How To Get To Heaven When You Die

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If we accept what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross to pay for our sins and believe that He died on the cross and rose fromt the dead and confess Him as Lord and Savior from our hearts, we are saved no matter what.
I want to take this to its logical conclusion, then. If you a) accept what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross to pay for your sins, and b) believe that He died on the cross and rose from the dead, and c) confess Him as Lord and Savior from your heart…

Why do you read the Bible anymore?
Why do you go to your church anymore (assuming you go to one)?
Why do you pray anymore?
Why do you even need Jesus anymore?

If you are assuredly saved no matter what, and nothing can change that, you’re pretty well off. You might as well just sit around and wait for death (or the second coming) so you can be in heaven with the Lord.

If you can be as disobedient a Christian as you like and still be saved, that is “cheap grace”. That is receiving a wedding invitation and showing up in rags (cf. Matthew 22). That is having Jesus as Savior but refusing him as Lord. That is not being his friend, by not keeping his commands (cf. John 15:14). Why would Paul have been writing about sinfulness to the churches he wrote to? Why would Jesus have declared to some of the churches in Revelation 2-3 that they might be cut off?

I cannot understand the “once saved, always saved” mentality. You’re not making it any easier.
 
An analogy to try and demonstrate the Catholic perspective of salvation.To show what faith and trust in Christ really means and how salvation is a journey not a one time event.

Path of Salvation Analogy
Code:
Large treacherous canyon separates a group of people from lets say Haven.
They have no hope. food is running out and they will die if they don’t get across the canyon to Haven. In Haven there is plenty of food, and life. But there is no path. All of a sudden a path is provided. Yeah they are “saved.” There now is hope. a path was provided. But they don’t know the way of the path or how to navigate the path. Enter Bob the Tour Guide. Bob to group of people, "I can get you safely across. ““Trust in me.” Have Faith in me and you will be saved. I have never lost a single person from my group.” Group of people trust in Bob the tour guide and have faith in him. They know that if they trust him he will keep his promise and guide them safely across/ But what next – They have to follow Bob the tour guide and obey what he says. The begin on their journey and follow Bob. He turns left, they turn left, he turns right, they turn right, He says wait and rest they wait and rest. Now the journey is tiring. Joe and Fred, members of the group think they see another path. An easier path. They decide to leave the group and go it on their own. They fall away from the group. They no longer have faith in Bob the A Tour Guide. They think they know better. Soon Fred is having second thoughts. He and Joe seem to be getting further and further away from the group and appear to be lost. Fred tells Joe he is turning back while he can still catch up and rejoin the group. Joe says go ahead but I trust myself I don’t need Bob or his help and Joe continues on by himself. It takes awhile but Fred finally makes it back to the group. Everyone rejoices for Fred was lost but now is found. (Just thought I would throw that in there). And as you know the story goes The group that trusted and had faith in Bob the Tour Guide made across safely to Haven. And Joe is still forever lost.

Note: Those in the Group didn’t just say they had faith and believed intellectually in Bob-- They trusted and then had to follow him. That is what trust is. Salvation is a process. It is a journey. The actual mechanism that “Saves” is God’s Grace Alone through Faith! What kind of faith- a working faith that ALL Christ says is true and you have to demonstrate that faith by obedience. What if the group said we believe you Bob and trust you but we are going to sit right here and not follow or obey- Everything is connected. The Group salvation was not a done deal once they believed they had to continue on the journey. They had to finish the journey trusting in Christ all along the way.Oh and Bob did not lose Joe or Fred they willfully chose to leave the group.
 
It’s this easy. If we accept what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross to pay for our sins and believe that He died on the cross and rose fromt the dead and confess Him as Lord and Savior from our hearts, we are saved no matter what.

Is this answer clear enough for you?
Really? Can you please show me a passage of scripture that specifically teaches this? You cannot. You can only teach this oversimplified different gospel by pulling verses out of their context and then offering a twisted interpretation that is meant to support the modern teachings of some men.

Every aspect of Catholic teaching on salvation is supported by both the Word of God and the verifiable writings of the early church. (As I and others have shown you again and again on this overlong thread.) We do not agree with errant doctrines of men that only began to blow through the church some 500 years ago and were condemned as errors even then.

IMO it is a very dangerous thing to oversimplify teachings on salvation the way your church has done. This is far too important to alter in order to ease the presentation of it. We have a responsibility to God to carry out His command in Matthew 28:19-20 and to accurately present it to the world.
[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
 
I just agree with your interpretation. It seems to me that catholics are dwelling on only very few verses and not the many, many others about salvation that don’t meantion baptism.
And yet you persist in doing precisely what you have accused Catholics of doing in that you dwell upon those passages that do not speak of the need for baptism for salvation, when it is very plainly there. How can you justify that and continue to assert that you hold the Bible as your sole authority for all that you believe? That seems grossly inconsistent.
You are right that merely believing that Jesus exists isn’t enough. I have repeatedly said that.
The believing on Christ or in Christ meantioned is placing your faith in Him for salvation. It is a genuine heart belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. You will not a find a conflict with the teachings of the Catholic Church with regard to merely believing in God as stated above.

