Hell

[thistle]

A simple yes or no is impossible since God did not give me a reason or even tell me what to say.

I was told in a dream that I “knew” was from God, whether it was God or someone else, I do not know, I was simply told that “Only I could say it”, of course the words were “Only you can say it”.

I wasn’t told just what the “it” was/is but as I have said quite a few times, God Is a Being of Love as opposed to Love being an attribute of God and absolutely everything flows from this “fact”, so to speak.

I am not even sure if these are the exact words but they do transmit the meaning.

But you do understand that if you say anything that contradicts Church teaching then it is you who is wrong and not the Church!!??

 

[thistle]

The other post was getting kind of big and then I noticed I didn’t say anything about this.

One thing about “sinning” is that some, not all, sinners seem to not be as judgmental toward others as some “sinners” that seem to think of themself as just little sinners, as in their sins as not as “big” as others.

I think that it is better for one to attempt to live their life rather than to try and live other people’s lives for them.

I think it is better to learn from our sins and Jesus did seem to have a soft spot in His Heart for sinners rather than those that were self-righteous in their own eyes.

I have never met anyone personally that has never sinned, I might not know their sin but I have a sneaking suspicion that they have sinned.

As far as, “do you believe that it is better not to sin rather than to sin?”, sure it is better to not sin, just as it is better to follow the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law but are any of us actually PERFECT,** I’m not and I, for one, am hoping for and counting on God’s Mercy, not just for me but for everyone**.

God’s mercy is available to all of us if we repent and ask for mercy PRIOR to death.
Once we are dead it is too late.

 

[Tom_Baum]

God’s mercy is available to all of us if we repent and ask for mercy PRIOR to death.
Once we are dead it is too late.

I think I will leave Judgement and all aspects of Judgement in God’s Hands since God Is God and I am not God.

I intend to sit down in the Mercy seat, so to speak, since I trust in God’s Mercy and I am counting on God’s Mercy and I thank God for God’s Mercy.

 

[Tom_Baum]

But you do understand that if you say anything that contradicts Church teaching then it is you who is wrong and not the Church!!??

By meeting Dad, God the Father, I know that what I was taught in 2nd grade that “God Is Love” is quite literal in that Love is God’s Very Being, Love is not an attribute of God.

When I met the Holy Spirit, it was revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist Is Jesus so I “know” this is true as opposed to just believing it.

I don’t know a lot but I do know a little and even tho some seem to think that (believe and know) mean the same thing, they do not.

I understand that it is up to God to choose whomever God chooses for whatever God chooses that person for and I am counting on God to see me thru what God chose me to do.

God’s Plan is catholic (small c intended).

 

[thistle]

I think I will leave Judgement and all aspects of Judgement in God’s Hands since God Is God and I am not God.

I intend to sit down in the Mercy seat, so to speak, since I trust in God’s Mercy and I am counting on God’s Mercy and I thank God for God’s Mercy.

You didn’t actually answer my question.

You are a Catholic. Christ established the Catholic Church and gave it authority to loose and bind and what is bound on earth is bound in Heaven. The Church teaches infallibly with the authority of God that when you die in a state of mortal sin you go immediately to Hell and that there is no chance to repent and ask for God’s mercy after you are dead.
If reject that teaching or have an obstinate doubt about that then that is heresy.
If a Church teaching was in error or God overturns that teaching after a person has died then it would mean God had lied to Peter. Do you really think God lies?
Whatever you feel or think you know, if it contradicts the Church teachings then it is from Satan and not God!

 

[Amandil]

I have never raised any children and I don’t know if I have any.

Since you are a parent and as you said, “And it has over the years taught me and given me tremendous perspective regarding Fatherhood in general.”, doesn’t it seem way past cruel to punish someone for ever and ever and …, and then speak about how wonderful and kind and merciful this being is especially taking into consideration that this being knew before this someone was even created by this being that this is where this someone would be?

No. You clearly don’t understand what hell is and why it exists.

You assume that it was created to specifically “punish” or “discipline” people. You’re wrong.

As far as “This whole discussion has been about you and your opinions.”, actually some of it has been about what God has revealed to me and as far as any of that, that you will have to take up with God.

I don’t think God “revealed” anything to you. What you heard is “God is love”, you then twisted it into this idea of universal salvation based upon your false idea of what love is.

And as far as, "Yet you’re silent on a very simple question like “do you have children? " It simply doesn’t make sense.”, as I said this is about God not me but as a parent, do you think that any discipline (punishment, rightly deserved and justifiable) that you use on any of your children should last forever???

