How hell could possibly be justified?

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Vico said:
It is the tree choice of the one in hell.

Catechism 1033 … To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
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We are talking about irrational people. No need to say that eternal punishment for a single sin makes no sense to me.
 
STT said:
So Hell is not a place that God sustains it?
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Hell is not necessarily a place in the physical sense.

More likely it is a state of being that involves intense suffering freely chosen.

Satan chose hell, but that does not mean he is not suffering in tensely; as they say, evil people need lots of company to divert them from their suffering … hence Satan’s mission to populate hell with as many fellow sufferers as possible.

Hell exists, and it is freely chosen. God does not let us us go there without our having chosen to be worthy of the place.

Recently the head of the Jesuit order has a lot to answer for, especially in light of Pope Francis’ frequent comments about the devil and the need for more exorcists.
 
STT said:
So Hell is not a place that God sustains it?
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Neither Heaven nor Purgatory nor Hell is situated in time and space. God is a Spirit in Whose image we are made. After death our existence depends on whether we choose to love God or reject Him but whatever we choose we wouldn’t exist if weren’t sustained by His love. Nothing can ever alter the fact that we are His children. In Shakespeare’s wonderful words:
Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments.** Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds**,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O, no! it is an ever-fixed mark,
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth’s unknown, although his height be taken.
Love ’s not Time’s fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle’s compass come;
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error, and upon me prov’d,
I never writ, nor no man ever lov’d.
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  • Sonnet 116
 
STT said:
We are talking about irrational people. No need to say that eternal punishment for a single sin makes no sense to me.
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The person must depart with charity (grace), so there must be repentance and forgiveness before death. Eternal punishment occurs when there is sin with no repentance and forgiveness.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Hell is not necessarily a place in the physical sense.

More likely it is a state of being that involves intense suffering freely chosen.

Satan chose hell, but that does not mean he is not suffering in tensely; as they say, evil people need lots of company to divert them from their suffering … hence Satan’s mission to populate hell with as many fellow sufferers as possible.

Hell exists, and it is freely chosen. God does not let us us go there without our having chosen to be worthy of the place.

Recently the head of the Jesuit order has a lot to answer for, especially in light of Pope Francis’ frequent comments about the devil and the need for more exorcists.
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I was told that Satan is very smartest. How a smart being could choose pain over pleasure? Is He masochist? Perhaps we are mislead by Satan about the truth.
 
tonyrey said:
Neither Heaven nor Purgatory nor Hell is situated in time and space.
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How a being with body could go into a thing which has no space/room? What you are saying is incoherent.
tonyrey said:
God is a Spirit in Whose image we are made. After death our existence depends on whether we choose to love God or reject Him but whatever we choose we wouldn’t exist if weren’t sustained by His love. Nothing can ever alter the fact that we are His children. In Shakespeare’s wonderful words:
  • Sonnet 116
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What does He want us to do? To love Him and be loved? Rejecting love shows the existence of impurity in a rational being.
 
STT said:
I was told that Satan is very smartest. How a smart being could choose pain over pleasure? Is He masochist? Perhaps we are mislead by Satan about the truth.
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Wisdom leads to good choices. Smartness does not equal wisdom. Smart people make evil choices.
 
STT said:
I was told that Satan is very smartest. How a smart being could choose pain over pleasure? Is He masochist? Perhaps we are mislead by Satan about the truth.
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Per St. Thomas Aquinas:

Angels are purely intellectual, and* will *not with the inquisitive deliberation of counsel, but by the sudden acceptance of truth.

**Summa Theologiae > First Part > Question 59 The will of the angels

Article 1. Whether there is will in the angels?**
Reply to Objection 1. Reason surpasses sense in a different way from that in which intellect surpasses reason. Reason surpasses sense according to the diversity of the objects known; for sense judges of particular objects, while reason judges of universals. Therefore there must be* one appetite tending towards good in the abstract, which appetite belongs to reason; * and another with a tendency towards particular good, which appetite belongs to sense.
But intellect and reason differ as to their manner of knowing; * because the intellect knows by simple intuition, * while reason knows by a process of discursion from one thing to another.
Nevertheless by such discursion reason comes to know what intellect learns without it, namely, the universal. Consequently the object presented to the appetitive faculty on the part of reason and on the part of intellect is the same. Therefore in the angels, who are purely intellectual, there is no appetite higher than the will.