The line in red is as good a summation as any of Catholic belief and teaching as any I’ve seen you post so far. Without it all else that we do is just going through motions…
Notice that the theif on the cross never got baptized. How do you explain this?
Already dealt with…
 
I want to ask you this question to all of those here. How many of you can HONESTLY tell me that you have a personal relationship with Jesus that is undeniable? I know I do as a born again believer He communicates with me in my Spirit. Can you say the same? I would like you to let me know.
[SIGN]Me![/SIGN]
 
I want to ask you this question to all of those here. How many of you can HONESTLY tell me that you have a personal relationship with Jesus that is undeniable? I know I do as a born again believer He communicates with me in my Spirit. Can you say the same? I would like you to let me know.
Absolutely. I cherish it more than my own life.
 
Absolutely. I cherish it more than my own life.
As did the countless Catholics before us who shed their blood as martyrs for Christ’s holy name. But I guess that doesn’t count as a “personal relationship with Jesus” because they didn’t treat Him like a child’s imaginary friend.
 
I want to take this to its logical conclusion, then. If you a) accept what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross to pay for your sins, and b) believe that He died on the cross and rose from the dead, and c) confess Him as Lord and Savior from your heart…

Why do you read the Bible anymore?

To grow in the faith, not to get to heaven.

Why do you go to your church anymore (assuming you go to one)?

To grow in the faith, not to get to heaven.

Why do you pray anymore?

To stay in fellowship with God, not to get to heaven.

Why do you even need Jesus anymore?

We need Him every second of every minute of every hour of every day.

If you are assuredly saved no matter what, and nothing can change that, you’re pretty well off. You might as well just sit around and wait for death (or the second coming) so you can be in heaven with the Lord.

**Yes I am well off. But I don’t just sit around and wait for death. I serve Jesus Christ because I already am saved and I love Him for the freedom He has given me. The great commission tells us to go into the entire world and preach the gospel, plus a believer who does nothing for Jesus Christ in this life will not have any rewards at the judgement, but He himself shall be saved. Those rewards are eternal and the man will suffer great loss.

1Co 3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss**: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If you can be as disobedient a Christian as you like and still be saved, that is “cheap grace”. That is receiving a wedding invitation and showing up in rags (cf. Matthew 22). That is having Jesus as Savior but refusing him as Lord. That is not being his friend, by not keeping his commands (cf. John 15:14). Why would Paul have been writing about sinfulness to the churches he wrote to? Why would Jesus have declared to some of the churches in Revelation 2-3 that they might be cut off?

**Like I said, it wasn’t cheap grace. It cost the life of the very Son of God. The wedding garnment is our salvation. Who ever said that I don’t keep His commandments? I follow His word. If I disobey Him, He chastens me. He may even choose to physically kill a non-fruitful believer which is what being “cut off” is talking about. Paul wanted the people to walk worthy of their calling. **
 
I cannot understand the “once saved, always saved” mentality. You’re not making it any easier.

** 1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.**

If you could lose it, then you don’t KNOW that you have eternal life.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Those who accept Jesus shall NEVER perish.

Believers are sealed with the Holy Ghost


Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

When we sin, we grieve the Holy Spirit in us and He will chasten us.

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

He gives us His Holy Spirit in our hearts:


2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Those who believe on the Son (put their faith in the Son) for salvation already have eternal life. Not will have, or could have, but HAVE eternal life.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

So according to Jesus, By placing my faith in Him and what He did to pay for MY sins on the cross, I HAVE eternal life. This is not conditional. He didn’t say “you have eternal life unless…” He said that you already have it, by how? Placing your faith in Him for salvation.

I do the things that Jesus tells me to do in His word, not to be saved, but BECAUSE I already AM saved. There is a big difference. I am free, you are under bondage and believing that works save, contrary to what the bible says. The Faith in Christ for salvation saves, the good works follow because you will have a changed heart toward God, that is what being born again is. You will have a genuine desire to serve the Lord, not to be saved, but because you Love Him.
 
You know that you have eternal life in that you are in Christ Jesus. If you reject Christ in the end, though, you will not be dragged kicking and screaming into heaven because you once responded to an altar call.
 
