How Do You Understand Church Teaching About Our Blessed Mother?

[JM3]

how would you interpret this
Pat

1. It is not up to us to interpret Church documents, just as it is not proper to self interpret the bible.
2. Personal devotion has many levels and one must not force-feed a whole steak to a child. By accepting the dogmas that the Church has declared about the Blessed Virgin Mary, the minimum personal devotion is achieved.

CCC 24 Whoever teaches must become “all things to all men” (1 Cor 9:22), to win everyone to Christ. . . . Above all, teachers must not imagine that a single kind of soul has been entrusted to them, and that consequently it is lawful to teach and form equally all the faithful in true piety with one and the same method! Let them realize that some are in Christ as newborn babes, others as adolescents, and still others as adults in full command of their powers. . . . Those who are called to the ministry of preaching must suit their words to the maturity and understanding of their hearers, as they hand on the teaching of the mysteries of faith and the rules of moral conduct.18

3)The removal of “Co-redemptrix” from Lumen Gentium was from a theological subcommittee: “Omissae sunt expressions et vocabula qua edam a Summis Pontificibus adhibita, quae, licet in se verissima, possent difficilius intelligi a fratribus separatis (in casu protestantibus). Inter alia vocabula adnumerari queunt sequentiai:‘Corredemptrix humani generis’ [S. Pius X, Pius XI] …”
(english translation: “Certain expressions and words used by Supreme Pontiffs have been omitted, which, in themselves are absolutely true, but which may be understood with difficulty by separated brethren (in this case, Protestants). Among such words may be numbered the following:‘Co-redemptrix of the human race’ [Pius X, Pius XI] …”

The Church is in a period of ecumenism and it is our duty to obey, as the Blessed Virgin obeyed.

Just be happy that the definition of Co-redemptrix made it into Lumen Gentium.

 

[pensmama87]

Do tell, that’s why I’m here. I have read a lot on early Jewish culture. That’s not to say I haven’t “missed” something critical to understanding, just that I at least may be able to make intelligible your information. I do love wisdom and correct correction. Blessings to you.

Mary, Mother of the Son is an excellent resource. The link is to volume one of three. The books themselves are fairly inexpensive, or you may even be able to find them in your local library or in a Catholic parish library if there is one near you.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Dear (name removed by moderator),

I don’t know what you are referring to, and I want to stay on topic and always be very respectful of one another and of our Blessed Mother and her Son rather than discuss other poster.

As I recall, and as I understand it, the disagreement on this particular thread–and again, I’m not referring to specific posters–was about the claim that personally loving Mary is categorically unnecessary for salvation.

Because Mary is the Mother of God, the Reparatrix of the world, and the Mother of each human person, I disagree with that claim (that personal devotion to her is not necessary), though I understand the concepts of invincible ignorance and psychological impediments and don’t condemn anyone, least of all those who haven’t been blessed with the opportunity to develop an explicit and conscious love for their Blessed Mother.

Peace of Jesus Christ,

Pat

You profess, remarkably, not to know what is being referred to? I will happily explain:

1. You faithlessly – and culpably – misrepresent the teachings of the Church.
2. You dishonour the Blessed Virgin in your method of proceeding.
3. You clearly demonstrate a failure to submit yourself to the hierarchy of the Church

As for remaining or not on the topic of the thread, the question you posed was “How do you understand Church teaching about Our Blessed Mother?”

The answer from this professor of theology who specialised in this subfield about how your question applies to you is the following:

1. You do not understand the Church’s teaching on Mary…seemingly even remotely.
2. The methodology of infuriating your interlocutors by warping the methods and tools taken from the premises of “communication in conflict,” rather than built bridges as it is intended and does for those who have effectively studied it, has burned bridges in your regard…because you have failed to use it correctly
3. The problem is not that people on this thread are lacking in their understanding of Mary and her role in salvation history – the problem is that you have grotesquely misrepresented it and have reached the stage of being culpably guilty for the errors you have advanced…contumaciously.

