How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?

[Roy5]

Fr. McBride’s weekly column appeared in our local paper today. He is, as many know, professor at Notre Dame.

The column is entitled: "Demoralization in the Catholic Church". Perhaps it is on the web if you want to read the whole thing. He points out that Catholics in America are leaving the church in large numbers, and the total number would have shrunk considerably except for immigrants, mainly from Latin America. He goes on to point out that the RC is facing its greatest crisis since the Reformation - the sex scandal - and the officialdom has been handling that crisis poorly. "The hierarchy ignored warnings" and "presumed to lecture American Catholics, insisting that the crisis was confined to America..." etc.

He ends up with specific recommendations.

This may appear to be off-thread, but I suspect that it impacts loyalty to Catholic doctrine and practice, with the Eucharist at the center of both. If Catholics become convinced that their Church is inept when it comes to such a grave issue as predatory priests, their faith in the magisterium etc begins to collapse, and it could be only a small step from that to denying Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

 

[PRmerger]

PRMerger

I'm about through dialoguing, because you obviously are not interested in a helpful discussion.

As you wish.

As an addendum I will say this to you, Roy. I would have actually believed your “I’m so broad-minded and tolerant and ecumenical and you’re so militant and obdurate, which makes me superior” paradigm , if I had ever seen you post something like this:

“Hmmm…what you say, Orthodox Catholic, is quite interesting. I’ve never thought about that before.”

or

“I will re-consider what I’ve thought, Fundamentalist Christian, because you bring up a good point.”

THAT would be tolerant, and broad minded. Instead, I see you promoting your own dogma yet objecting to those who do the same.

 

[PRmerger]

However, in response: I recently was executor of an estate of a thoroughly orthodox Catholic;

So Roy didn’t choose to be a friends with this orthodox Catholic.

one of my brothers lives in a mobile home and other folks I know, also;

Again, not someone he chooses to hang out with socially.

no, I don’t know any who worship Satan but I know some Wiccan-oriented people; a couple of my elderly relatives, sadly, are prejudiced toward Blacks; I really don’t know how many of my friends use birth control unapproved by the Catholic Church, and it’s not my business; I know some employees at Wal-Mart; my mother only finished the 8th grade and my grandfather was illiterate; no, I haven’t seen a friend wear that particular T-shirt, nor would I recommend that s/he wear one. Would you?

 Sorry, but you have a stereotype that is so far from reality that further discussion is pointless.

I see that everyone he posted above is either family or someone he “knows”. Not friends.

My point was that the people these “broad-minded” individuals CHOOSE to hang out with–socially–are a very selective type of people. No friends who are orthodox Catholics. No friends who live in mobile homes.

Liberal Muslims? yes. Actors? yes. Artists? yes.

A cashier from the QuikTrip? Not so much.

 

[Cinette]

Fr. McBride’s weekly column appeared in our local paper today. He is, as many know, professor at Notre Dame.

The column is entitled: "Demoralization in the Catholic Church". Perhaps it is on the web if you want to read the whole thing. He points out that Catholics in America are leaving the church in large numbers, and the total number would have shrunk considerably except for immigrants, mainly from Latin America. He goes on to point out that the RC is facing its greatest crisis since the Reformation - the sex scandal - and the officialdom has been handling that crisis poorly. "The hierarchy ignored warnings" and "presumed to lecture American Catholics, insisting that the crisis was confined to America..." etc.

He ends up with specific recommendations.

This may appear to be off-thread, but I suspect that it impacts loyalty to Catholic doctrine and practice, with the Eucharist at the center of both. If Catholics become convinced that their Church is inept when it comes to such a grave issue as predatory priests, their faith in the magisterium etc begins to collapse, and it could be only a small step from that to denying Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

*When the abuse scandal broke out my first reaction was a deep deep hurt because of all the wonderful holy priests and religious I have known over the years. All this would reflect on them - those innocent men and women. At the same time I was angry and would like to look those abuser priests in the eye and ask them why. I couldn’t believe that a man who had given his life to God, spent years in a seminary and known the full teachings of the Church could be capable of such abuse!!! It is shocking and terrible. I would like to see such priests severely punished.

However this would never cause me to leave the Catholic Church - never. I would not “abandon Peter because of Judas”. I know that the Church has taken strong measures against the scandals - Our wonderful Pope Benedict himself has spoken about this and against this. Recently on his trip to Portugal he said that the enemy of the Church is from within - the ugly scandal came from within and we must all work to cleanse the Church. The devil has been at work.