I, personally, believe that it is a form of child abuse to not discipline a child and every child needs different discipline, not a one size fits all, that said, I do not believe that any parent should discipline their child for ever and ever and ever and any god that would, I can not see how anyone can say that that god is so merciful, so kind, so good, yet you seem to think and applaud this, do you or don’t you?

Hell isn’t specifically for the punishment or discipline. Punishment and/or discipline has a purpose, its purpose is remedial.

Hell is not God sending His children to their room for being “bad”. Hell is God’s children suing their Father for emancipation from Him and His household because they don’t want to live by His rule.

You can believe all that you want concerning what others say that you should believe but don’t you think about these things or do you just repeat what the doctrine or dogma is?

Not only is this a rather crass and ignorant rhetorical question, you also implicitly claim that there is some dichotomy between Christ and His Church. That’s something that you normally hear from a protestant, not a professed “Catholic”.

This is a scenario that I thought of quite a while ago: Imagine that you kick the bucket and you wake up in heaven and it is way better and way beyond your wildest dreams and you are just basking in all of this and you happen to look down and see your mother or your father, your husband or your wife, your sister or your brother, your son or your daughter, or your best friend in hell, how heavenly would this be then?

Another absurd question. You’re asking if God’s joy, or the joy of the blessed, can be blackmailed by the knowledge of someone they loved in hell.

The answer is no. Because, as Scripture plainly tells us, “then”(in heaven) we shall know as we are known. We will know joy as God knows joy.

It’s like having a spouse that you have been with for 20, 30, 50, or 70 years all of a sudden come to you and say to you, “I’ve been seeing and been committing adultery with other people the entire time I’ve been married to you.” "Aside from the immediate feelings of anger and guilt and betrayal there is also this one firm belief: “I never knew you.”

Which is precisely what Jesus says in His parables in regards to people who refuse Him," depart from me…I never knew you."

Those in hell won’t be persons, they’ve abandoned any and all personal identity, therefore we won’t even recognize them. To use an analogy, they won’t even resemble the wood, instead they’ll be more like ashes, or remains, not persons.

Things do NOT have to be theologically kosher for one to ponder, ponder this scenario and may your heart not be cold as ice and hard as a stone.

The problem isn’t my “supposed” hard hart, Tom. The problem is your soft head. You can’t compromise the truth to make your theory of “love” fit so that its agreeable to your sensibilities.

Love only “works” when it is true. If God was love in your sense then it was foolish for God to send His Son to die a horrific scourging and death and the hands of the ones He came to save.

If God is “love” in your sense of it then there was no reason for Jesus to come at all. God could have just “saved” everyone without Calvary at the snap of His anthropomorphic finger.

So, yes, things HAVE to be theologically kosher to ponder any scenario regarding God because that’s what theology is: the study of God.

If something is not “theologically kosher” then that something-in this case your opinion of universal salvation-is wrong. You can base your opinion upon an incomplete idea of love and ignore the other half of the data because its not agreeable to you.

To say that has nothing to do with the state of someone’s heart, its just stating a truth.

 

[Amandil]

As far as, “do you believe that it is better not to sin rather than to sin?”, sure it is better to not sin, just as it is better to follow the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law but are any of us actually PERFECT, I’m not and I, for one, am hoping for and counting on God’s Mercy, not just for me but for everyone.

But why is it better not to sin if “all are saved”?

If I’m going to saved regardless of how I live my life or whether or not I ask for God’s forgiveness, then there’s really no reason why I shouldn’t be able to live however I want.

 

[Amandil]

I think I will leave Judgement and all aspects of Judgement in God’s Hands since God Is God and I am not God.

But what “judgement” is that? According to you there really is no “judgement” because according to you “all are saved.”

I intend to sit down in the Mercy seat, so to speak, since I trust in God’s Mercy and I am counting on God’s Mercy and I thank God for God’s Mercy.

But why are you “counting on God’s mercy” or “trusting in God’s mercy”? You’re salvation is automatic. There’s nothing to “hope” for. Because, according to you, its an undeniable fact that “all are saved”.

Why the need to trust or hope in something that you already know that you have?

 

[bedan_elite]

You didn’t actually answer my question.

You are a Catholic. Christ established the Catholic Church and gave it authority to loose and bind and what is bound on earth is bound in Heaven. The Church teaches infallibly with the authority of God that when you die in a state of mortal sin you go immediately to Hell and that there is no chance to repent and ask for God’s mercy after you are dead.
If reject that teaching or have an obstinate doubt about that then that is heresy.
If a Church teaching was in error or God overturns that teaching after a person has died then it would mean God had lied to Peter. Do you really think God lies?
Whatever you feel or think you know, if it contradicts the Church teachings then it is from Satan and not God!