Article 3. Whether there is free-will in the angels?
Reply to Objection 1. The Philosopher is speaking of choice, as it is in man. As a man’s estimate in speculative matters differs from an angel’s in this, that the one needs not to inquire, while the other does so need; so is it in practical matters. Hence there is choice in the angels, yet not with the inquisitive deliberation of counsel, but by the sudden acceptance of truth.

newadvent.org/summa/1059.htm
 
The idea of Hell is very suitable with such existence, it would be clearly justified given the fact of how the world works, a god who gives cancer to a child, creates a predator and a prey, diseases to the innocent and wouldn’t use his power to stop a rapist or an animal abuser from committing their evil acts would be very possible and likely for him, her or they to punish someome for disbelieving or misfollowing their rules.
 
davidv said:
Wisdom leads to good choices. Smartness does not equal wisdom. Smart people make evil choices.
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I think you need to define smart and wise since it seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. No need to say that your argument does not stand since it is not good to punish unwise people anyway.
 
Vico said:
Per St. Thomas Aquinas:

Angels are purely intellectual, and* will *not with the inquisitive deliberation of counsel, but by the sudden acceptance of truth.

**Summa Theologiae > First Part > Question 59 The will of the angels

Article 1. Whether there is will in the angels?**
Reply to Objection 1. Reason surpasses sense in a different way from that in which intellect surpasses reason. Reason surpasses sense according to the diversity of the objects known; for sense judges of particular objects, while reason judges of universals. Therefore there must be* one appetite tending towards good in the abstract, which appetite belongs to reason; * and another with a tendency towards particular good, which appetite belongs to sense.
But intellect and reason differ as to their manner of knowing; * because the intellect knows by simple intuition, * while reason knows by a process of discursion from one thing to another.
Nevertheless by such discursion reason comes to know what intellect learns without it, namely, the universal. Consequently the object presented to the appetitive faculty on the part of reason and on the part of intellect is the same. Therefore in the angels, who are purely intellectual, there is no appetite higher than the will.

Article 3. Whether there is free-will in the angels?
Reply to Objection 1. The Philosopher is speaking of choice, as it is in man. As a man’s estimate in speculative matters differs from an angel’s in this, that the one needs not to inquire, while the other does so need; so is it in practical matters. Hence there is choice in the angels, yet not with the inquisitive deliberation of counsel, but by the sudden acceptance of truth.

newadvent.org/summa/1059.htm
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I don’t understand how what you said is related to what I said.
 
ANV said:
The idea of Hell is very suitable with such existence, it would be clearly justified given the fact of how the world works, a god who gives cancer to a child, creates a predator and a prey, diseases to the innocent and wouldn’t use his power to stop a rapist or an animal abuser from committing their evil acts would be very possible and likely for him, her or they to punish someome for disbelieving or misfollowing their rules.
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I don’t think so since the idea of punishing irrationals does not seems rational to me.
 
STT said:
I don’t understand how what you said is related to what I said.
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You wrote: “I was told that Satan is very smartest. How a smart being could choose pain over pleasure? Is He masochist? Perhaps we are mislead by Satan about the truth.”

Satan is a fallen archangel, a purely spiritual being and makes his choice by will not by rational deliberation and will suffer spiritually only (has no body). So it is not a choice over pain vs pleasure of a sensuous kind, rather he “rejected God and his reign”.

CatechismII. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”.267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.271
 
STT said:
I don’t think so since the idea of punishing irrationals does not seems rational to me.
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It isn’t rational for you because you can form rationality, ethics and compassion, to the beings who created such a universe, considering the suffering that they created to the innocents, it would be pretty rational.
 
STT said:
How could possibly God create Hell and justify it knowing the fact that just irrational people goes against God’s plan for us, goodness? Why should God torture irrational people?
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God does not condemn irrational people.

Those he condemns are people who willfully use reason to frustrate his divine plan for us all.

Sin is not rooted in intellect. It is rooted in will. Reason only cooperates with the hateful will.
 
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