I have decided to offer a 54 day rosary novena for the Church. Perhaps this thing will do a lot of good to the Church. I am talking about the purging and the strict measures. Apparently over 2 million priests, teachers and others who deal with children have put themselves up for scrunity for “clearance” that they are above board. Children have been instructed about abuse and warned and told exactly how they should handle this.

Do not forget that our entire society is full of sexual predators - teachers, boys scout, prominent men pedophiles (men who hold high office who belong to pedophile groups) - the world is infested with them. Of course the Church is expected to set the highest example and when such a thing occurs it is enormous. But we have to address our entire society where predators lurk everywhere.

The Church today is prehaps the safest place for our children.

I hope more people will pray a 54 day rosary novena for the Church and its purification from such evil.

This is the Church Christ founded and I plan stay right where I am.

Cinette*

 

[PRmerger]

To be perfectly honest: I don’t know what the verb catechized means.

cat·e·chize (khttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif-khttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/imacr.gifzhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif)tr.v. cat·e·chized, cat·e·chiz·ing, cat·e·chiz·es **1. ** To teach the principles of Christian dogma, discipline, and ethics by means of questions and answers.
.

If so, no, I was never interested in that and I never read it. When I was the first time in an Evangelical Lutheran Service i “fall so in love” with the protestant teachings that I began from that day on only read in the Bible, and not in the Catechism, for the Catechism is the Word of Mankind, not of God!! (This is only the very very minimum short version of why I left the RCC. It is simply too long to write it down here!)

So it would be correct to say that you did not know what you were leaving?

For example, were you taught what the Mass is? Do you know where Scripture is in the Mass?

Of course he was. Why are you asking? Matthew was written about 80 AD as far as I know and John about 100 AD. I am astonished why you don’t know that…

Yes, I do not know all things. Especially history, which makes my eyes glaze over.

And as I have written before, I was long enough a Catholic, having always As in RI (Religious Instruction) at Primary School and High School jun and sen!

Best wishes,
Esdra

But you were not well catechized?

 

[PRmerger]

Hi,

What the “it” is, is quite simple! It is the teachings of Jesus Christ. The whole teaching. Best summarized in Matthew Chapters 5-7.

I think that you are not quite familiar with the Scriptures of John.

Read this and tell me if you conclude that the “hard saying” refers to “the whole teaching” of Christ.

53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

**Many Disciples Desert Jesus **

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” 61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirite] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”
66**From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. **

 

[Esdra]

Ummm, @ Esdra: Du sagst du warst Katholisch, aber weisst nicht was der Katechismus ist? Bist du als Kind nie in den Religionsunterricht gegangen?

I asked him/her about not knowing what catechized/catechism means (especially since the German word is basically the same). And I know that Austria has, or at least used to have, religious instruction even in public schools.

Hey koshalkoj

ist ja cool, dass du Deutsch kannst. Das freut mich jetzt echt!

Naja, ich weiss sehr wohl was der Katchismus ist, aber im Religionsunterricht haben wir ihn nie behandelt, ehrlich.

Wir haben uns über ethische Fragen unterhalten wie Abtreibung, Selbstmord etc. und wie die katholische Kirche steht - aber wirklich den Katechismus behandelt haben wir nie, ehrlich.

Weiters haben wir Kirchengeschichte behandelt (ich liebte das! Ich war immer schon ein Fan von Geschichte!)

Und uns über die Bible unterhalten, besonders in der Volksschule.

Würdest du bitte so nett sein, das für mich zusammenfassend für die anderen zu übersetzen, denn ich nehme mal an, dass nur wir beide Deutsch können in diesem Board…?

Ich habe leider keine Zeit jetzt…

Danke.

Liebe Grüße,
Esdra

 

[Roy5]

PRMerger

I don't intend to waste my time responding to you any more, but to show how devious you are you immediately conclude that the man who chose me to handle his estate was not a friend and that even my brother is not my friend! What motivates you anyway? 

The reason the good Catholic selected me is because we were such close friends. He spent his last several years in an assisted-living facility and I would visit him regularly, often twice a week. We didn't see eye to eye on all matters religious or political, but we had some wonderful, stimulating discussions. By the way he left all of his estate to charity, with by far the largest amount going to St. Jude Children's Hospital. A great guy.

As for that older brother (I have several) he also is one of my special friends. Since he lives 1500 miles away, we don't see each other often, but we get together whenever possible. Etc.

I'm through. No more efforts to carry on a reasonable conversation. You seem to have no interest in an honest and intelligent dialogue.

