How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Philthy]

Paul says "For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:13

Frodo’s says: This verse means that if you call upon the Lord just once in faith, not only will you be saved, but you will be irrevocably saved for all eternity - even apart from works like being obedient. There is nothing you can do to jeopardize your salvation and entrance into Heaven.

Christ says “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” Matt 7:21

How can Paul say that "everyone who calls upon the Lord will be saved while Christ says that NOT everyone who calls upon the Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven? The only possible way to resolve such an apparent contradiction is to recognize that “being saved” and “entering the kingdom of Heaven” are different. Just because one is saved when they call upon the Lord does not, during our earthly life, guarantee that they will go on to enter Heaven when they depart this life. And why not? Because they did not do the will of the Father and “bear good fruits. For every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire” Matt 7:19-20

“If today you hear His voice harden not your heart”

 

[jmcrae]

Of course we are to be baptized, go to church, do good deeds, take communion, but they are NOT part of your salvation.

Then what in Tarnation ARE they part of?

 

[manila]

Could someone clarify this for me? If you trust in Jesus, that practically implies a holy life. If one was not a Christian and still lived a holy life, I understand they still can enter heaven. What more do you need? (There’s too many pages to read…)

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

That’s hillarious!!! If I quote 5 verses from a chapter telling you that faith alone saves then you say that we have to look at the rest of the bible. If I take verses from the entire new testiment and show you that faith alone saves then I am accused of “cherry picking” verses out of the bible.

Show me one verse in the Bible that says faith **alone **saves you and I will leave the Church and convert to whichever denomination you ask me to go!

 

[japhy]

That’s hillarious!!! If I quote 5 verses from a chapter telling you that faith alone saves then you say that we have to look at the rest of the bible. If I take verses from the entire new testiment and show you that faith alone saves then I am accused of “cherry picking” verses out of the bible.

The problem is that you ignore the verses which would cause you to rethink your interpretation of the other verses. I could pick out a bunch of verses from the New Testament which, out of context and separated from the rest of the New Testament, establish a false proposition.

It’s like Philthy said: compare Romans 10:13 with Matthew 7:21, and you must come to a different conclusion than Romans 10:13 alone would lead you to. Furthermore, it would lead you to understand that if only those people enter the Kingdom of Heaven who do the will of the Father, it is possible to do something against the will of God (or else we’re all doing the will of God and thus we’ll all enter the Kingdom of Heaven), which means we have freedom of will.

Christians are judged by their works for God, not their bad deeds. Non-christians are judged by their bad deeds to determine which manner of judgement they will receive.

Can you support that from Scripture?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Show me one verse in the Bible that says faith **alone **saves you and I will leave the Church and convert to whichever denomination you ask me to go!

Hey - I was going to say that!

So, let’s have it, Mr Baggins. Please show us just one verse in the Bible that says we are saved by “faith alone.”

I still need the Scripture reference for “baptism is an outward sign of an inward change” too, while you’re at it, if you don’t mind.

 

[Philthy]

Of course we are to be baptized, go to church, do good deeds, take communion, but they are NOT part of your salvation.

Of course they are - they are simply different parts of salvation. Your stumbling block is that you believe that faith alone instantly brings you into the entirety of salvation for all time. But it doesnt (unless you happen to die making that confession - ie thief on the cross). Coming to faith in Christ is the entry into salvation, not the totality of it. It will be impossible to convince you of the salvific elements of Baptism, obedience, etc if you continue to view salvation as an instantaneous and complete and permanent event at the time one comes to faith in Christ.

frodo:

1. The verses I list say that by faith in Christ Jesus alone we are saved.

I say, “Amen” though I doubt you realize the subtle change in your proclamation to make it orthodox. Hint: What is the difference between “faith in Christ Jesus alone” and “faith alone in Christ Jesus”?

frodo:

1. Just because someone gets baptized after they accept Jesus into their hearts, does NOT mean that it was the baptism that saved them.
   You are assuming that it’s part of their salvation. I am saying that it’s BECAUSE OF their salvation.

