How hell could possibly be justified?

[davidv]

I think you need to define smart and wise since it seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. No need to say that your argument does not stand since it is not good to punish unwise people anyway.

I used the common meaning of both terms. I don’t need to define them. They are already defined.

Once again. It matters not how smart Satan is, or humans are. He, and they, is/are, still free to make unwise choices.

 

[STT]

It isn’t rational for you because you can form rationality, ethics and compassion, to the beings who created such a universe, considering the suffering that they created to the innocents, it would be pretty rational.

Yes.

 

[STT]

God does not condemn irrational people.

Those he condemns are people who willfully use reason to frustrate his divine plan for us all.

Are you saying that we can rationalize evil? How could you possibly have a moral system?

Sin is not rooted in intellect. It is rooted in will. Reason only cooperates with the hateful will.

Where hate could possibly come from? Hate comes for a reason. Either your nature dictates to hate or you were harmed.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Are you saying that we can rationalize evil? How could you possibly have a moral system?

We cannot rationalize evil. That’s what I said.

Hate comes from pride, wanting to see one’s own self as supreme.

It is the false promise the Serpent made to Adam and Eve, that they could become as God. They fell for it, not because they were dumb, but because they were steeped in Pride. Had they not been steeped in Pride, they would have detected the lie from the Father of Lies.

 

[ANV]

We cannot rationalize evil. That’s what I said.

Hate comes from pride, wanting to see one’s own self as supreme.

It is the false promise the Serpent made to Adam and Eve, that they could become as God. They fell for it, not because they were dumb, but because they were steeped in Pride. Had they not been steeped in Pride, they would have detected the lie from the Father of Lies.

So the ones who have no pride have no hate?

 

[STT]

So the ones who have no pride have no hate?

And why you have sense of pride? Because you are created that way.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

So the ones who have no pride have no hate?

What kind of pride are you talking about?

The pride that puts self before God is hateful toward a loving God…

The humility that puts God and others before self is the sign of a great lover.

It is possible to have no pride and be full of hate. That would be especially true if you have been beaten down by hateful people, made to feel worthless or evil. We know such people exist, and the sins of the parents are often visited upon the children. The first great sinners, Adam and Eve, defied God. In this defiance they showed resentment and hate. Then one of their sons was so full of envy and hate he killed his brother. This is not the deliberate mistake of intellect, but it is the deliberate mistake of pride.

 

[ANV]

What kind of pride are you talking about?

The pride that puts self before God is hateful toward a loving God…

The humility that puts God and others before self is the sign of a great lover.

It is possible to have no pride and be full of hate. That would be especially true if you have been beaten down by hateful people, made to feel worthless or evil. We know such people exist, and the sins of the parents are often visited upon the children. The first great sinners, Adam and Eve, defied God. In this defiance they showed resentment and hate. Then one of their sons was so full of envy and hate he killed his brother. This is not the deliberate mistake of intellect, but it is the deliberate mistake of pride.

So do you have pride?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

And why you have sense of pride? Because you are created that way.

There are two kinds of Pride.

The Pride of being human and beloved by God. We are created that way.

The Pride of wanting to be godlike by killing God. We were not created for that Pride.

That kind of Pride belongs to the devil.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

So do you have pride?

I am proud to be a son of God.

I am not proud to be a sinner.

Do you have pride?

Please explain what kind of pride you have in more than one sentence, if possible.

Thanks.

 

[STT]

There are two kinds of Pride.

The Pride of being human and beloved by God. We are created that way.

The Pride of wanting to be godlike by killing God. We were not created for that Pride.

That kind of Pride belongs to the devil.

Do you agree that the second pride is part of our nature?

 

[ANV]

I am proud to be a son of God.

I am not proud to be a sinner.

Do you have pride?

Please explain what kind of pride you have in more than one sentence, if possible.

Thanks.

I can’t think of any. pride to me seems something unreasonable.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Do you agree that the second pride is part of our nature?

No. It is only part of our fallen nature to the extent that we will it.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

I am proud to be a son of God.

I remember Sept. 11 when many people put up a sign in the office: “Proud to be American”. I wanted to correct them. They should have said: “Lucky to be American” - after all they did not do anything to become what they are.

One should only be proud of their own achievements. And there is nothing wrong with that kind of pride.

Going back to the OP. Hell - whatever it might be - can never be justified rationally.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I remember Sept. 11 when many people put up a sign in the office: “Proud to be American”. I wanted to correct them. They should have said: “Lucky to be American” - after all they did not do anything to become what they are.

One should only be proud of their own achievements. And there is nothing wrong with that kind of pride.

Going back to the OP. Hell - whatever it might be - can never be justified rationally.

You are reasoning against God. Not a winning argument.

Might as well say heaven can never be justified rationally.

You are right about not knowing what hell really is … but it can’t be good, even if we prefer to be there rather than with God.

 

[ANV]

So you believe that those who do not believe in your god prefer to go to hell?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

So you believe that those who do not believe in your god prefer to go to hell?

Evidently, since they cannot be certain there is no hell.

 

[ANV]

Evidently, since they cannot be certain there is no hell.

What kind of logic is that?
Being uncertain that there is Hell is more of a reason why a person wouldn’t think of going to a place uncertain that it exists.
This is like saying that you as a Catholic want to go to any place you can mention that you don’t believe it exists or at least uncertain about.
So if I don’t believe and deny the existence of Hell, how does that mean that I want to go to a place that I don’t believe it exists, and why not for exp, say that about Heaven, since I am equally sure that both don’t exist.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

What kind of logic is that?
Being uncertain that there is Hell is more of a reason why a person wouldn’t think of going to a place uncertain that it exists.
This is like saying that you as a Catholic want to go to any place you can mention that you don’t believe it exists or at least uncertain about.
So if I don’t believe and deny the existence of Hell, how does that mean that I want to go to a place that I don’t believe it exists, and why not for exp, say that about Heaven, since I am equally sure that both don’t exist.

In life there is such a thing as taking chances. If there is the possibility of life after death, which the atheist has to concede (most atheists assert nothing is certain), then what the atheist prefers is the chance of going to hell over the chance of meeting God.

Perfectly good logic. Please refute it!

A famous mathematician named Pascal believed this argument was solid, and another famous mathematician named Bertrand Russell did not take Pascal to task for his reasoning, though he was eager to take on just about every other argument in favor of God. To me this indicates Russell had no good reply to Pascal.

 

[tonyrey]

In life there is such a thing as taking chances. If there is the possibility of life after death, which the atheist has to concede (most atheists assert nothing is certain), then what the atheist prefers is the chance of going to hell over the chance of meeting God.

Perfectly good logic. Please refute it!

A famous mathematician named Pascal believed this argument was solid, and another famous mathematician named Bertrand Russell did not take Pascal to task for his reasoning, though he was eager to take on just about every other argument in favor of God. To me this indicates Russell had no good reply to Pascal.

Russell was certainly not a fool!