 

[PRmerger]

PRMerger

I don't intend to waste my time responding to you any more, but to show how devious you are you immediately conclude that the man who chose me to handle his estate was not a friend and that even my brother is not my friend! What motivates you anyway?

Forgive me if I gave the impression that I did not believe that your brother is your friend.

All I’m saying is that you did not CHOOSE to be friends with someone who lives in a mobile home.

Your “broad minded” and “ecumenical” group of friends–whom you choose to socialize with–is quite selective.

The reason the good Catholic selected me is because we were such close friends.

I stand corrected.

I’m through. No more efforts to carry on a reasonable conversation. You seem to have no interest in an honest and intelligent dialogue.

Again, as you wish.

(It’s just not very tolerant, ecumenical or broad minded, IMHO. Still waiting to hear you say, 'Wow, I never thought about that before, Fundamentalist! Good point!" I’ll be watching, though!)

 

[Esdra]

I think that you are not quite familiar with the Scriptures of John.

Read this and tell me if you conclude that the “hard saying” refers to “the whole teaching” of Christ.

53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

**Many Disciples Desert Jesus **

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” 61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirite] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”
66**From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. **

Hi,

at the moment I don’t have an answer to that… Sorry.

I will think about it and when I know what to answer I will be back here and post it!

So yes, you are right when you are saying that I never was proberly catechised.

I never had a glance on the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
However, my mom told me she had to learn it by heart - and she hated it (she is still Catholic, but she is a sort of “Cafe-Catholic” as one has stated here in the board (I like this term! )

All other young adolescents in my age neither read the Catechism.

Also not in RI (see my German post!).

I don’t know why noone here in Europe reads the Catechism anymore…

I mean, acutally, I have never thought about what I am leaving. I had and have my beliefe - and by chance it is nearly the same than those of some Protestant, especially Baptist and Pentecostal Churches…

Well, I do know what the Holy Eucharisty is. But I can’t identify me with that… - Since I started searching for Jesus this feeling to know that the RCC can’t be the right way FOR ME (not that people start saying that I am again comtempting the RCC again! ).
Well I found what I searched for in the Protestantism…

I also know what the priest reads when he is consecrating the hosts.
However, I don’t know where in the Bible it says that the Holy Eucharisty was introduced by Jesus Himself.

Well, that’s just me. The RCC couldn’t give me what I was searching for. And I found it in the Protestantism… Just as some of you found “it” in the RCC…

Best wishes,
Esdra (I AM MALE BTW! ) (Esdras is a book in the Russian Orthodox Bible and it is about Ezra, the prophet.)

 

[rinnie]

Estra, Think about something buddy. Look what PR, Just wrote.

Now that scripture states Unless you eat my flesh, and drink my blood you will not have eternal life. Now why did Jesus at the Last Supper say to his Apostles this is my body and this is my blood.

Now put them 2 together, IF he said Do this in memory of me. He gave the permission to do something right? What was it? Turn bread and wine into the living Christ the same as he did. Back to Last Supper this IS my body and blood.

Now why would he say that without it we cannot have eternal life, it it was not indeed the living Christ.

Because if you deny Jesus CHrist in the Eucharist and if he IS NOT the Eucharist as he states forgive my language but we are all screwed. We cannot have eternal life then. See what I am saying?

Now back to CHurch. You remember the Priest takes the Bread holds it up and says …Now he does exactly what Jesus told him to DO does he not. Jesus tells his Apostles DO THIS in memory of me. Now what would by the purpose of him telling them to do it then? How do we have eternal life then?

Trust me my Son, I love you I really do. I don’t know why but I feel a special bond with you. But I am going to tell you like my own now, you are on the wrong track buddy.

Stay with us here. Give it a shot. Just once go back enter the Church and pay attention this time. Watch the Priest. Really watch him this time. I promise you my Love you will have tears in your eyes when you see Jesus Christ being transformed from bread and wine before you very eyes. You will fill it.

Don’t give up your Faith and your Church until you really know what it teaches. We will all help you. I promise we will. This will be the MOST important thing you will ever do in your life.

 

[PRmerger]

So yes, you are right when you are saying that I never was proberly catechised.

I never had a glance on the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

You can be well catechized in the Catholic faith without ever having read one word of the Catechism. It has to do with learning the faith that Jesus Christ gave us, through his apostles, not with reading that book.

Since you’ve never read the Catechism I will tell you that it is FULL of Scripture.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Hi,

at the moment I don’t have an answer to that… Sorry.