Understand that if you were in seminary, engaging in this behaviour, you would be expelled.

Manipulation is a very bad ploy to use in the service of the Mother of Jesus.

If you are a disciple of Louis de Montfort, which I am more and more doubting given the way you are behaving, you might consider that he would have you act with the dispositions of the Blessed Virgin. Manipulation is not one of them.

You demonstrate, by your behaviour, that you are in severe need of help.

 

[setarcos]

It’s LATIN, not latten.
Read some good Catholic books. Particularly the one Exiled Child recommended.

Lol, thank you so much for the correction. I knew that, I don’t know why the computer auto corrects to two tt’s? I will look into the books suggested. In the mean time would you care to comment on the post I made?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Dear Deacon Jeff ((name removed by moderator)),

I believe the quotations I’ve provided are from Encylicals or Apostolic Constitutions of the Popes.

You are saying that that documents and nothing in them are expressions of the teaching authority (Magisterium) of the Church?

I’m glad if you will respectfully show me, using the Catechism or other clear evidence, how I am confused.

As it is, I take very seriously what Popes like Pope St. Pius 10th and Pope St. John Paul II teach about the Mother of God, our Mother.

For example, when Pope St. Pius 9th says in his Apostolic Constitution on the Immaculate Conception, that Mary “approaches as near to God as is possible for a created being”, and other Popes also reiterate the incomparable union between the Coredemptrix and the Trinity… I don’t see how we could freely, knowingly neglect a loving relationship with our Mother and still be in union with her Divine Son.

And if people won’t answer my questions about how they interpret such documents, I tend to think that we all need to pray more deeply for understanding of the mystery of our Mother, the Mother of God.

Peace of Jesus Christ,

Pat

By this answer, you demonstrate two things:

• A complete and utter lack of understanding of how theology actually works.
• A will and a mindset that is not open to learning.

Pius IX is not canonised.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

As already stated, I wont read posts with quotes. (Unless the quoter is expert in the field being quoted). This is because the poor humble quote, the blood , sweat and, tears of a wordsworth, is drowning in erroneous spume. Alas.

Thank you for enriching my English vocabulary. This word is most apt.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

**You know, this circular argument of your is extremely annoying. **

Stop acting and posting like people are in agreement with you.
THEY ARE NOT.

You are spreading and promoting false information under the premise of “a dead Pope said this eons ago, so MY PERSONAL OPINION must be correct.”

The Pope didn’t write that so you could use his quote to support your arguments.
You’ve had Master Catechists, Theology degreed people, LEM’s, Deacons, and a priest, Seminary Professor in Mariology and theologian (from ROME no less!!!) tell you that you are wrong.

Stop it.

If you love Our Lady as you so vehemently & repeatedly profess, STOP IT.

This kind of nonsense ***does not honor her, nor does it honor her beloved Son. ***

This person has chosen to set himself on a path of self-destruction…theologically and ecclesiologically. That is truly pitiable.

The positive is that people who will find this thread and read it will at least understand that what this person, in their theologically illiteracy, keeps asserting is actually firmly rejected – thus demonstrating for those who are open to seeing that what he keeps asserting is, in fact, wrong…in the extreme

 

[patricius79]

1. It is not up to us to interpret Church documents, just as it is not proper to self interpret the bible.
2. Personal devotion has many levels and one must not force-feed a whole steak to a child. By accepting the dogmas that the Church has declared about the Blessed Virgin Mary, the minimum personal devotion is achieved.

