How To Get To Heaven When You Die

  • Thread starter Thread starter xfrodobagginsx
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Ambrose of Milan
“But I hear you lamenting because he [the Emperor Valentinian] had not received the sacraments of baptism. Tell me, what else could we have, except the will to it, the asking for it? He too had just now this desire, and after he came into Italy it was begun, and a short time ago he signified that he wished to be baptized by me. Did he, then, not have the grace which he desired? Did he not have what he eagerly sought? Certainly, because he sought it, he received it. What else does it mean: ‘Whatever just man shall be overtaken by death, his soul shall be at rest [Wis. 4:7]’?” (Sympathy at the Death of Valentinian [A.D. 392]).

Augustine
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

“I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person. . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:21:28 [A.D. 400]).

“That the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by suffering is supported by a substantial argument which the same blessed Cyprian draws from the circumstance of the thief, to whom, although not baptized, it was said, ‘Today you shall be with me in paradise’ [Luke 23:43]. Considering this over and over again, I find that not only suffering for the name of Christ can supply for that which is lacking by way of baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart * if, perhaps, because of the circumstances of the time, recourse cannot be had to the celebration of the mystery of baptism” (ibid., 4:22:29).

“When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body. . . . All who are within [the Church] in heart are saved in the unity of the ark [by baptism of desire]” (ibid., 5:28:39).

“[According to] apostolic tradition . . . the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal. This is the witness of Scripture too” (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:24:34 [A.D. 412]).

“Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’ [Matt. 10:32]” (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).

Pope Leo I*
“And because of the transgression of the first man, the whole stock of the human race was tainted; no one can be set free from the state of the old Adam save through Christ’s sacrament of baptism, in which there are no distinctions between the reborn, as the apostle [Paul] says, ‘For as many of you as were baptized in Christ did put on Christ; there is neither Jew nor Greek . . . ‘ [Gal. 3:27–28]” (Letters 15:10[11] [A.D. 445]).

Fulgentius of Ruspe
“From that time at which our Savior said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], no one can, without the sacrament of baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without baptism, pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and life eternal” (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).
 
I feel sorry for catholics who are caught up in so much legalism. Why not just believe what the bible says to do to get to heaven. In 99% of all verses that deal with salvation, baptism isn’t even meantioned. If it’s so important for salvation, don’t you think that it would be meantioned?
Perhaps if the bible was the only means of God communicating to the faithful you might have a point. But it isnt the only means - he also left his spirit to guide the apostles and their successors.
Dont you think if God really meant the bible to be our rule book that He could have done a MUCH better job of getting things written in an organized format? Look at how different all the theologies from the various “bible only” communities are.
 
That is a commandment to baptize them, it doesn’t say that it’s for salvation. I didn’t say that we aren’t supposed to get baptized, I said that it’s not part of your salvation. Neither is communion.
Every commandment is for our salvation: otherwise they would be called “suggestions,” rather than “commandments.”
 
Who does it say shall be damned? He that believeth not. Does it say He that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned? No. It says He that believeth not shall be damned.

Nice try.
Believe what?
We are to follow what Jesus Christ tells us to do. What if the church tells us to do something that contradicts the bible? You need to check what your church teaches to make sure it lines up with the bible. If not, the church is wrong on that issue.

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
You might want to read this: Why the Bereans rejected sola scriptura.
I feel sorry for catholics who are caught up in so much legalism. Why not just believe what the bible says to do to get to heaven. In 99% of all verses that deal with salvation, baptism isn’t even meantioned. If it’s so important for salvation, don’t you think that it would be meantioned?
Well, Trinity is mentioned in even less cases. Actually, nowhere…
The main implicit mention of the trinity is would still be less then 99% of the Bible or the NT.

So, my guess is that Trinity is simply unimportant?