I will think about it and when I know what to answer I will be back here and post it!

So yes, you are right when you are saying that I never was proberly catechised.

I never had a glance on the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
However, my mom told me she had to learn it by heart - and she hated it (she is still Catholic, but she is a sort of “Cafe-Catholic” as one has stated here in the board (I like this term! )

[SIGN]All other young adolescents in my age neither read the Catechism.[/SIGN]
Also not in RI (see my German post!).

I don’t know why noone here in Europe reads the Catechism anymore…

I mean, acutally, I have never thought about what I am leaving. I had and have my beliefe - and by chance it is nearly the same than those of some Protestant, especially Baptist and Pentecostal Churches…

Well, I do know what the Holy Eucharisty is. But I can’t identify me with that… - Since I started searching for Jesus this feeling to know that the RCC can’t be the right way FOR ME (not that people start saying that I am again comtempting the RCC again! ).
Well I found what I searched for in the Protestantism…

I also know what the priest reads when he is consecrating the hosts.
However, I don’t know where in the Bible it says that the Holy Eucharisty was introduced by Jesus Himself.

Well, that’s just me. The RCC couldn’t give me what I was searching for. And I found it in the Protestantism… Just as some of you found “it” in the RCC…

Best wishes,
Esdra (I AM MALE BTW! ) (Esdras is a book in the Russian Orthodox Bible and it is about Ezra, the prophet.)

Hey buddy you can change that you know!! Maybe thats what God is trying to tell you. Maybe you are called to do his work. I don’t know:shrug: But maybe just maybe (I know I can never speak for God he always gets mad at me ) but maybe just maybe this is his way of asking you to do his work.

I do know one thing for sure you are searching my Love, And I know God will guide you. God’s love for us never fails. But you picked up on what we are finding in the RCC today. Kids need to learn the bible again.

And it is because they do not know the bible and the Catholic faith they are being swayed into leaving. We call all make a difference if we try.

 

[Esdra]

Estra, Think about something buddy. Look what PR, Just wrote.

Now that scripture states Unless you eat my flesh, and drink my blood you will not have eternal life. Now why did Jesus at the Last Supper say to his Apostles this is my body and this is my blood.

Now put them 2 together, IF he said Do this in memory of me. He gave the permission to do something right? What was it? Turn bread and wine into the living Christ the same as he did. Back to Last Supper this IS my body and blood.

Now why would he say that without it we cannot have eternal life, it it was not indeed the living Christ.

Because if you deny Jesus CHrist in the Eucharist and if he IS NOT the Eucharist as he states forgive my language but we are all screwed. We cannot have eternal life then. See what I am saying?

Now back to CHurch. You remember the Priest takes the Bread holds it up and says …Now he does exactly what Jesus told him to DO does he not. Jesus tells his Apostles DO THIS in memory of me. Now what would by the purpose of him telling them to do it then? How do we have eternal life then?

Trust me my Son, I love you I really do. I don’t know why but I feel a special bond with you. But I am going to tell you like my own now, you are on the wrong track buddy.

Stay with us here. Give it a shot. Just once go back enter the Church and pay attention this time. Watch the Priest. Really watch him this time. I promise you my Love you will have tears in your eyes when you see Jesus Christ being transformed from bread and wine before you very eyes. You will fill it.

Don’t give up your Faith and your Church until you really know what it teaches. We will all help you. I promise we will. This will be the MOST important thing you will ever do in your life.

Dear Rinnie,

well, actually I do know what the RCC teaches and what happens during mass.

As I have told you in my PMs, I know that Jesus wants me to have where I am - in the Baptist Community.

Believe it or not in the Catholic Church I never had tears in my eyes during transubstitution!
BUT I had when I first was in the Baptist Community. I could feel Him as if He was standing infront of us! I FELT His love. – And I still do, every Sunday when I go to service!
I know, you don’t believe me, but I say the truth.

Best wishes,
Esdra

 

[rinnie]

You can be well catechized in the Catholic faith without ever having read one word of the Catechism. It has to do with learning the faith that Jesus Christ gave us, through his apostles, not with reading that book.

Since you’ve never read the Catechism I will tell you that it is FULL of Scripture.

He is right buddy, And it not only shows you every single thing that we do in the RCC, it shows you the scripture in the bible.

It shows you that the bible is not the pillar and bulward of the Truth.

It will show you the Catholic Church is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth!!