CCC 24 Whoever teaches must become “all things to all men” (1 Cor 9:22), to win everyone to Christ. . . . Above all, teachers must not imagine that a single kind of soul has been entrusted to them, and that consequently it is lawful to teach and form equally all the faithful in true piety with one and the same method! Let them realize that some are in Christ as newborn babes, others as adolescents, and still others as adults in full command of their powers. . . . Those who are called to the ministry of preaching must suit their words to the maturity and understanding of their hearers, as they hand on the teaching of the mysteries of faith and the rules of moral conduct.18

3)The removal of “Co-redemptrix” from Lumen Gentium was from a theological subcommittee: …
(english translation: “Certain expressions and words used by Supreme Pontiffs have been omitted, which, in themselves are absolutely true, but which may be understood with difficulty by separated brethren (in this case, Protestants). Among such words may be numbered the following:‘Co-redemptrix of the human race’ [Pius X, Pius XI] …”

The Church is in a period of ecumenism and it is our duty to obey, as the Blessed Virgin obeyed.

Just be happy that the definition of Co-redemptrix made it into Lumen Gentium.

Dear brother, JM3,

I’m praying about what you are saying. Of course I agree that we as individuals are not the authoritative interpreters of anything. But I think it can be good to try to understand what the official teaching of the Church is. Otherwise the Church would not provide us with the Catechism or present Encyclicals, right?

As far as meeting people where they are at, I’ll keep praying about that. Thank you.

As far as Mary’s role in our redemption… what I hear you saying is that Vatican II taught that we should not use that term.

Of course Lumen Gentium does not say that, but does say that we should (I’m trying to remember the exact language) avoid anything in word or deed that would lead the separated brethren into error about the true doctrine of the Church.

You are saying that they are thinking of the term “Coredemptrix”, which–although absolutely true–is understood with difficulty by separated brethren?

Vatican II also told preachers to avoid both “gross exaggeration” and “petty narrowmindedness” regarding the Blessed Mother.

I’m wondering what they meant by “gross exaggeration”.

Thanks for any help, Peace of Jesus Christ,

Pat

 

[setarcos]

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to make you think I thought the word “woman” was itself a disrespectful address to women in general in that culture. I am aware of the abuses of describing it as such. I am merely saying that while the Greek form of the word would have been a polite mode of address having no tone of contempt or irritation for women in general, it would have been unusual and far from warm when addressing ones own mother as would the Aramaic equivalent. In the Jewish culture of the time sons typically addressed their mothers as mother. Ee-mah in Hebrew for instance. A title of respect for her status in the familial relationship. It is curious Jesus did not. Augustine himself concedes a mystery in Christ’s attitude to Mary. I am also aware of the structure of the extended families of these ancient Jewish cultures. At least to the extent of what I have read about ancient Jewish culture. The extent of extension in these caravans does not preclude a Jewish mother from the immediate care and concern of her own children within this “extension” of families in these caravans. That you believe Jesus to be her only son should have made this even more so concerning Mary. That Mary would not have made sure the family left together when departing is not in and of itself a reflection of her being indifferent towards Jesus but it certainly shows no evidence for closeness. That it took three days for her to find him and Jesus’s wonderment at their ignorance of his whereabouts is though, a testament to them not being close, showing her cluelessness as to his mission and who he was. The temple was literally one of the last places they thought to look.
God persuade you to be kind in your responses to me. I am aware of how touchy a subject this is.
Blessings

 

[setarcos]

Mary, Mother of the Son is an excellent resource. The link is to volume one of three. The books themselves are fairly inexpensive, or you may even be able to find them in your local library or in a Catholic parish library if there is one near you.

Thank you so much for the reference. I will look into it. Meanwhile would you care to share some of the knowledge you’ve retained from these books in answer to my postings? I would love to hear your thoughts.
May you always have the rich tan of the son on your face.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Dear Oneofthewomen,

I don’t think we want to go too fast or sound like we’re interrogating with too many questions/accusations. I’m just doing my best as a simple, uneducated Catholic, to learn what I can.

If I’m taking something out of context, maybe you could give an example of where I’m going into a mistake.

I think it’s good to answer one another’s questions and respectfully share our ideas so as to help one another understand the mystery of the New Adam and the New Eve better.