NO! Your logic is false. The Bible says that Baptism saves, the early Christians believed that…yet you ignore those verses and all the testimonies just because it’s not written all over the Bible? 🤷

In Christ,
~Gandalf (what a coincidence, right? 😉 )
 
Frodo, it’s been amply shown that baptism is required for salvation by Sacred Scripture, and many verses have been quoted to demonstrate this. Same with the other differences between our beliefs that you have brought up. Yet, you persist in basing your beliefs on your interpretation (or, more likely, one you were taught) of certain verses to the exclusion of all others. Now, if you are truly a Bible believing Christian who holds that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, how can you continue to twist the meaning a verse to contradict what another verse, frequently spoken by Jesus Himself, plainly states?

You, my misguided friend, are a living, walking, talking paradox. If you’re going to be a Christian, you have to believe the whole of the New Testament, not just the parts of it that support a man-made theology rather than the one left to us by our Lord and Savior. You have argued certain points which have been refuted by Scripture, and when you cannot counter these arguments, you change the subject. Rather than continuing to bring up new subjects, for the sake of your immortal soul, please go back through this thread, study and meditate on what has been said here, and pray that God will send His Holy Spirit to guide you into His complete truth.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimG
You might start by reading the words of Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46 and decide whether you will be among the sheep or the goats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx
I am a sheep…baaaaahaaaha
"JimG:
And what makes you a sheep, according to Jesus’ words in Matthew 25:31-46?

What is it that JESUS says will get you into heaven in this passage?
I know Him and hear His voice and understand when He is speaking to me. I have a genuine relationship with Him. Do you?

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Yes, I have a genuine relationship with Him. But I note that you completely ignored both my question, and Jesus’ words in the referenced passage of Matthew 21:35-46. On what is Jesus basing his judgment?
 
xfrodobagginsx,

I didn’t really read your OP or any of the other posts on this thread, however I decided that it would be fun to vote in the poll. I, of course, voted for BY TRUSTING IN “THE CHURCH”. The reason is because the Church is closest to Christ’s heart, with the possible exception of his mother, who he left to care for her. The Church guides us and leads us to good pastures - makes sure that we don’t eat from poisoned ones.

It was established by Christ himself:
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
It was entrusted to his mother:
Jn 19:26-27:
When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. 27 After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.
It was born out of his own side:
Jn 19:35:
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side, and immediately there came out blood and water.
Cf.
Gn 2:22:
22 And the Lord God built the rib which he took from Adam into a woman: and brought her to Adam.
Peter was its first shepard:
Jn 21:15-17:
When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. 17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.
Cf.
Ez 34:19:
23 AND I WILL SET UP ONE SHEPHERD OVER THEM, and he shall feed them, even my servant David: he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
And he won’t ever leave it without a shepard - and he won’t let it disappear from the earth, until possibly the last days for he said:
Jn 12:32:
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself. 33 (Now this he said, signifying what death he should die.)
For more information I entreat you to read St. Francis de Sales’ Pamphlets to the Chablais also known as The Catholic Controversy. The converted 72,000 Calvinists.

By the way what do you think of Tolkein - he was a catholic. 😉

Catholig
 
Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx
“We are to follow what Jesus Christ tells us to do. What if the church tells us to do something that contradicts the bible? You need to check what your church teaches to make sure it lines up with the bible. If not, the church is wrong on that issue.”
This is a common Protestant way of thinking, and totally wrong for numerous reasons. First of all, 2 Peter 3:16 makes it abundantly clear that the Bible is NOT self-explanatory. Matthew 16:17-19, and 1 Timothy 3:15 show the validity of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Also, Proverbs 3:5 tells us to trust in the Lord with all our hearts, and not lean on our own understanding. So, what would be a more accurate statement would be, “If your personal interpretation of the Bible does not line up with what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, has always taught, and always will teach, then your personal interpretation of the Scriptures is wrong on that issue.” Jesus established an authoritative Church. Martin Luther (whose authority was self-given) declared the Bible to be the sole rule of faith. So, the question is not Church vs. Bible, or my interpretation vs. yours. The question is, who do you follow, Jesus Christ or Martin Luther?
The phrase, “Word of God,” is NOT synonymous with Bible and is NEVER in reference to the Bible alone, when used in the Bible.
 