We will all help you if you want us too. You can PM anyone of us, I am sure PRM would be happy to help you also. We are only here to help especially People like you. Catholic’s who need a little extra help in getting back what you have lost. Or find what you already have but don’t realize it

 

[rinnie]

Dear Rinnie,

well, actually I do know what the RCC teaches and what happens during mass.

As I have told you in my PMs, I know that Jesus wants me to have where I am - in the Baptist Community.

Believe it or not in the Catholic Church I never had tears in my eyes during transubstitution!
BUT I had when I first was in the Baptist Community. I could feel Him as if He was standing infront of us! I FELT His love. – And I still do, every Sunday when I go to service!
I know, you don’t believe me, but I say the truth.

Best wishes,
Esdra

I do believe you my love. I really do. But you got to believe me too. Just wait and see. Hey what do you have to lose. Nothing. If God wants you to remain in the Baptist Church thats cool.

But what If I am right what do you have to lose in learning what the CC really teaches also. And what if I am right and one day you walk in after all those years and see it again for the first time.

Its a win win for you my dear. The worst thing that happens to you is you can say I now do know understand the Catholic faith. You have nothing to lose. And either way its cool with me.

IF its Gods will no one overpowers God. But it would be rewarding for all of us. Hey it beats T.V.

 

[PRmerger]

Also not in RI (see my German post!).

Your *German *post?

Hindi mo dapat ipalagay na ang lahat ay maaaring maunawaan ang iyong wika.

 

[PRmerger]

We will all help you if you want us too. You can PM anyone of us, I am sure PRM would be happy to help you also. We are only here to help especially People like you. Catholic’s who need a little extra help in getting back what you have lost. Or find what you already have but don’t realize it

'zactly!

 

[Cinette]

PRmerger;6638257:

So why did you leave? Were you well catechized?c

To be perfectly honest: I don’t know what the verb catechized means.
I guess it has to do something with Catechism. If so, no, I was never interested in that and I never read it. When I was the first time in an Evangelical Lutheran Service i “fall so in love” with the protestant teachings that I began from that day on only read in the Bible, and not in the Catechism, for the Catechism is the Word of Mankind, not of God!! (This is only the very very minimum short version of why I left the RCC. It is simply too long to write it down here!)

Of course he was. Why are you asking? Matthew was written about 80 AD as far as I know and John about 100 AD. I am astonished why you don’t know that…

I think it is very presumptuous to compare Jesus with a Church of Humans as the RCC is.
Paganism DID change the whole Catholic Church and I simply can’t accept the pagan teachings in the RCC, for they are not of Christ. And please don’t start now with “Well, Peter was the First Pope and the Pope is infallible” etc… and “The RCC was founded by Christ and endured 2000 years!”

Jesus only founded, if ever, (Remember? Jesus was a fathful Jew to his death!) the Ancient Christianity and NOT the RCC and I see the AC restored in the Protestant Churches (at least in most of them!)

By the way, I have never heard about

adding: Just as Jesus did see above!
And as I have written before, I was long enough a Catholic, having always As in RI (Religious Instruction) at Primary School and High School jun and sen!

Best wishes,
Esdra

*Dear Esdra - It is so obvious that you know very little about the Catholic Church. I suppose if I asked you 10 basic questions about the Church you would probably not be able to answer them correctly. From the things you say I have little doubt about this.

You are happy in your Baptist church. You love God. Well, that is good.

God bless all
Cinette*

 

[Esdra]

I do believe you my love. I really do. But you got to believe me too. Just wait and see. Hey what do you have to lose. Nothing. If God wants you to remain in the Baptist Church thats cool.

But what If I am right what do you have to lose in learning what the CC really teaches also. And what if I am right and one day you walk in after all those years and see it again for the first time.

Its a win win for you my dear. The worst thing that happens to you is you can say I now do know understand the Catholic faith. You have nothing to lose. And either way its cool with me.

IF its Gods will no one overpowers God. But it would be rewarding for all of us. Hey it beats T.V.

I tell you one thing: Guess when I was last in a Catholic mass?
Easter 2010!! Together with my family (yes, all of them, rinnie.)
I mean it was nice. Nothing against it. BUT, that’s not my Church.
And guess what striked me most? Noone payed attention during lesson or gospel reading. Neither when the priest preached. All were sitting in their pew and I had the feeling they would SLEEP.
I have often asked Dad what was the gospel today and what did the priest preach? He couldn’t answer me. He said he was meditating during mass, always!
I was looking for a **living **service. Where there are people who are happy because Jesus saved them and where you can feel this happiness. And this I got to know in the Baptist Church and the Pentecostal Church!