How To Get To Heaven When You Die

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Catholig said:
Frodobaggins - no it’s not. Yes, honor and worship Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and second person of the Trinity - but do it by honoring his Church, which he founded. His bride, who he bore out of his side. Who he instructed his mother to protect. Who he sent the Holy Ghost to Teach. Who he put Peter in charge of. Who he edified with the blood of Martyrs and Saints. Who he told his disciples to preach.

Seriously I double-dog dare you to read the St. Francis de Sales’ The Catholic Controversy
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. I guarantee that if you read it - even if you don’t convert on the spot - you’ll have a lot to think over, and it’ll make for months of very interesting dialog with your pastor as he tries to refute it for you. 😉

CatholigYa think he’s got the guts? I don’t know man…he talks a good game, but…I bet he won’t read it and especially won’t do so after praying to the Holy Spirit to guide him into all truth.

Lord Jesus Christ, I beg you to send your Spirit to encourage this young man to have the courage to read St. Francis’ booklet and allow that same Holy Spirit to speak to him concerning things that so far he has rejected due to the teachings of men.

We know that it is your will O Lord that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, and so we praise you that we are able to pray with the assurance that this is certainly in your will.
In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen :signofcross:
 
xfrodobagginsx said:
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This verse doesn’t say that baptism saves. Look at the explanation of the verse. That which is born of flesh is flesh (water represents fleshly birth, the mother’s womb contains water),
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I almost laughed the first time I heard someone propose the “born of water” represents the “fleshly birth” or the breaking of water. Due to the complete lack of a single instance where this term is used to represent physical birth and the numerous times other terms are used (ie, born of women) it simply doesnt have a shred of respectability. In addition, when you look at verses such as Titus 3:5 which follows the same formula “He saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit” it becomes obvious that the former interpretation is nothing more than wishful thinking.
 
xfrodobagginsx said:
None of them deal exclusively with our savation except for the one telling us to believe on the Son of God.

Joh 3:36 (NKJV) “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

I believe on the Son. Do I have eternal life? The bible says I do. Do you believe on the Son?
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Frodo -
Just stop and think for a second: does you obedience to the 10 Commandments “deal with” your salvation? Of course it does - if you are not obeying them, can you really say that you “believe in the Son”? I can tell you what Christ says: “Whoever has my commands and observes them is the one who loves me and whoever loves me will be loved by my Father and I will love him and reveal myself to him.” Note that such language speaks of an ONGOING relationship - observes, will be loved, I will love, etc.
All of your salvation quotes are great except that you read into them that they are the completeness of salvation. You assume that since salvation is instantaneous, complete and permanent when one comes to faith if you are “saved by faith alone” and that that you cannot also be “saved” by baptism or by confession or by Holy communion or anthing else. You will ignore Christ’s admonitions to the contrary and explain them away. Christ explicitly tells us that if we dont forgive others their trespasses that neither will our Father forgive us ours (Matt6:14?). Forgiving others who sin against us is a LIFETIME commitment - its not over in an instant. “He who endures to the end will be saved” Somehow you must come to embrace ALL of what is taught regarding salvation - not simply the parts you wish to embrace. When you do that I think that you will find that we have been saved, we are being saved, and we hope to be saved. At least that is what Paul preached.
One final thing regarding your Romans 10:9-10 citation. This section or Romans is dealing primarily with the UNIVERSALITY of salvation and is not explicitly addressing how we are saved in the manner you are quoting. That is why Paul speaks of “both Jews and Greeks alike” about 12 times. He is addressing that the offer of salvation is to ALL people, not simply the Jews, Gods chosen people. It is also why, in verse 10:13 Paul also says, “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved” If we were to take that verse at face value the way you have used Romans 10:9-10, it would immediately contradict it, wouldnt it? It might leave one wondering, do I simply need to call on the name of the Lord? But that is not what Paul is trying to say. His emphasis is not that “all you need to do is call on the lord to be saved”, but the emphasis is on WHOEVER calls…will be saved. The offer is universal - that is the point. If you read over the entire section you will see more clearly what I mean.
 
Okay, we’re been off-topic for a long time now. Frodobaggins, can you please answer my question from several pages ago? The question about my two year old boy? He’s presently incapable of faith — he cannot yet “accept Jesus as savior.” God forbid that the Lord should take him tonight — are you saying that he would not enter heaven? That’s what “faith alone” means, correct? There’s NO other way to be saved but to make an act of faith? So you believe that children who die too young to have faith are doomed? Correct? Or if not, why not? What saves them?
 
I’ll use the Words of Apostle Peter.
Acts of the Apostle Chapter 2 verse 37-42:
37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39* For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.” 40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. 42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
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Lorrie said:
I’m one of the people that voted for “the Church”. I believe that everything the Church stands for is the truth, and yes, this includes Jesus Christ Himself. It’s kind of hard to say one or the other when, to me, they both mean the same.
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Yes, I choose not to vote since it wasn’t a mutliple choice.

One needs to trust in Christ, but trusting in Chist and trusting in the Church which Christ left in authority over us are not mutually exclusive. And in fact, Voting for trusting in the Church includes trusting in Christ whereas trusting in Christ does not include the Church, which scripture tells us is the pillar and foundation of truth.

If it would not be so completely misunderstood and possibly quoted to show how ignorant Catholics are, I would have voted as you did:thumbsup:

God bless,
Maria
 
djrakowski said:
I truly accepted Jesus into my heart, and I completed the promises of my baptism when I was received into the Catholic Church.

