How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[xfrodobagginsx]

And who was He talking to when he said this??? IN CONTEXT try verse 14 also. You might also look at verse 16 to see what else He told them…

14 At length he appeared to the eleven as they were at table: and he upbraided them with their incredulity and hardness of heart, because they did not believe them who had seen him after he was risen again.
15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

Nice try…oh yeah…don’t forget…Your choice of username is quite ironic…Tolkien was quite the staunch Catholic!!!

Who does it say shall be damned? He that believeth not. Does it say He that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned? No. It says He that believeth not shall be damned.

Nice try.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

What you are saying is that you are a direct successor of the apostles. That is the essence of untruth about all self appointed preachers and pastors. It is only to the apostles and their successors that the ordaining of preachers and pastors (priests and bishops, etc.) is allowed.

This is why I only take to heart the words from Holy Mother Church, and not every person who claims to have the truth. Only the True Church has the Truth (as outlined in Sacred Scripture).

Those who have received the Sacrament of Holy Orders are my teachers.

I need qualifications on what I am taught. If I don’t insist on this, than I can be led into anything, for the Holy Spirit protects the Church from error.

Just as Christ fulfilled all of the prophesies of the Old Testament, He allowed his children who came after His Incarnation and Ascension to believe that He was who He said He was. He qualified Himself by fulfilling those prophesies, did Miraculous works of Charity, and then handed His teachings to the apostles.

Those apostles have a direct lineage to Him by His charge in the Gospels. You do not, in my opinion. I only take to heart those things that Christ Himself said, or the things that are said by those He appointed.

If you had the truth, then you would back this up.

Besides, what makes my own personal interpretation wrong, and yours right?

How do I get to Heaven? Follow what the Church tells me to do … that is what Christ intended. This is His wish for me - that I surrender my will to Him, and listen to his teachings from those He appointed.

We are to follow what Jesus Christ tells us to do. What if the church tells us to do something that contradicts the bible? You need to check what your church teaches to make sure it lines up with the bible. If not, the church is wrong on that issue.

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Who does it say shall be damned? He that believeth not. Does it say He that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned? No. It says He that believeth not shall be damned.

Nice try.

The Devil believed in God, yet he is in hell. He isn’t saved. Belief in Jesus is more than his belief. You have to believe everything that he as taught us. You cannot pick and choose parts of the Bible and make up new doctrines like those founded in Protestantism.

Jesus did say, there will be those who will say. Lord, Lord, did we not preached in your name? Jesus then answer I never knew you.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Please pray for those of us in suburban Detroit… we’re under severe t-storm and even some tornado warnings… thanks and God Bless… signing out.

That’s where I am from. I saw them yesterday. They really weren’t as bad as the news made them out to be, except that tornato in Fenton.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

I feel sorry for Frodo. He is wrong on so many things, yet so assured that he is correct. Thus, the error of Sola-Scriptura. One point that we need to clarify, as Catholics, however, that while we believe that Baptism is required for salvation(which could also include Baptism of desire or blood), Baptism, in and of itself does not guarantee salvation. We need to clarify that point, before we get falsely accused of preaching that. Furthermore, we need to debunk Frodo’s apparent belief that those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells are automatically guaranteed salvation. That is not true, either, obviously, since Baptism is regenerative. Frodo, please note Romans 8:13. “If you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit, you put to death the evil deeds of the body, you will live.” Now, in context, we see that St. Paul is NOT making a sales pitch for the Romans to “receive” the Holy Spirit, since they already have “received” Him(See verse 11.) St. Paul is making a conditional statement, that we need to utilize, for lack of a better word, The Holy Spirit that was given us, to put to death the deeds of the flesh. This is not automatic, and failure to do such will cause us to “die,” which meant lose our pending salvation. So, the idea that we are “sealed and protected from potential eternal damnation,” just because the Holy Spirit dwells in us is not true. Now, on John 10:27-28, we need to realize a few things. First, being one of God’s “sheep” is from God’s perspective, not ours. We can not declare ourselves saved. (See 1 Corinthians 4:3-5.) So, we can’t claim the promise of John 10:27-28 for ourselves, just because we made a “sinner’s prayer.” Also, while it is true that God will never choose to let us go, we can still choose to walk away from Him, which would be the wrong choice, obviously. Just some points I wanted to clarify.

