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HailMary
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try Post #50
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try Post #50
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iamrefreshed
Guest
The big difference is that you believe that prayer is all you need to go to heaven. After I say it I could go out and murder and rape and I’d still go to heaven…according to you.
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djrakowski
Guest
Of course I have - don’t you remember the post in which I said I made a commitment to Christ as an evangelical and brought it to fullness when I became a Catholic?
1 Timothy 3:15 (NAB) - “But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”
I’m surprised that you, a Bible Christian, needed to be told that!
There’s no conflict, as Christ is the head of His Body, which is the Church (Ephesians 5:23, Colossians 1:18). So if you’re a member of His Church, you’re a member of His Body. Simple, and Biblical!
Not in this verse, no. But he mentions it in plenty of other places:
1 Timothy 3:15 states that the church, not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of truth.
Mark 16:16 says that there are two conditions for salvation: baptism and belief. Yet, there’s only one condition given for not being saved - unbelief.
James 2:14 speaks of the role of works in salvation.
Throughout the gospels, Our Lord speaks of the need to follow Him and obey His commandments. In John 14:15, Jesus says that if you love him, you will keep His commands and do what He says. This is indicated in other passages, including 1 Cor. 7:19, 1 John 5:3 and Matthew 19:17, among others.
It is only through the incarnation, birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that any of this has any meaning at all. Therefore, you’re setting up a dichotomy where none exists. It is through no other means that we come to Christ than in believing in Him, which includes, contrary to your claims, doing everything He commanded us.
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HailMary
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Problem: What about God the Father and the Holy Spirit?
I’ve said this before, I’ve NEVER heard any protestant ask, “do you have a personal relationship with God the Father or the Holy Spirit?”. I Wonder why?
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
There is no where in the bible that says that we can lose our salvation. It DOES give us assurance.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
If you can lose it, then do you Know that you have eternal life? No. You can’t lose it.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
We are SEALED by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemtion. What does it mean to seal something? You cannot unseal what God has sealed.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Believing on Christ and His gospel brings the Holy Spirit inside you showing God that you belong to Him. You cannot unseal what God has sealed.
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Earnest means “down payment”
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Gamera
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Sure it does. The Church is the body of Christ. If you aren’t in the Church, then you aren’t in the body of Christ. You seem to think these are two different things. They aren’t.
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HailMary
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are you serious?
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Gamera
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The Bible most certainly DOES say that we can lose God’s grace. Romans 11:22 which I quoted above makes that very, very clear. Nowhere does the Bible teach the man-made tradition of “once saved, always saved.”
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
Jesus Christ makes you the body of Christ, the church doesn’t do that. To be in the church in the spiritual sense is the body of Christ your right, but the church doesn’t make you that way, trusting in what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross to pay for your sins does. The church is NOT a building or denomination. It is made up of the true believers in Christ who have a genuine relationship with Him. That’s what He wants.
What does Jesus say to those who He throws into the lake of fire?
Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
He says I never knew you. You must have a genuine relationship with Jesus where you have trusted in what He did for you on the cross and you communicate directly to Him.
By the way, the reason that I don’t believe in praying to anyone accept Jesus and the Father is found in the bible as well. We also don’t need a priest to confess our sins to. We go directly to God.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and **one mediator **between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
A mediator is a go between and the bible says there is only ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
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djrakowski
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Yes, of course he’s serious. I was once a non-denominational evangelical, and in fact I’ve made just about every argument he’s made on this thread, and was thoroughly convinced that nothing could result in the loss of salvation.
This argument falls apart, however. Consider the situation in which a person has made a sincere commitment to Christ, and has lived a holy Christian life, and at some point slides into sin without repenting. The standard OSAS rejoinder is, “Well, it’s obvious that he was never truly saved to begin with.” In that sense, the formula becomes OSAS, unless you weren’t really saved to begin with…
So anyone could easily fool himself into thinking he’s saved, until it’s proven that he never really was. It’s a self-defeating theology.
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
…but if you have truly turned your heart and mind over to the Lord, you won’t do that, since those are the things which dictate what you do.
The war we fight starts in our mind…
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and **bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; **
Our thoughts dictate what we do, if we are submitted to God, we aren’t going to do those things.
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heisenburg
Guest
I know I have a job, I can tell I have a job because I can test the surrounding events. I have Assurance that I have a job.
If I loose my job, does that mean I never had a job to begin with?
OSAS also violates a very clear aspect of the bible. That we can test ourselves and KNOW we are saved. If we test ourselves on one day… And we come up ok, then we should always come up ok. If we later test ourselves and find we are not saved, then your answer would be, I was never saved to begin…
But I tested myself and the bible said I was saved…
Often response is, well, since you weren’t truly saved you couldn’t properly test ourselves…
But the bible says we CAN properly test ourselves.
Therefore, since you cannot test yourself to know for sure you are saved, then OSAS cannot be true…
This is because either the Bible is wrong, or OSAS is wrong.
Ill take the Bible of OSAS any day…
In Christ
If I loose my job, does that mean I never had a job to begin with?
OSAS also violates a very clear aspect of the bible. That we can test ourselves and KNOW we are saved. If we test ourselves on one day… And we come up ok, then we should always come up ok. If we later test ourselves and find we are not saved, then your answer would be, I was never saved to begin…
But I tested myself and the bible said I was saved…
Often response is, well, since you weren’t truly saved you couldn’t properly test ourselves…
But the bible says we CAN properly test ourselves.