You know that you have eternal life in that you are in Christ Jesus. If you reject Christ in the end, though, you will not be dragged kicking and screaming into heaven because you once responded to an altar call.
Can I get an AMEN ?
 
Hi frodo -

Thank you for taking some time to respond.
Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? andin thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You see that they DID do works, but they weren’t for Jesus because they didn’t KNOW Jesus personally**.**
Yes I see alright: you have not resolved the contradiction between Romans 10:13 and Matt 7:21. They were among those who “called on the name of the lord” to be saved as stipulated by Paul in Romans 10:13 - the verse you keep spouting - but they, ultimately, were not granted admission into heaven. Why? I bolded it for you since you apparently missed it in favor of your personal interpretation that “they didnt know Jesus personally”.
Your unsatisfactory response gives me a good indication why you never addressed the post and re-post I sent you on the issue of obedience “having to do with our salvation”.
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frodo:
I ask this honestly, I know Him personally, do you?

**
Perhaps you should ask Him yourself whether he knows me. Im quite certain that you wouldnt accept my word for it. Your ability to dodge difficult questions with such tactics is glaring and unimpressive.
****I ask this honestly: Is this a question that will be fruitful to the thread or is it an attempt to avoid facing the difficulties inherent in your theology? **
 
** Of course we are to be baptized, go to church, do good deeds, take communion, but they are NOT part of your salvation**
You are suffering from an evangelical misunderstanding about salvation, frodo my lad.
**

“Baptism…now saves you”…

xfrodobagginsx;2707258 said:
**1) The verses that you list don’t say that WATER baptism saves.

xfrodobagginsx;2707258 said:
**2) The verses I list say that by faith in Christ Jesus alone we are saved. **
**

**

They don’t frodo. The word “alone” is not found in any of those verses. This is a Protestant addition to your theology.
** 3) Just because someone gets baptized after they accept Jesus into their hearts, does NOT mean that it was the baptism that saved them. Folks are listing verses that say that people were baptized after believing on Jesus Christ. Of course they were. **
Saving faith is not to be separated from baptism, just as it is not to be separated from walking in the commandments. They are all part of the same response of faith to grace.
** You are assuming that it’s part of their salvation. I am saying that it’s BECAUSE OF their salvation.**
Catholics don’t separate the two from one another.
** My take is that according to catholics, they have to do communion, baptism, belong to the church, have faith in Jesus and be a good person to get to heaven. The problem is that they are adding to what salvation is. Even though we are told to do those other things, we are NEVER told that they save us. The only thing that we are told saves us is believing on Jesus Christ for salvation. **
The Catholic understanding of salvation is that we are saved by grace, through faith. That faith is a working faith, that demonstrates itself throughout life by keeping the commandments of God and working together with the grace of God until the day of redemption. A person who does not obey Jesus does not have a saving faith.
** Believing on Jesus Christ means to place your faith and trust in what He did on the cross alone to save you. Then, AFTER you are saved, you get baptized because you are already saved and sealed by the Holy Ghost, you take communion because you are already saved and sealed by the Holy Ghost, you go to chuch to learn about God because you are sealed by the Holy Ghost.**
Catholics believe that, if a person is putting their faith and trust in Jesus, then they will do all that He has commanded. We also believe that there are many “sealings” of the HS, in addition to that received in baptism. We also don’t go to church to “learn about God”, although it does happen. We go to worship Him primarily, and participate in His saving grace. And yes, we do this because we are sealed,but there are also plenty of people that go to church who are not sealed.
We are saved UNTO good works, not BECAUSE OF good works
That is very Catholic of you to say!
**
You can’t have the Holy Ghost without being saved and these folks already had it. They were baptized AFTER they had been sealed by the Holy Ghost.**
Scripture teaches us that baptism and sealing occur at the same time. A is also true that the HS can seal whoever he wants, whenever he wants!
Of course we are to be baptized, go to church, do good deeds, take communion, but they are NOT part of your salvation.
I think we just have different understandings of salvation. Catholics believe that we must persevere until the end.
 
To grow in the faith, not to get to heaven.
To stay in fellowship with God, not to get to heaven.
We need Him every second of every minute of every hour of every day.
Why do you need to grow in faith if you’re already saved?
Why do you need to fellowship with God if you’re already saved?
Why do you need Jesus every second of your life if you’re already saved?

If we are Jesus’s friends if we keep his commands, then is it possible for us to not keep them and be saved? Does Jesus save those who are not his friends?
He may even choose to physically kill a non-fruitful believer which is what being “cut off” is talking about. Paul wanted the people to walk worthy of their calling.
That is most certainly not what Paul was talking about when he used the expression “cut off”. He is not talking about physical death, he is talking about covenantal exclusion:

For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race. (Rom 9:3)

Paul says he wishes he could be excluded from Christ so that his fellow Jews could be included.