Hi Thistle : During my university years, I met this father & daughter team who claimed the spirit of god and the Blessed Virgin enters their body. I was so gullible to believe them because they have powers that ordinary people do not possess like mind reading, fortune telling etc. When a spirit enters them, they speak a different language that only the 2 of them can understand. You’ve heard of Mt. Banahaw? Yeah, we went there one holy week. We hiked up to a cave where there was another group whom we didn’t know and had a leader who is also being possessed by a spirit. While the other leader was in a trance, our leader walked in front of her to light a candle in the altar and the followers of the other group thought that was disrespectful to their leader and they expressed their displeasure. Our leader got upset and the father and daughter team started talking among themselves in a different language. Suddenly, the leader of the other group came up to our leader, knelt and wept in front of him then they talked in the same language that only them could understand. Weird huh? What kind of spirits possess them??? Definitely it’s not God. I realized the grave error I committed, went to confession and afterwards attended the Easter vigil…

 

[Tom_Baum]

But why is it better not to sin if “all are saved”?

If I’m going to saved regardless of how I live my life or whether or not I ask for God’s forgiveness, then there’s really no reason why I shouldn’t be able to live however I want.

Do you find something wrong with doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do?

“Fear of the Lord” has absolutely nothing to do with being afraid of God.

Do you think that punishment is only punishment if there is no end to that punishment?

Could be that when Jesus said, “Ask and you shall receive”, He was hoping for us to ask for something worth asking for.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Do you find something wrong with doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do?

“Fear of the Lord” has absolutely nothing to do with being afraid of God.

Do you think that punishment is only punishment if there is no end to that punishment?

Could be that when Jesus said, “Ask and you shall receive”, He was hoping for us to ask for something worth asking for.

He wrote much more in response to you. Could you please answer all of his points?

 

[Tom_Baum]

But what “judgement” is that? According to you there really is no “judgement” because according to you “all are saved.”

But why are you “counting on God’s mercy” or “trusting in God’s mercy”? You’re salvation is automatic. There’s nothing to “hope” for. Because, according to you, its an undeniable fact that “all are saved”.

Why the need to trust or hope in something that you already know that you have?

On the contrary, we will ALL go thru Judgement.

I am not the only one that I am “trusting in God’s Mercy” for.

I have a catholic hope as opposed to just hope for me.

You asked, “Why the need to trust or hope in something that you already know that you have?”

Maybe God wants, not needs, someone or someones to hope and trust in God’s Mercy.

 

[bedan_elite]

Do you find something wrong with doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do?

“Fear of the Lord” has absolutely nothing to do with being afraid of God.

Do you think that punishment is only punishment if there is no end to that punishment?

Could be that when Jesus said, “Ask and you shall receive”, He was hoping for us to ask for something worth asking for.

Wow…wow… Tom Baum, no offence but some of your post are pretty scary and dark

 

[Amandil]

Do you find something wrong with doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do?

Never said that I did.

But according to your opinion “all are saved”. So why should anyone do the “right” thing and rather just do as they please.

Why shouldn’t someone reject God if they want if God’s going to save them anyway?

Why shouldn’t someone murder their spouse or their families if God is going to save them anyway?

Why shouldn’t someone rape women or children if God is going to save them anyway?

Why shouldn’t anyone do anything that gives them pleasure, no matter how sinful, without any repentance, without any conversion of mind and heart, if God is going to save them anyway?

“Fear of the Lord” has absolutely nothing to do with being afraid of God.

Quote me where I said that it did?

Do you think that punishment is only punishment if there is no end to that punishment?

Quote me where I said that it was.

Or, instead, why don’t you go back and read what I actually said instead of putting your own spin on it.

Could be that when Jesus said, “Ask and you shall receive”, He was hoping for us to ask for something worth asking for.

That’s not the issue here. You’re insisting that people will receive (salvation) without even asking.

 

[Amandil]

On the contrary, we will ALL go thru Judgement.

That’s not what you asserted before.

You seemed rather to say that all have already been judged (I.e. saved). Therefore the judgement has already taken place.

Unless you’re now contradicting yourself?

I am not the only one that I am “trusting in God’s Mercy” for.

I never said that you were.

What I asked was why the need to trust at all since you’re going to be saved whether you trust or don’t trust?

You asked, “Why the need to trust or hope in something that you already know that you have?”

Maybe God wants, not needs, someone or someones to hope and trust in God’s Mercy.

You apparently still don’t understand. According to you, God has already given not only you but everyone eternity in heaven.