The phrase, “Word of God,” is NOT synonymous with Bible and is NEVER in reference to the Bible alone, when used in the Bible.
The phrase “Word of God” is actually a reference to the person of Jesus Christ, and to the sayings of Jesus Christ (bearing in mind that Jesus Christ is also the Author of the Old Testament, and that the commandments therein came originally from Him); not to any book, per se, though of course His words are indeed recorded in the Scriptures, as well. Scripture is therefore a subset of the Word of God, but by no means the totality of it.

We encounter the Word of God in its totality at the Catholic Mass. 🙂
 
Church Militant says: <>

The Bibie says, in 1 Peter 3:21: “Baptism doth also now save us.”

Who is right: Church Militant or the Bible?
 
Church Militant says: <>

The Bibie says, in 1 Peter 3:21: “Baptism doth also now save us.”

Who is right: Church Militant or the Bible?
When did he say that? I got the impression that he was defending it.

Catholig
 
Church Militant says: <>

The Bibie says, in 1 Peter 3:21: “Baptism doth also now save us.”

Who is right: Church Militant or the Bible?
I think Church Militant was quoting someone else - I’m pretty sure he is a faithful Catholic.
 
<<Church Militant says: <>

The Bibie says, in 1 Peter 3:21: “Baptism doth also now save us.”

Who is right: Church Militant or the Bible?
—End Quote—
When did he say that? I got the impression that he was defending it.>>

It is very easy to lose track of who said what, and I realized after I had sent this that Church Militant probably didn’t say this, but was quoting someone else.

For my error, I apologize.

However, the statement, “Therefore baptism does not save” is flat-out contradicted by the Word of God.
 
That’s odd, this seems to have been the only place that this is recorded to have happened in the New Testament. It certainly appears that it was a single occurrence as a sign to the Jewish believers that Gentiles could come to Christ w/o circumcision.On that occasion…Since when is baptism, which is commanded by Christ Himself and plainly preached as necessary to salvation (ibid) suddenly classed as “a work of the law”?

That has to be some of the most twisted theology I have ever seen.And? We are talking here about the message of salvation, which was preached by the apostles beginning on the day of Pentecost. Since Jesus was already glorified…your citation does not apply.Sealed how? What did they do that sealed them?
Romans 6:4 For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead.But nowhere in the Word of God does it say by a profession of faith alone. (Ibid: Acts 2:38, 22:16)So Baptism has no merit and is not required to be born again? Why then did Christ Himself command it?!
Matthew 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.The bolded words in red refute you by your own citation.
You will never be fixed…willfully ignorant you are 🤷
 
Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx
“We are to follow what Jesus Christ tells us to do. What if the church tells us to do something that contradicts the bible? You need to check what your church teaches to make sure it lines up with the bible. If not, the church is wrong on that issue.”
This is a common Protestant way of thinking, and totally wrong for numerous reasons. First of all, 2 Peter 3:16 makes it abundantly clear that the Bible is NOT self-explanatory. Matthew 16:17-19, and 1 Timothy 3:15 show the validity of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Also, Proverbs 3:5 tells us to trust in the Lord with all our hearts, and not lean on our own understanding. So, what would be a more accurate statement would be, “If your personal interpretation of the Bible does not line up with what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, has always taught, and always will teach, then your personal interpretation of the Scriptures is wrong on that issue.” Jesus established an authoritative Church. Martin Luther (whose authority was self-given) declared the Bible to be the sole rule of faith. So, the question is not Church vs. Bible, or my interpretation vs. yours. The question is, who do you follow, Jesus Christ or Martin Luther?
The phrase, “Word of God,” is NOT synonymous with Bible and is NEVER in reference to the Bible alone, when used in the Bible.
The CC changes what it teaches on a regular basis. 🤷
 
