God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

[justasking4]

Emeraldisle, please answer the question.

Does a stillborn–or a newborn–sin?

Yes. . .or no.

It is such a simple and petty question. Why can’t you simply answer?

Romans 5:12 would apply here also…

 

[Gamera]

Romans 5:12 would apply here also…

Does that mean your answer would be “Yes?” What kind of sin would a baby have – original sin, personal sin, or both? The Catholic view is that the baby would have original sin but not any personal sin.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Have you noticed that emerald and JA are noteworthy for saying things like “Romans 5 covers this” but that they seem curiously unable to say something like, " Romans 5 indicates that stillborn babies have sinned" or “Romans 5 indicates that stillborn babies have not sinned.”

And when you call them out and say, 'Well, what do you think Romans 5 says about this", they answer, “Well, it says all have sinned.”

So you say, “Well, does that ‘all’ include stillborn babies, yes or no?”

And they respond, “It is quite clear that all have sinned.”

And we say, “All whom? All, including stillborn babies?”

And they say, “Romans 5 is quite clear. I have answered you over and over.”

The funny thing is, over and over, they will say, "All men have sinned. Mary is part of sinful humanity so she sinned’. . .but they have never, never been able to say, “Stillborn babies are part of sinful humanity so they sinned.”

Why is that, I wonder?

 

[VociMike]

Does that mean your answer would be “Yes?” What kind of sin would a baby have – original sin, personal sin, or both? The Catholic view is that the baby would have original sin but not any personal sin.

But Rom 5:12 is very explicit that that all have sinned. All have actually committed sin, not just that all are affected by Adam’s sin.

 

[Gamera]

But Rom 5:12 is very explicit that that all have sinned. All have actually committed sin, not just that all are affected by Adam’s sin.

That isn’t my reading of Rom. 5:12 at all. What personal sin could a baby commit?

 

[VociMike]

That isn’t my reading of Rom. 5:12 at all. What personal sin could a baby commit?

That’s exactly the question we’ve been asking for 340 posts now. The language is very clear: “all have sinned”. This can only mean personal sin, since none of us has “original sinned”. Our association with original sin is passive, but “all have sinned” is a statement of active behavior.

 

[as-a-child]

his written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word
His written word

i never want to hear this phrase again, I hate the idea of limiting DAD to 1272 pages.

Just a quick question : by what authority do translators translate.

An if the translation is so important what translation do you use emeraldisle?

 

[Pong]

But it says in His Word that is Not Spoken… ducks

 

[RNRobert]

Just a quick question : by what authority do translators translate.

An if the translation is so important what translation do you use emeraldisle?

And how does he know that translation is accurate?

 

[quami]

I think what you are missing in all of this is that without her yes we would not of been saved. No Mary = No Christ

I love our Blessed Mother as do most catholics who understand the churches stance on the dogma of the immaculate conception and will not stand that she is besmirched.

so again the point is not whether she is sinless (although she is both scripture and tradition state it) it is that without her we would not have been saved.

lastly answer this for me:

if scripture is the only thing needed to justify your stance then why is there 64000 bible only congregations that have conflicting views about doctrine (the only thing agreed on is sola scriptura and sola fide).

and yet there is one Catholic Church and you can speak to any INFORMED catholic anywhere around the world and still have the same answer - not just based on scripture that rightly is used to defend the faith - but also on traditions that so many have died for (the same traditions that passed down the Christian faith to you i might add).

i hasten to add that the person who introduced sola scripture (Luther) had a life long devotion to our Blessed Mother and believed what the Church teaches about CHRIST’S Mother.

I am for Mary and the role she plays in the church because Christ himself states “If you are against my Mother you are against me!”

Quami

 

[onenow1]

Hi, Again emeraldisle
Here’s the rub , from all eternity God knew all things and what he was going to do. Your insistance that Mary was either born with sin or commited sin, relying on one verse of scripture is ???

Here’s the problem emeraldisle, God gave us the ten commandments, and since God is always true to himself, would he not also as an example for us, honor His mother at all times from the beginning ? Angel Gabriel indeed implies this with the greeting Hail full of Grace, or if you prefer[Highly Favored.]

One more thing I don’t remember the verse but did’nt Jesus say I have not come to for the rightious ? What does this imply emeraldisle or do you have an opinion ?

There’s only one church that obeys the command in luke 1:44 that [all ]generations shall call me blessed and indeed it is the one Hoily Catholic and Apostolic Church. How do you interpert all in this verse ?

37 For with God nothing will be impossible."
38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
39 In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah,
40 and she entered the house of Zechari’ah and greeted Elizabeth.
41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit
42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.
45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.”
46 And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

Remember emeraldisle these are the words of the Lord.