You may feel like its a good thing to trust and hope in God(which is good).

You can even have the opinion that God wants us to trust and hope in Him (because I also have faith in God and hope for salvation, but the reasons for MY trust and hope are much more objective and based upon what’s actually true).

When you say “all are saved”, as you have continued to insist this entire time, you’re also saying that trusting and hoping in God is not really essential to whether or not we’re saved, that God saves all regardless of whether He wants them to trust Him or not, and regardless of whether they trust and hope in Him or not.

You’re saying that there is no obligation to trust and hope in God. And that there is no objective consequence for NOT trusting or NOT hoping in God.

So, what objective reason can you give anyone to trust or hope in God who doesn’t want to nor sees any need to?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Wow…wow… Tom Baum, no offence but some of your post are pretty scary and dark

Why do you say that?

 

[MacQ]

Why do you say that?

I’m wondering the same…what was scary and dark about that?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Never said that I did.

But according to your opinion “all are saved”. So why should anyone do the “right” thing and rather just do as they please.

Why shouldn’t someone reject God if they want if God’s going to save them anyway?

Why shouldn’t someone murder their spouse or their families if God is going to save them anyway?

Why shouldn’t someone rape women or children if God is going to save them anyway?

Why shouldn’t anyone do anything that gives them pleasure, no matter how sinful, without any repentance, without any conversion of mind and heart, if God is going to save them anyway? .

Maybe because they had a “conversion of mind and heart”.

Quote me where I said that it did?

Quote me where I said that it was.

In response to ““Fear of the Lord” has absolutely nothing to do with being afraid of God.” and “Do you think that punishment is only punishment if there is no end to that punishment?”

I wrote about the meaning of “Fear of the Lord”, I didn’t say that you said it, but when I think of an Omniscient Being that made so many, knowing that they would be in agony, beyond anything you could imagine, forever then that is what I would think of a God such as that, that is why I pointed out what “Fear of the Lord”, did not mean.

I think of “hell” as God’s Way of a “punishment fitting the crime” (Divine Justice), so to speak, since it is custom made by its inhabitant but not if it is forever.

Or, instead, why don’t you go back and read what I actually said instead of putting your own spin on it.

That’s not the issue here. You’re insisting that people will receive (salvation) without even asking.

I have read what you have written and I am not actually putting my “own spin on it” unless by that you mean commenting.

I have been told that only I could say it, so I am attempting to say it with God’s help since I know that I can not do it alone and as far as “You’re insisting that people will receive (salvation) without even asking”, I didn’t say that, you are reading more into what I say that what I actually say, what I said was that Jesus died for All by His Work on the cross and that, ultimately, the Good News truly is Good News for ALL and that only God knows “all of the details”.

 

[MacQ]

Wow…wow… Tom Baum, no offence but some of your post are pretty scary and dark

He posted:
**Do you find something wrong with doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do?

“Fear of the Lord” has absolutely nothing to do with being afraid of God.

Do you think that punishment is only punishment if there is no end to that punishment?

Could be that when Jesus said, “Ask and you shall receive”, He was hoping for us to ask for something worth asking for.**

What’s scary or dark?

 

[Tom_Baum]

That’s not what you asserted before.

You seemed rather to say that all have already been judged (I.e. saved). Therefore the judgement has already taken place.

Unless you’re now contradicting yourself?

I have said that, ULTIMATELY, All are saved and that only God knows all of the “details”.

I never said that you were.

What I asked was why the need to trust at all since you’re going to be saved whether you trust or don’t trust?

You apparently still don’t understand. According to you, God has already given not only you but everyone eternity in heaven.

You may feel like its a good thing to trust and hope in God(which is good).

You can even have the opinion that God wants us to trust and hope in Him (because I also have faith in God and hope for salvation, but the reasons for MY trust and hope are much more objective and based upon what’s actually true).

When you say “all are saved”, as you have continued to insist this entire time, you’re also saying that trusting and hoping in God is not really essential to whether or not we’re saved, that God saves all regardless of whether He wants them to trust Him or not, and regardless of whether they trust and hope in Him or not.

You’re saying that there is no obligation to trust and hope in God. And that there is no objective consequence for NOT trusting or NOT hoping in God.

So, what objective reason can you give anyone to trust or hope in God who doesn’t want to nor sees any need to?

Do you think that Christianity is about you getting to the “good place”?

Or do you think that Christianity might be about God and man working in concert for the Salvation of ALL?

Jesus did extend the invitation to, “Come follow Me”.

Jesus also said that there was “work to be done”.

Salvation is a “work in progress” and it is NOT just for the individual, it is for the individual AND all.