penal medicines, is due to the corruption of nature which is itself the punishment of original sin. For there was no need, in the state of innocence, for penal exercises in order to make progress in virtue; so that whatever is penal in the exercise of virtue, is reduced to original sin as its cause.
newadvent.org/summa/2087.htm
The fell because they willed it to be so. We are born with normal human natures, but not because we will it to be so.
B
BobCatholic
Guest
They fell because they were imperfect. Being imperfect, it was only a matter of time that they fell. Their wills were distorted and were not truly free.The fell because they willed it to be so. We are born with normal human natures, but not because we will it to be so.
They had the imperfections of stupidity, naivete, fear, and/or pride. I’m sure they had multiple imperfections.
We are born with “normal” natures because “normal” is a relative term based on the group, not an absolute term. If someone were in a mental institution, “normal” is insane.
I’m not interested in being “normal” - normal will get me to hell.
V
Vico
Guest
The Catholic Church teaches dogmatically that they fell through free will choice while having the capability to avoid mortal sin forever.They fell because they were imperfect. Being imperfect, it was only a matter of time that they fell. Their wills were distorted and were not truly free.
They had the imperfections of stupidity, naivete, fear, and/or pride. I’m sure they had multiple imperfections.
We are born with “normal” natures because “normal” is a relative term based on the group, not an absolute term. If someone were in a mental institution, “normal” is insane.
I’m not interested in being “normal” - normal will get me to hell.
B
BobCatholic
Guest
How did they have the capability to avoid mortal sin forever when they were not created perfect?The Catholic Church teaches dogmatically that they fell through free will choice while having the capability to avoid mortal sin forever.
And where does it say they had the capability to avoid mortal sin forever?
- Status
- Not open for further replies.