The Ten suggestion? :doh2:
Paul had this response to the opposers of his day…

Romans 3:31 KJV 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Looks like you would have been one of them. :eek:
 
That is a commandment to baptize them, it doesn’t say that it’s for salvation. I didn’t say that we aren’t supposed to get baptized, I said that it’s not part of your salvation. Neither is communion.
You’re ignoring the plain statements of other passages on baptism and salvation.
Acts Chapter 2:38: And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts Chapter 22:16: And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
Ok, that verse actually is in the bible. I won’t ague that the Lord may have given them permission, but they also performed miracles. I will have to look into it more. Does your church perform miracles?
Is the Pope Catholic?
Who is the tricker here. The bible specifically states that baptism is NOT part of the gospel.

1Co 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize
, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}Again… a selective choice of passage that ignores the context on this topic in the New Testament.
Why didn’t they say you must be baptized to be saved? No, they said “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house”

**Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. **
The baptism always comes AFTER salvation. It is not part of salvation.

**And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.**Not according to the context of all the New Testament passages on salvation that touch upon baptism.
Who does it say shall be damned? He that believeth not. Does it say He that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned? No. It says He that believeth not shall be damned
.Twisted scripture, when the meaning is plainly stated. Again…ignoring and preaching from selected texts while ignoring others that are of equal import.
I feel sorry for catholics who are caught up in so much legalism.
I haven’t seen any legalism. I see Church practices and beliefs that are based upon the Word of God. Unlike what you have preached here…
Why not just believe what the bible says to do to get to heaven.
I do… I just do not believe your all too fallible interpretation of what the Bible says.
In 99% of all verses that deal with salvation, baptism isn’t even meantioned. If it’s so important for salvation, don’t you think that it would be meantioned?
That’s odd…I don’t think that you can support that statistic from the Word of God. Moreover, we have already shown you that the Word of God plainly states the need for baptism.
  1. Our Lord says plainly that “5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)
  2. Matthew 28:19 plainly commands us to baptize.
    19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
  3. You have conveniently tried to ignore these passages and their plain meanings as well as others that refute your belief. If you want to know the Biblical truth (since so far as I can tell that is your only accepted source) then you read, study, and accept all passages that are related to this issue in the Word of God and then base your beliefs upon that consensus, not the modern teachings of some men.
 
Why not go by the word of God as Jesus Himself did as an example to you?

We live by the word of God…the bible.

Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
If this was true of your belief system, you would have a more balanced one based upon all the passages that we have discussed…but so far that is not the case.
Does it say “the church” is a lamp unto my feet? No, thy Word. The bible is.
Ps 119:105 ¶ NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. {lamp: or, candle}
(KJV)
And Catholics believe every word of what that Bible verse says…we just do not believe your modern and errant interpretation of that verse. What then does 1st Timothy 3:15 say is the pillar and ground of the truth? There’s no confusion in that verse…none at all.
We are to make sure that what our church teaches lines up with the word of God or the church is wrong.
By all means! But you have grossly failed to do that, both in your “way of salvation” message, and in your teachings concerning baptism. I expect more from someone who tells me that they believe only what the Bible says.
Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Then knock yourself out! By all means! But don’t base your beliefs on part of the Word of God…read all of it and believe what it teaches. Believe what it really says…
My eternal life is in Christ Jesus alone, not the church or baptism or good deeds, but what He did for me on the cross to pay for my sins.
You just summed up the way a Catholic would his own salvation.👍
 
I think Church Militant was quoting someone else - I’m pretty sure he is a faithful Catholic.
<<Church Militant says: <>

The Bibie says, in 1 Peter 3:21: “Baptism doth also now save us.”

Who is right: Church Militant or the Bible?
—End Quote—
When did he say that? I got the impression that he was defending it.>>

It is very easy to lose track of who said what, and I realized after I had sent this that Church Militant probably didn’t say this, but was quoting someone else.

For my error, I apologize.

However, the statement, “Therefore baptism does not save” is flat-out contradicted by the Word of God.
👍 No problem guys.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top