I believe, as the Bible says, that baptism is necessary for salvation. Am I still a ‘saved’ Christian?

I believe, as the Bible says, and as the consistent tradition of Catholicism (and Orthodoxy) have taught from the beginning, that Jesus Christ is substantially present in the Holy Eucharist. Am I still a ‘saved’ Christian?

I believe, as the Bible says, that faith without works is dead. Am I still a ‘saved’ Christian?

I believe, as the Bible says, that the church is the pillar and ground of truth. Am I still a ‘saved’ Christian?

I believe, as the Bible says, that a person cannot be saved without obeying the commands of Jesus Christ. Am I still a ‘saved’ Christian?

In other words, do I have to throw away any of my Catholic (and Biblical) beliefs to be considered a ‘saved’ Christian, or am I going to hell for holding them?
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Well I have to say, when I responded, I didn’t see how long the thread was. But since I want to continue to read and not loose my place, I am quoting this post, since I think it was a good one:thumbsup: and will continue to read this later.

I can’t wait to find out the answer to this post:D

God Bless,
Maria
 
Okay…

I just pruned over 60 grossly off topic posts from this thread.

Some were lacking in the level of charity that most of you guys know I expect here.

Stay on the topic of salvation. “How To Get To Heaven When You Die”

If you have any questions as to what is allowed, please see the Forum Rules, Banned Topics, Charity, Guidelines for Posting in the Apologetics Forum, Respect for the Reputation of Persons.

All of these posts should get across what is expected here in this discussion.
Your servant in Christ,
MF
 
xfrodobagginsx said:
Immersion is the correct mode. Head in water (represents His death, burial) head back out of the water (represents His resurrection)
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Why are you so concerned about the mode of something that has no bearing on your salvation? :confused:
 
Gamera said:
Okay, we’re been off-topic for a long time now. Frodobaggins, can you please answer my question from several pages ago? The question about my two year old boy? He’s presently incapable of faith — he cannot yet “accept Jesus as savior.” God forbid that the Lord should take him tonight — are you saying that he would not enter heaven? That’s what “faith alone” means, correct? There’s NO other way to be saved but to make an act of faith? So you believe that children who die too young to have faith are doomed? Correct? Or if not, why not? What saves them?
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Gamera, I hope you don’t mind if I piggyback onto your question… I have two children with severe mental impairments. They’re not presently able to verbalize an acceptance of Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior. What’s their fate in frodo’s system?

(Of course, as a Catholic, I already know our answer… and it is the most excellent, Biblical answer to this problem…)
 
MariaG said:
Well I have to say, when I responded, I didn’t see how long the thread was. But since I want to continue to read and not loose my place, I am quoting this post, since I think it was a good one:thumbsup: and will continue to read this later.

I can’t wait to find out the answer to this post:D

God Bless,
Maria
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Funny thing is, Maria (my dear Bible-thumpin’, Spirit-filled Catholic Christian sister!), I asked this very early in the thread, and haven’t received a specific answer to any specific point in it. I would like to know how far a Christian has to stray from what frodo regards as true doctrine before he’s guilty of no longer being a Christian.
 
The mentally impaired who are bpatized and are incapable of mortal sin certainly go to Heaven. Why shouldn’t they?

What is more astounding than people who believe in Limbo are the amount of people who don’t believe that Baptism saves.

Remember what Jesus said “For in the measure that you mete out justice it will be meted unto you.”

Just ask yourself Would it be Just for a Baptized person who doesn’t mortally sin to Not to go to Heaven?

Of course Not!

Case Closed.
 
I am the one who voted “by praying to Mary”. To Jesus, through Mary. However, I have also made the Heroic Act Of Love to Mary, for the Poor Souls, so must undergo my full time in Purgatory. 😦
 
xfrodobagginsx said:
Baptism does NOT save.
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If Baptism does not save how do you explain this passage for* 1 Peter 3:21*

21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God * for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (NAB BIble)
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (RSV Bible).*

and why did Jesus said this after his resurrection.

16 And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And seeing them they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. (Matthew 28:16-20)

Or what Peter preached in Acts Chapter 2 verse 37:

*37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, "**Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." 40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. 42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

Your own words put you at odds with Scripture, xfrodobagginsx.

To get to Heaven when you die, you must repent and be baptized in the Name of the Father, And of the Son and Of the Holy Spirit. You also must live a Christian faith by living out the Ten Commandments by keeping into mine your love for God, and your love for your neighbor.

For someone who advocate Scripture Alone, he is apparently ignore these important passages in the Bible. 🤷
 
<<Immersion is the correct mode. Head in water (represents His death, burial) head back out of the water (represents His resurrection)
—End Quote—
Why are you so concerned about the mode of something that has no bearing on your salvation? >>

That’s one of the things that ran me out of the Baptists.

Sunday morning: One had to be baptized by immersion with 100 proof texts.

Sunday evening: Baptism had nothing whatever to do with salvation with 100 proof texts.

Yes, I had been taught both all my life, but that was the first time they were ever juxtaposed.
 
So, Frodo, where are ya now?

We have a chance to get back on topic here and try to resolve this soteriolgical issue of yours.

I’m curious as to whether you’ll actually consent to carefully and prayerfully read The Catholic Controversy" as was suggested to you.

It would probably help clear up some of the mistakes in understanding the Catholic faith that you have displayed so far.
Your call…
 
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