I feel sorry for catholics who are caught up in so much legalism. Why not just believe what the bible says to do to get to heaven. In 99% of all verses that deal with salvation, baptism isn’t even meantioned. If it’s so important for salvation, don’t you think that it would be meantioned?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I feel sorry for catholics who are caught up in so much legalism. Why not just believe what the bible says to do to get to heaven. In 99% of all verses that deal with salvation, baptism isn’t even meantioned. If it’s so important for salvation, don’t you think that it would be meantioned?

You clearly misunderstood Catholicism. The Catholic Church does believe in the Gospel. We believe in these three basic of Catholicism, Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and Magisterial Teaching (the Teaching Office of the Church with Pope and the whole Bishop as one voice when teaching moral and faith issue).

We believe that Jesus established a Church whom he built it upon Peter (Matt 16:18) and the Apostles. When the Apostles died they handed their authority to their sucessors the bishops and Popes.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

They recognize his voice through his Church, which He (Jesus) founded.

Why not go by the word of God as Jesus Himself did as an example to you?

We live by the word of God…the bible.

Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Does it say “the church” is a lamp unto my feet? No, thy Word. The bible is.

Ps 119:105 ¶ NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. {lamp: or, candle}
(KJV)

We are to make sure that what our church teaches lines up with the word of God or the church is wrong.

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

My eternal life is in Christ Jesus alone, not the church or baptism or good deeds, but what He did for me on the cross to pay for my sins.

 

[savedsinner]

The following paraphrased from “The Truth” by Father Larry Richards, in which you can download for free if you register for free on his web site, The Reason For Our Hope.

When we get to the pearly gates, God the father will ask us why should I let you in here.
Our response better be, “because your son Jesus died for my sins”.
If our response is “because I was a good person”, or “because I attended church every Sunday”, God will be like a game show host, we will hear a buzz, and he will say “wrong answer, go directly to hell”.
But if we say “because Jesus died for my sins”, he will say “correct, now prove it by the way you lived you life.”

When we say we want Jesus to be “our personal Lord and Saviour”, well, Jesus can’t be our Saviour, unless he is also our Lord, which means he has to be in charge of our entire lives. We have to put God first in everything we do, not put him in there as an afterthought.

The one way Catholics prove that Jesus died for us, and the way we show Jesus is Lord in our lives, is to listen to the Church which we believe that scripture and history shows that Jesus himself established.
We submit to this church and listen to it, because we believe that it is Jesus himself that is speaking through his living church.

You might disagree with this, but this is what we truly believe, and we must follow what we believe, because God wants us either hot or cold, but not lukewarm.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Why not go by the word of God as Jesus Himself did as an example to you?

We live by the word of God…the bible.

Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Does it say “the church” is a lamp unto my feet? No, thy Word. The bible is.

Ps 119:105 ¶ NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. {lamp: or, candle}
(KJV)

We are to make sure that what our church teaches lines up with the word of God or the church is wrong.

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

My eternal life is in Christ Jesus alone, not the church or baptism or good deeds, but what He did for me on the cross to pay for my sins.

So by your premise the Church and Jesus aren’t One. Is not the Church the Mystical Body of Christ? You cannot separate the Church and Jesus.

When Saul persecuted the Church, Jesus came to Saul and said, "Saul, why are you persecuting me?

The Early Church was Catholic. She had Peter as the first Pope. Bible Alone isn’t even noted in the Bible. There is nothing in the Bible that the Bible ALONE is the sole role of faith…

Sorry, dude, I don’t buy your sale pinch that is only dates back its history in 1517 during the Reformation. I rather stick with the original Church which Jesus founded. Since it was also His Church that produce the Bible.

I want to make this very Clear. YOu Protestants cannot separate the Church and Jesus Christ!!!

Why did Jesus married the Bride, the New Jerusalem, the New Church. The Bride of the Lamb.