I had asked how you interpret the statement of Pope St… Pius the 10th /…/

I didn’t see an answer. Would you be able to answer that question?

As the Deacon said, you repeatedly demonstrate a level of theological ignorance that is stunningly breath-taking.

Even your categories are complete distortions of theological methodology.

After five threads, most of which have been pulled, I think those who are astute in both the mind of the Church and the methodology of the Church that have commented on this thread have quite understood the ploys and manipulations that you are using, which is simply going to produce more and more of the spume of your erroneous conclusions.

I am very sorry for you. I do hope you manage to find the help you so evidently need.

It will take a grace of self-knowledge and of self-awareness and of conversion…and of openness.

May God, in His goodness, help you.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Do you know what the Encyclical you are quoting from is about?
Have you read the Vatican II documents regarding Mary?
Do you understand how to read papal documents?
You cannot just cherry pick quotes that you seem to think prove your point,
You must read the documents in the light of to whom they are written, and what they are addressing.

Unless and until you are willing to learn, nothing you say is going to matter.
What you need to do is stop spreading false information based on your “understanding”.
Your understanding is deeply flawed. Please get help from someone who has the knowledge you are so sorely lacking.

:sad_yes:

As a commentary on what you say, I would simply add for the benefit of others who may read this thread that it is important to understand the context in order to be able to properly situate, theologically, what the Church is teaching.

Using the example of the Sacred Scripture, it is from many diverse elements, contained within it, that the Magisterium articulates after centuries of reflection, contemplation, and theological consideration, what is her faith in the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Trinity as well as in all the consequences and achievements that flow therefrom.

 

[patricius79]

You profess, remarkably, not to know what is being referred to? I will happily explain:

1. You faithlessly – and culpably – misrepresent the teachings of the Church.
   …

If you are a disciple of Louis de Montfort, which I am more and more doubting given the way you are behaving, you might consider that he would have you act with the dispositions of the Blessed Virgin. Manipulation is not one of them.

You demonstrate, by your behaviour, that you are in severe need of help.

Dear Father Ruggero,

Clearly you believe I am in grave error regarding Our Lady

. Would you, as a professor of theology, pick an area pertinent to Mariology where you believe I am most in error, and–charitably and slowly show me, from authoritative sources, what I need to learn about our Blessed Mother?

As far as St. Louis De Montfort: I know he teaches that devotion to Mary is necessary for salvation. As I understand it, Pope St.JPII specifically and uniquely approves De Montfort’s Marian spirituality in Redemptoris Mater.

As far as Pius 9th, yes, I mis-typed. He is considered “of holy memory” as I understand it, but is not canonized.

Again, thank you for your help and for your patience as a priest and teacher.

Peace of Jesus Christ,

Pat

 

[Tomyris]

This person has chosen to set himself on a path of self-destruction…theologically and ecclesiologically. That is truly pitiable.

The positive is that people who will find this thread and read it will at least understand that what this person, in their theologically illiteracy, keeps asserting is actually firmly rejected – thus demonstrating for those who are open to seeing that what he keeps asserting is, in fact, wrong…in the extreme

I see that the Catholic Church rejects his Mariology, his approach and his conduct. He however only defends these three things, to his peril.

 

[Tomyris]

patricius79,

I am considering that you simply do not know what to do.

1. Post something like this:

Father Ruggero, I have sinned gravely. I do not know or understand how, but I will seek out my priest immediately and discuss this with him. I ask your forgiveness and that of everyone who has read my posts.

As part of a demonstration of my intent to change, I will not post anything online concerning this subject until my priest or spiritual advisor he assigns allows me to.

1. Don’t post anything on line about Mary for at least one year.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Dear Father Ruggero,

Clearly you believe I am in grave error regarding Our Lady

It is not a matter of belief that you are in grave error.

It is a matter of having determined that you are, and as a statement of fact, propagating error. Therein lies a distinction.