You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree. (Rom 11:19-24)

He is not speaking of death and resurrection when he says “broken off” or “cut off” vs. “grafted into”. He is speaking of inclusion or exclusion from the covenant. You remain connected “only through faith” which is then qualified as “provided you continue in his kindness”.

This “cutting off” theme is found in a lot of OT Scripture; sometimes it means physical death, and sometimes it means covenantal exclusion (Exodus 12:15,19; 30:33,38; Leviticus all throughout, especially 17-23; Numbers 9:13; 15:30-31; 19:13,20; Deut 23:1).
 
Well, since Frodo is now saved with no possibility whatever of losing his salvation, he can now join the Catholic Church, and have the fruit of the fullness of the truth, without ever having to worry about losing his salvation.

It appears that joining a church–any church–will not affect his salvation one whit, so why not be Catholic?
 
I cannot understand the “once saved, always saved” mentality. You’re not making it any easier.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
The Greek word for “know” here is “eidete” – it means reasonable or intellectual knowledge. Tim Staples uses the example, “I *know *I’m going to get an A on my Greek exam.” He could get a B but he has a high level of assurance that he will do well. He has moral certitude rather than absolute certitude. Catholics can have moral certitude of their salvation but based on all the if/then clauses all over the New Testament, we along with Paul, do not judge ourselves but leave that to Christ, whose job it is…

Even in John I, the epistle from which you quote to demonstrate eternal security, the Evangelist says: "If what you heard from the beinning remains in you, then you remain in the Son and in the Father (2:24). Thus John indicates that it is possible to “not remain.”
If you could lose it, then you don’t KNOW that you have eternal life.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

**Those who accept Jesus shall NEVER perish. **
Jn 10:28 says that no man can “pluck them out” of Christ’s hand; it does not say that one cannot jump out of Christ’s hand of his own free will.
Believers are sealed with the Holy Ghost

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed
unto the day of redemption.

When we sin, we grieve the Holy Spirit in us and He will chasten us.

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

He gives us His Holy Spirit in our hearts:

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Those who believe on the Son (put their faith in the Son) for salvation already have eternal life. Not will have, or could have, but HAVE eternal life.
Some irrelevant quotes here but none of them say that we cannot forfeit eternal life. The life may be eternal, but this side of the grave, WE are not. God will never remove our free will, because without it we cannot love. The possibility of sin, even “unto death” remains.
**So according to Jesus, By placing my faith in Him and what He did to pay for MY sins on the cross, I HAVE eternal life. This is not conditional. He didn’t say “you have eternal life unless…” He said that you already have it, by how? Placing your faith in Him for salvation. **

I do the things that Jesus tells me to do in His word, not to be saved, but BECAUSE I already AM saved. There is a big difference. I am free, you are under bondage and believing that works save, contrary to what the bible says.
Catholics do not believe in works righteousness or that works in themselves, apart from Christ, “save.” But we believe that they do cooperate in our salvation. When Our Lord tells us that to “come after him” we must “take up our cross daily” we take him at his word. What we DO matters, not as the cause of our salvation but in cooperation with it.
The Faith in Christ for salvation saves, the good works follow because you will have a changed heart toward God, that is what being born again is. You will have a genuine desire to serve the Lord, not to be saved, but because you Love Him.
If you do a word-study of “faith” through the entire Bible, you will see that it largely means in keeping one’s word – doing what you say you will do. Mostly, it describes God as the one who is “faithful.” Faith is doing what you say you will do. Paul’s writings are the first from which people interpret “faith” as meaning psychological affirmation. Considering his background, I consider it unlikely that Paul considered “faith” to be nothing more than a feeling or a rational decision. His rants about “works” are, in context, all about “works of the law” – the ceremonial law.
 
Well, since Frodo is now saved with no possibility whatever of losing his salvation, he can now join the Catholic Church, and have the fruit of the fullness of the truth, without ever having to worry about losing his salvation.

It appears that joining a church–any church–will not affect his salvation one whit, so why not be Catholic?
LOL. Often I wonder this. If ALL we need to do is believe that Jesus died for our sins, then why do fundamentalists waste time on us Catholics? Everyone who has posted in this thread believes that Jesus died for our sins (my apologies if I happened to have missed a post by a non-Christian – it’s just hard to keep track in a 57-page thread). So what’s the big deal, Frodo? We’re all “saved” because we all believe Jesus is our Savior. Right? So why would we need further evangelization? Why can’t we keep believing exactly what we believe?

Funny, though — I still don’t see any Bible verse that uses the phrase “accept Jesus as Savior.” I think I’ll obey the stuff that’s actually in the Bible, just to be sure.
 
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