Actually it is both! They do it as an act of faith (which is the result of their salvation), AND it contributes TO their salvation in a unique way. Again, you are assuming that once someone is “saved” by confessing Christ that God cannot add to that salvation.

frodo:

My take is that according to catholics, they have to do communion, baptism, belong to the church, have faith in Jesus and be a good person to get to heaven. The problem is that they are adding to what salvation is.

No. They are distinguishing being “saved” at a point in time during this life, and getting into heaven at the completion of this life. Be sure to read my comments on Matt 7:21 and Romans 10:13 where “being saved” and “getting into Heaven” are clearly distinguished.

frodo:

Even though we are told to do those other things, we are NEVER told that they save us. The only thing that we are told saves us is believing on Jesus Christ for salvation.

You know that is false. Peter specifically says that baptism saves you. We are told that faith, if it does not have works is dead and will not save you. (cf James 2) We are told that at the judgement each will be judged according to deeds (Matt) and that those who have done good will go to eternal life and those who did not will go to hell. And lastly we are told that unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood (cf John 6) that we do not have life within us. The fact that faith does indeed save us needs to be reconciled with all these other elements of salvation. Your message fails to reconcile all that is spoken of regarding salvation. That is the problem.

 

[deanarrca]

Again the problem stems from the idea that to be “saved” is a done deal once you have faith/believe on Christ. I think we are having a hard time understanding each other because Frodo (and most evengelical fundamentalists) believe in OSAS. Therefore they were already “saved” at the time they first believed then everything else was subsequent. Kind of true, if your were to die right after believing. The fact is you aren’t actually saved until you die and then go to heaven. We aren’t actually “saved” yet, it is a future event. When Frodo says “saved” he means they have the assurance of salvation that no matter what they do subsequent to that believing they are guaranteed heaven. Again Catholics look at slavation as a process. You could say you are “saved” so to speak, as soon as you believed and then if you past away, right then and there, assuming you had repented your sins with contrition, you would get to heaven. However, if after you believed then learned about Jesus’s command of baptism, you of course would get baptised. But if after learning about Christ’s commands you willfully refused baptism, at that point, a Catholic would say you lost salvation or at that point are in grave sin and would not get to Heaven. You are still Christian at least if you haven’t completely turned your back on Christ, but not a “saved” Christian. To a Catholic you could then later completely reject Christ and fall away and I guess cease to be Christian. To Catholics you can still be a Christian but not in a state of saving grace. To Frodo there is only one type of Christian and that is a “saved” Christian. Because the circular argument that if you could fall away (or refuse to obey Christ) then you weren’t saved to begin with.
So to a Catholic and why many voted "other in the original poll, is that Faith in Christ is just the beginning, you are saved as long as you stay on the narrow way, continue to follow Christ and obey his commands. it is not a done deal and not a one time event it is a continuing process.

Ok I hope I was somewhat clear

 

[Gamera]

1. The verses I list say that by faith in Christ Jesus alone we are saved.

No, none of them say faith ALONE. Youv’e quoted several verses expressing the importance of faith, but none of them – not even one — uses the phrase “faith ALONE.” That is your personal addition to God’s word.

 

[Gamera]

Hey - I was going to say that!

So, let’s have it, Mr Baggins. Please show us just one verse in the Bible that says we are saved by “faith alone.”

I still need the Scripture reference for “baptism is an outward sign of an inward change” too, while you’re at it, if you don’t mind.

Get in line. I’m still waiting for the chapter and verse that tell us the “age of accountability.”

 

[Gamera]

Actually, I take it back. I’ll be much more impressed by Frodobaggins producing a Scriptural reference that say we get to heaven simply “by trusting Jesus Christ alone as Lord and Savior.” I’ve read the Bible cover-to-cover and I’ve never seen that expression in it.