 

[Gamera]

I feel sorry for catholics who are caught up in so much legalism. Why not just believe what the bible says to do to get to heaven…

We do. We Catholics believe what the WHOLE Bible says about getting to heaven. We don’t cherry-pick verses to support man-made traditions such as “faith alone.” We accept the verses that require faith, AND the verses that require baptism, AND the verses that require remaining faithful in word and deed until the end of our lives. You are adept at quoting the verses which require faith but you seem to have no answer for the verses which require baptism and the verses that require good conduct because they don’t fit the man-made tradition of “faith alone.”

None of the verses you cite say we are saved by faith alone. The verses you cite say we are saved by faith, and that’s true, but they do not say we are saved by faith alone. Only one place does the Bible use the two words “faith alone” together, and that is to discredit it: “You see that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone,” James 2:24.

 

[Philthy]

I know Him and hear His voice and understand when He is speaking to me. I have a genuine relationship with Him. Do you?

Interesting question. Was there something about the question he asked which you purposely avoided - or was subconsciously avoided? Perhaps you could answer JimG’s question to you first, and then JimG can fill you in on the details of his personal relationship to Jesus. It is what is known as conversation etiquette…

 

[savedsinner]

Why not go by the word of God as Jesus Himself did as an example to you?

We live by the word of God…the bible.

**1 Peter 1:25 **-
**the Word of the Lord abides forever **and that Word is the good news that was “preached” (not read) **to you. **

Because the Word is preached by the apostles and it lasts forever, it must be preserved by the apostles’ successors, or this could not be possible. Also, because the oral word abides forever, oral apostolic tradition could not have died in the fourth century with all teachings being committed to Scripture.

And remember also that not only did Jesus say " it is written", but He also said " but I say."

 

[Mannyfit75]

We live by the word of God…the bible

The Word of God is Jesus Christ. Though the Bible is word of God but it is not the source of salvation. Jesus is.

 

[savedsinner]

I feel sorry for catholics who are caught up in so much legalism.

Genesis 26:4-5
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Do you also feel sorry for God , because according to this passage he too is caught up in so much legalism.

 

[Philthy]

I know Him and hear His voice and understand when He is speaking to me. I have a genuine relationship with Him. Do you?

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

I think this is what is commonly called “dodging the question”. Having seen your ability to answer other questions rather directly and your choice of avoiding answering this question one can only conclude that you don’t have a satisfactory answer or that you don’t like the answer. Either way actions speak louder than words.

 

[jabelltulsa]

We are to follow what Jesus Christ tells us to do. What if the church tells us to do something that contradicts the bible? You need to check what your church teaches to make sure it lines up with the bible. If not, the church is wrong on that issue.

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I love that you put this reading from Sacred Scripture. It is good.

Now, understand the context of it. Paul is trying to reason with the Jews in Thes. by using Scripture (OT, by the way). He is showing how Christ has fulfilled the OT prophesies. Paul was qualifying Christ as the Messiah. The Jews in Thes. would not have it.

Those in Berea searched Sacred Scripture (OT) and saw that Christ truly was the Messiah since he had fulfilled the OT prophesies. They were right in doing this. Also, they were following Paul’s interpretation of the OT in regards to Christ. Paul was the teacher. He was appointed this position by Christ himself.

The Church’s teachings will never contradict Sacred Scripture. We can check the Sacred Scripture against Sacred Tradition, but they will never contradict each other.

We are to listen to the Church. If not, we will not receive God’s word. If the apostles had decided not to go to the trouble of teaching all nations, then we would not have what we have today. God, in his Mercy, chose men who would do this. He also protected them from error. He still does this today in His Church. This is not private interpretations, but the Church’s interpretations. Without the Church’s interpretations, we will err.

Would the Bereans been taught about Christ without Paul? Would you NOT be taught about Christ because you reject His Church’s Authority?

Surely you see that the apostle Paul was doing his job devoutly. This is what the Church does today.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Who is the tricker here. The bible specifically states that baptism is NOT part of the gospel.

1Co 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}

Frodo!

No, it doesn’t say that. The only conclusion you can make out of it is that preaching gospel doesn’t equal to baptising, which is of course correct.