Therefore, since you cannot test yourself to know for sure you are saved, then OSAS cannot be true…
This is because either the Bible is wrong, or OSAS is wrong.
Ill take the Bible of OSAS any day…
In Christ
I
Ilroy
Guest
A funny bit of irony in your choice of username…
Tolkien was a very devoted Catholic gentleman. His Hobbit/LOTR series of books was based somewhat on Catholic Christian teaching and biblical narrative.
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RobNY
Guest
Dear Frodo Baggins,
Nice name! I love Tolkien’s works, they’re really amazing books, and deep down, harbor much Christian symbolism.
Re: ability to lose salvation.
In St. Paul’s letter to the Galatians he is addressing a Christian community which is straying from the path. As such he is addressing Christians when he says,
Further, he addresses these Christians about the, “works of the flesh,” which include immorality of all types, as well as schism, and warns that, “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Gal 5:17-21). To lose one’s inheritance in the kingdom of God, which one gained through grace in Christ Jesus, can only mean that one has forsaken one’s salvation!
May God bless you and preserve you from all error.
P.S. J.R.R. Tolkien, the author of the Lord of the Rings, and the creator of the character which is your namesake, was a devout Catholic through his life. For Tolkien’s sake, at least, look into the richness of the faith that pervades and inspires his works.
Nice name! I love Tolkien’s works, they’re really amazing books, and deep down, harbor much Christian symbolism.
Re: ability to lose salvation.
In St. Paul’s letter to the Galatians he is addressing a Christian community which is straying from the path. As such he is addressing Christians when he says,
Hence Christians who abandon the gospel of grace have, ‘fallen from grace.’ It is a most elementary thing that we are saved by grace (e.g., Eph 2:8)-- one who has fallen from grace, then cannot be saved.
Further, he addresses these Christians about the, “works of the flesh,” which include immorality of all types, as well as schism, and warns that, “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Gal 5:17-21). To lose one’s inheritance in the kingdom of God, which one gained through grace in Christ Jesus, can only mean that one has forsaken one’s salvation!
May God bless you and preserve you from all error.
P.S. J.R.R. Tolkien, the author of the Lord of the Rings, and the creator of the character which is your namesake, was a devout Catholic through his life. For Tolkien’s sake, at least, look into the richness of the faith that pervades and inspires his works.
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
We absolutely worship the Father and the Spirit. When we accept Jesus Christ into our hearts He gives us His Holy Spirit to live inside of us and seal us (proving that we belong to Him) and allows us to be able to fellowship with the Father.
When we pray, we pray to the Father in the name of the Son, through the Holy Spirit.
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FCEGM
Guest
The problem is, frodo, your specific version of the “true gospel” is not known either in the earliest times of the Church (which is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic) or in Scripture (which is a product of that same Church).
You are, of course, not the first, nor will you be the last, to appear in this Forum to bring us poor benighted Catholics the “true gospel.”
You are adding to Scripture, I see. Where, precisely, is the above stated in the New Testament?
Sacred Scripture does assure us of God’s love for us, and His tender mercy. But it doesn’t assure us that we may be presumptuous about that love and mercy and judge ourselves vis-a-vis our acceptance of His salvation because we have prayed a prayer unknown either in its wording or its theology to Sacred Scripture and the early Church. We know HE is always faithful, but we must not presume that WE will always be faithful and respond positively to His fidelity. Since we cannot see into the future now and see what sins we may commit which may call into question the sincerity of a profession of our faith, we do not have assurance.
So, “once saved-always saved” is a presumption without all the evidence in, and a presumption apparently to be applied both to oneself (very liberally) and those we encounter who claim to have been “saved” (less liberally
).
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jabelltulsa
Guest
Under whose authority do you do this? You don’t seem to know enough about the Church that Christ himself founded, so why should I listen to you?
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
That’s not what He is saying. He is saying that they are trying to be justified by the works of the law OTHER than by grace through FAITH in Christ Jesus alone. By falling from grace, He means that they have fallen away from the true doctrine. They can be saved if they accept Jesus Christ through faith and not by works. The problem is that they are trusting in their works and not grace through faith.
As far as the works of the flesh is concerned…sin gets us into hell, but after we accept Jesus Christ we are no longer sinners in God’s eyes.
1Co 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
…But look what it says here:
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
true Christians/true believing catholics still sin, but we need to repent. We don’t lose our salvation over it.
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jabelltulsa
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I agree with the statement in bold … why don’t you? You said it.
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Gamera
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Right. One mediator between God and man: Jesus Christ. That’s exactly what Catholics believe. Our Catechism says it plainly:
“Christ Jesus [is] the one mediator between God and men,” CCC 1544.
“Only Christ is the true priest, the others being only his ministers,” CCC 1545.
“Christ, high priest and unique mediator, has made of the Church a kingdom, priests for his God and Father. The whole community of believers is, as such, priestly.” CCC 1546.
“Christ is the source of all priesthood: the priest of the old law was a figure of Christ, and the priest of the new law acts in the person of Christ” CCC 1548.
Why? Were you under the assumption that Catholics believed in some “other” mediator? We don’t.
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