 

[Gamera]

Actually, I take it back. I’ll be much more satisfied with a Scriptural reference that say we get to heaven simply “by trusting Jesus Christ alone as Lord and Savior.” I’ve read the Bible cover-to-cover and I’ve never seen that expression in it.

 

[heisenburg]

OSAS can be proven false for no other reason than because you can’t know you are saved, despite the bible saying you can know

example:

1. A man ‘comes to Christ’ tests himself honestly against scripture and shows that he is Saved.
2. He lives this live for years, but then falls into hardship, and falls away from the faith, no longer goes to church, and generally no longer follows the way of Christ
3. He realizes he may be in the wrong, so he tests his actions and life against the bible, and finds he is NOT saved.

When presenting this problem to a Pastor, the pastor will say, well, he was never truely saved to begin with.

At which point the man returns, ‘But I tested myself when I was younger, The bible said I was saved’

the Pastor returns with, "well, since you were never truely saved, you were not accurately looking at scripture.

This poses a very interesting problem.

1. The man was honest in his testing, yet per the pastor, was unable to test himself. If he was unable to test himself, this goes against scripture because scripture says you CAN test yourself.
2. Since you cannot know if you were ‘in the right frame of mind’ how can you trust the test when you do take and pass. In other words, a "passing grade’ may not be a passing grade.

the Test is for all, not just the saved, otherwise whats the point.

The result is either scripture is wrong by saying you can test yourself, or OSAS is wrong because the very nature of OSAS means you cant test yourself honestly

This may seem like a very small thing, but it isn’t. The only way you can reconcile this is to say that you CAN loose your salvation. but in doing that, you indicate OSAS is false…

Either OSAS is true, or the Bible is true, they cannot both be true

In Christ

 

[mikeledes]

Romans 2:6-7

6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

John 5:28-29

28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Revelation 2:26

26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations

Galatians 6:7-10

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

The Bible is pretty clear on this issue, frodobaggins.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Linkowski]

So, to be saved, we must be baptized. Right?

Since not to be baptized is to never have been saved, in the first place. (Because to believe is to obey. They are not two separate things - the act of believing is the action of obedience. Believers are by definition obeyers.)

And faith comes about through obedience. It does not exist separately from obedience.

Agreed…BUT…baptism does not save. We are justified by faith prior to baptism and ALREADY have the Spirit of God within us. Baptism takes place after justification by faith.

 

[savedsinner]

So you’re gonna say works even though the bible says otherwise? Come on read it for yourself and give it up!!!

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

That passage is speaking of Baptism.

It matches up quite nicely with Acts 2:38

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

 

[savedsinner]

Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

**Acts 2:38 **- Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 - unless we are “born again” of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase “born again” is “anothen” which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where “anothen” is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.
**
Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47** - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?
**
Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5** - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

**Acts 9:18 **- Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias’ phrase “wash away” comes from the Greek word “apolouo.” “Apolouo” means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.

 

[savedsinner]

Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah’s ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase “not as a removal of dirt from the body” is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.

Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, “I have a baptism to be baptized with” referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).

Mark 10:38 - Jesus says “are you able…to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?,” referring to His death.

1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.

From
SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM

 

[jmcrae]

Agreed…BUT…baptism does not save.

No - it is only the cleansing from sins. But, if we are not cleansed from our sins, then we can’t go to Heaven - meaning that although we can be “saved” before we are baptized, we can’t go to Heaven without baptism, since nothing unclean can enter into Heaven.

We are justified by faith prior to baptism and ALREADY have the Spirit of God within us. Baptism takes place after justification by faith.

Baptism is the initial action in the process of sanctification. If we don’t become sanctified, we cannot remain “saved.” If someone makes a profession of faith, but never becomes sanctified in this life, he will go to Hell, and it will be as though he had never made any profession of faith - in other words, he was never saved, to begin with.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

The blood that Jesus shed on the cross washes us from our sins:

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, **purge your conscience **from dead works to serve the living God? {spot: or, fault}

1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.