No there isn’t an oppostition between the church and Jesus Christ Himself. Does a pew get you to heaven? NO. But it’s in the church. The church is NOT the Savior, Jesus Christ is. Only He can save us. When we accept Him into our hearts we become part of the true church, we become born again.

Sure, Jesus is our saviour but he gave us the Church and when we are saved we are save **BY **Him **THROUGH **the Church.

You must understand that our understand of Church is different from yours. What you call churches we call ecclesial communities. The Church that Jesus found on Earth is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church or simply the Catholic Church.

Does your church perform miracles?

EVERY day! In fact, probably every hour. The greatest miracle is when the bread and wine turns to Jesus Christ - body, divinity and soul.

Of course there are many people in the history of the Church through which God performed miracles. One that comes to my mind is Padre Pio.

Why didn’t they say you must be baptized to be saved? No, they said “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house”

Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

The baptism always comes AFTER salvation. It is not part of salvation.

Nope, baptism is necessary for salvation.

1 Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you – not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience – through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16
‘Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

You might also be interested in the fact that your believe that baptism is a mere symbol is a modern invention. If you go back in time you will not find such teaching. Even Martin Luther believed that baptism is necessary. He said: “Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted” (Large Catechism 4:6).

Now take a look at the early Church Fathers.

Hermas
“‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr
“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

(continued…)

 

[jmcrae]

Ok, that verse actually is in the bible, but there still is no John 22 in the bible. I won’t ague that the Lord may have given them permission, but they also performed miracles. I will have to look into it more. Does your church perform miracles?

YES.

Hundreds and hundreds of miracles have been documented in the Catholic Church, in every place and at every time. I know people who have received miraculous healings in my own parish, including someone who was raised from the dead.

 

[Philthy]

That is a commandment to baptize them, it doesn’t say that it’s for salvation. I didn’t say that we aren’t supposed to get baptized, I said that it’s not part of your salvation. Neither is communion.

This is a foreign, extrabiblical concept to me - I was under the impression that all of the commandments dealt exclusively with our salvation. Could you please list other commandments of Christ (OT or NT) which are “not part of our salvation”?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Tertullian
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).

“We have, indeed, a second [baptismal] font which is one with the former [water baptism]: namely, that of blood, of which the Lord says: ‘I am to be baptized with a baptism’ [Luke 12:50], when he had already been baptized. He had come through water and blood, as John wrote [1 John 5:6], so that he might be baptized with water and glorified with blood. . . . This is the baptism which replaces that of the fountain, when it has not been received, and restores it when it has been lost” (ibid., 16).

** Hippolytus**
“[P]erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible. For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us: ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, fly to the water, for this alone can extinguish the fire. He who will not come to the water still carries around with him the spirit of insanity for the sake of which he will not come to the living water for his own salvation” (Homilies 11:26 [A.D. 217]).

Origen
“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

Cyprian of Carthage
“[T]he baptism of public witness and of blood cannot profit a heretic unto salvation, because there is no salvation outside the Church.” (Letters 72[73]:21 [A.D. 253]).

“[Catechumens who suffer martyrdom] are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism. Rather, they are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood, concerning which the Lord said that he had another baptism with which he himself was to be baptized [Luke 12:50]” (ibid., 72[73]:22).

Cyril of Jerusalem
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.
. . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ Indeed, the martyrs too confess, by being made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men [1 Cor. 4:9]” (Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]).

Gregory Nazianz
“[Besides the baptisms associated with Moses, John, and Jesus] I know also a fourth baptism, that by martyrdom and blood, by which also Christ himself was baptized. This one is far more august than the others, since it cannot be defiled by later sins” (Oration on the Holy Lights 39:17 [A.D. 381]).

Pope Siricius
“It would tend to the ruin of our souls if, from our refusal of the saving font of baptism to those who seek it, any of them should depart this life and lose the kingdom and eternal life” (Letter to Himerius 3 [A.D. 385]).

John Chrysostom
“Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood” (Panegyric on St. Lucian 2 [A.D. 387]).

(Continued…)