As far as St. Louis De Montfort: I know he teaches that devotion to Mary is necessary for salvation. As I understand it, Pope St.JPII specifically and uniquely approves De Montfort’s Marian spirituality in Redemptoris Mater.

And there again, you show how utterly profound is your misunderstanding.

As far as Pius 9th, yes, I mis-typed. He is considered “of holy memory” as I understand it, but is not canonized./

It is because, evidently, these are matters in which you are acting according to what you “think” and what you “understand”…that is its own fundamental error.

Pius IX was beatified on September 3, 2000. You may visit his shrine, the next time you are San Lorenzo fuori le mura.

If

you had actual depth in the person and in the opus of Blessed Pius IX, then you would know this reality as fact, like the very air in which we live and move and have our being. As it is, you are simply transcribing quotes without being able to theologically situate them.

You are not here seeking to learn. Your behaviour pattern has demonstrated that…ad nauseam.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Would you, as a professor of theology, pick an area pertinent to Mariology where you believe I am most in error, and–charitably and slowly show me, from authoritative sources, what I need to learn about our Blessed Mother?

No.

Because this is yet one more manipulative ploy; the response by you would be the same tactic that you have used in every one of your posts.

At this point, more than a dialogue with a professor of theology, you need to go and submit yourself to a confessor.

 

[patricius79]

If you had actual depth in the person and in the opus of Blessed Pius IX, then you would know this reality as fact, like the very air in which we live and move and have our being. As it is, you are simply transcribing quotes without being able to theologically situate them.
.

Dear Father Ruggero,

It’s true that I only know a few things. That’s why I want to learn more. As far as not being able to theologically situate what I’m reading from the Popes, maybe you could do that using authoritative documents such as the Catechism.

…this would help to deepen the knowledge of other viewers regarding the mystery of Mary in her relationship to the Blessed Trinity, which is an inexhaustible treasure.

To help you understand where I’m coming from, here is St. Louis regarding the necessity of devotion to our Blessed Mother:

39. Secondly, we must conclude that, being necessary to God by a necessity which is called “hypothetical”, (that is, because God so willed it), the Blessed Virgin is all the more necessary for men to attain their final end. Consequently we must not place devotion to her on the same level as devotion to the other saints as if it were merely something optional.
ewtn.com/library/montfort/truedevo.htm

One of my questions is: has the Church ever contradicted this?

I know that Pope St. John Paul II wrote this in his 1987 Encyclical, Redemptoris Mater:

In this context, the Marian Year is meant to promote a new and more careful reading of what the Council said about the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, in the mystery of Christ and of the Church, the topic to which the contents of this Encyclical are devoted. Here we speak not only of the doctrine of faith but also of the life of faith, and thus of authentic “Marian spirituality,” seen in the light of Tradition, and especially the spirituality to which the Council exhorts us.142 Furthermore, Marian spirituality, like its corresponding devotion, finds a very rich source in the historical experience of individuals and of the various Christian communities present among the different peoples and nations of the world. In this regard, I would like to recall, among the many witnesses and teachers of this spirituality, the figure of Saint Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort,143 who proposes consecration to Christ through the hands of Mary, as an effective means for Christians to live faithfully their baptismal commitments. I am pleased to note that in our own time too new manifestations of this spirituality and devotion are not lacking.
w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater.html

 

[Roseeurekacross]

As already stated, I wont read posts with quotes. (Unless the quoter is expert in the field being quoted). This is because the poor humble quote, the blood , sweat and, tears of a wordsworth, is drowning in erroneous spume. Alas.

Back to Glorifying God , as His imperfect sinning creature;
and reading the list of Dogmas , + 101 of the Church.
Seen them, Pat?

Pat

Go to post #2 on this thread.

Click on the pdf link

Download and read through the list.

Its the kind of thing Blessed Mother Mary wants us to concentrate on.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1046412

 

[pianistclare]

At this point, OP, you are guilty of harassment.
Father has addressed you and your many errors numerous times.

Reported.
As I am sure many other have already.