Peace, OneNow1

 

[larry_m]

To anyone who can answer. I just want to be clear on this issue. Mary was sinless, as the Catholic Church states for the purpose of “original sin” not contaminating the Savior at birth? Also, does this mean that Mary was not only sinless, but she also had holy, unfallen flesh as Adam & Eve before the fall so as not to pass the hereditary fallen nature to the Savior? Thankyou for your CC’s official stance on these questions.

 

[larry_m]

[Angel Gabriel implies…greeting Hail full of grace]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but doesn’t th CC use this phrase from Gabriel in the Catholic doctrine, the Assumption of Mary? Even if this phrase is used for argument in the sinlessness of Mary, shouldn’t it be used for all believers as stated in Ephesians 1:6 since the exact same Greek term (charitoo) is used in both instances? Can’t have one without the other.

 

[VociMike]

To anyone who can answer. I just want to be clear on this issue. Mary was sinless, as the Catholic Church states for the purpose of “original sin” not contaminating the Savior at birth? Also, does this mean that Mary was not only sinless, but she also had holy, unfallen flesh as Adam & Eve before the fall so as not to pass the hereditary fallen nature to the Savior? Thankyou for your CC’s official stance on these questions.

No, the Church does not teach this reasoning AFAIK. She does teach the fact of Mary’s sinlessness, but not necessarily this reasoning behind the fact.

 

[VociMike]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but doesn’t th CC use this phrase from Gabriel in the Catholic doctrine, the Assumption of Mary? Even if this phrase is used for argument in the sinlessness of Mary, shouldn’t it be used for all believers as stated in Ephesians 1:6 since the exact same Greek term (charitoo) is used in both instances? Can’t have one without the other.

Nope, apples and oranges. From members.aol.com/johnprh/conception.html

Some who oppose the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception have attempted to argue that the use of the verb “charitoo” in Luke 1:28 says nothing special about Mary since this same verb, although in a different form, is used to refer to all Christians in Ephesians 1:6.

However, Luke 1:28 uses a special conjugated form of “charitoo.” It uses “kecharitomene,” while Ephesians 1:6 uses “echaritosen,” which is a different form of the verb “charitoo.” Echaritosen means "he graced (bestowed grace.) Echaritosen signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass. (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p.166.) Whereas, Kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a with permanent result. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1968 ) 108-109, sec 1852:b also Blass and DeBrunner p.175.

 

[larry_m]

…Church doesn’t teach this reasoning]

I need to know the reasoning behind this doctrine. If anyone can help, I would appreciate it. Need official CC stand on reason. Thankyou. The reason of "original sin’ doesn’t quite explain if it has nothing to do with the human nature of our Savior.

 

[VociMike]

I need to know the reasoning behind this doctrine. If anyone can help, I would appreciate it. Need official CC stand on reason. Thankyou. The reason of "original sin’ doesn’t quite explain if it has nothing to do with the human nature of our Savior.

You’re insisting that God provide a reason for doing something. Well, sometimes he gives his reasons and sometimes he doesn’t.

As I have pointed out earlier in this thread, the Church does suggest in the Catechism (from Lumen Gentium?) that Mary had to be completely without sin in order to have perfect free will with which to respond to God’s request of her. Makes sense to me.

 

[larry_m]

…apples & oranges]

Thanks Mike for the Greek lesson. My question is, how does this prove the sinlessness of Mary? Why didn’t the writers use the same language they did for the perfect sinlessness of our Savior? It is beyond very vague for Mary. It seems that the interpretation takes alot of free expression on mans part to come up with Marys sinlessness from just this phrase. If you keep it in context, it has nothing to do with being sinless. From Eve to Mary, all believing woman were hoping to be the one to be the progenitor of the Messiah. Thanks for your replies.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I need to know the reasoning behind this doctrine. If anyone can help, I would appreciate it. Need official CC stand on reason. Thankyou. The reason of "original sin’ doesn’t quite explain if it has nothing to do with the human nature of our Savior.

Why not read the dogmatic proclamation: Ineffabilis Deus

Supreme Reason for the Privilege: The Divine Maternity

And indeed it was wholly fitting that so wonderful a mother should be ever resplendent with the glory of most sublime holiness and so completely free from all taint of original sin that she would triumph utterly over the ancient serpent. To her did the Father will to give his only-begotten Son – the Son whom, equal to the Father and begotten by him, the Father loves from his heart – and to give this Son in such a way that he would be the one and the same common Son of God the Father and of the Blessed Virgin Mary. It was she whom the Son himself chose to make his Mother and it was from her that the Holy Spirit willed and brought it about that he should be conceived and born from whom he himself proceeds.

 

[larry_m]

[Your insisting that God have a reason…]

Well I don’t know about you, but the One I worship is not arbitrary nor a respecter of persons. What does being sinless have to do with free will? Because we are sinners we don’t have free will? I guess we are just a bunch of automatons with no mind to choose. Goes against, “Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me & my house, we choose Elohim (God).” Kind of a far stretch to prove the sinlessness of Mary. Thanks for your replies.