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Pixie_Dust
Guest
Now that’s funny.xfrodobagginsx:
[Next post …]
xfrodobagginsx:
Do you seriously not see the irony here?
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japhy
Guest
Why do Catholics believe obedience is necessary? Because Scripture tells us it is.
And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. (1 John 2:3-6)
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. (John 3:36)
[Jesus Christ our Lord,] through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations (Rom 1:5)
For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. (Rom 2:6-8)
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. (Rom 6:12)
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Rom 6:16)
For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has wrought through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed (Rom 15:18)
Under the test of this service, you will glorify God by your obedience in acknowledging the gospel of Christ, and by the generosity of your contribution for them and for all others (2 Cor 9:13)
We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle to the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete. (2 Cor 10:5-6)
You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? (Gal 5:7)
when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thess 1:7b-8)
If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not look on him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother. (2 Thess 3:14-15)
Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience. (Heb 4:11, cf. Heb 4:3-7)
Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him (Heb 5:8-9)
Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Heb 13:17)
[Peter,] chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. (1 Pet 1:2)
Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brethren, love one another earnestly from the heart. (1 Pet 1:22)
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? (1 Pet 4:17)
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. (1 John 5:2-3)
And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. (1 John 2:3-6)
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. (John 3:36)
[Jesus Christ our Lord,] through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations (Rom 1:5)
For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. (Rom 2:6-8)
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. (Rom 6:12)
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Rom 6:16)
For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has wrought through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed (Rom 15:18)
Under the test of this service, you will glorify God by your obedience in acknowledging the gospel of Christ, and by the generosity of your contribution for them and for all others (2 Cor 9:13)
We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle to the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete. (2 Cor 10:5-6)
You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? (Gal 5:7)
when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thess 1:7b-8)
If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not look on him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother. (2 Thess 3:14-15)
Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience. (Heb 4:11, cf. Heb 4:3-7)
Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him (Heb 5:8-9)
Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Heb 13:17)
[Peter,] chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. (1 Pet 1:2)
Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brethren, love one another earnestly from the heart. (1 Pet 1:22)
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? (1 Pet 4:17)
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. (1 John 5:2-3)
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Church_Militant
Guest
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Michael_Francis
Guest
Please be aware that this thread will reach the 1000 post limit and be closed very soon.
Thanks in advance to all who participated with patience and charity (on both sides).
MF
Thanks in advance to all who participated with patience and charity (on both sides).
MF
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JimG
Guest
I guess I didn’t make myself clear. You can’t escape works. Believing in Jesus is a work. Accepting Christ as your personal savior is a work. Repenting of your sinfulness is a work. It is something you either do or don’t do. From the very outset of your salvation, you either accept Christ or you reject him. That is something that you do or don’t do. It’s a work.
The offering of the gift requires acceptance of the gift. Acceptance is a work. Not everyone accepts. My point is, that there is always some human action that Christ asks of you: acceptance or rejection at the very least. It’s something He requires of you. Something you must do. It’s a work.
And finally, I can’t help but quote the words of St. Paul, who said this about his own works: “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church” (1 Col: 24)
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R2D2
Guest
How about:
ritual = wedding day
sacrament = all the days of marriage
ritual = confirmation day
sacrament = all the days defending the faith and church
ritual = ordination rite
sacrament = living chastity, obedience and poverty
ritual = baptisimal rite
sacrament = repentance & obedience to God’s commandments
etc., etc…
Did I get that correctly?
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R2D2
Guest
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
What’s sad is that you trust your church over God’s word, that’s whats sad.…both: funny and ironic…
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mercygate
Guest
And by that statement you bear false witness against the Church.What’s sad is that you trust your church over God’s word, that’s whats sad.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
No, it’s not the Church OVER the written Scriptures, and no Catholic has ever said that. We know from the Bible that the written Word isn’t all there is.What’s sad is that you trust your church over God’s word, that’s whats sad.
I Thessalonians 2:14 - Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
If the Church does not have authority, the the Bible doesn’t have authority. Without the testimony of the Church, we would not have the Bible, even if we had the Bible, we would have no way to know which books are inspired. Every Christian today who accepts the 27 books of the NT agrees w/Catholics regarding the authority of the Church to determine what writings, from the hundreds that were circulating during the first centuries of Christianity, belong in the Scriptures.
I Timothy 3:15 - But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
I hope you’re aware that you trust my Church’s judgment on what exactly IS God’s written Word - you do have 27 books in your New Testament, do you not?
I’m afraid, Mr Baggins, that it is you who hold teachings of your church above the Bible, since you’ve been asked several times in this thread to show us Scriptural evidence for:
- An age of accountability
- Baptism being something only believers do as an outward sign of an inward change
- Baptism not being necessary for salvation
- Asking Jesus to be your personal Lord and Saviour
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
Paul in Romans 8:23-25–We wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this we hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is not hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not have yet, then we wait for it patiently.
**He said that we have already recieved the Spirit of adoption
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption**, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
**We haven’t recieved the Spirit of bondage again to fear. If we could lose our salvation, we would have much to fear, but praise God for His finished work on the cross to pay for my sins.**
That is Paul; do you think you’re better than Paul then?
No, do you?
Jesus’ point here is that they will not be condemned if they are always with Him; that does not mean that one will eternally be saved if one professes Him and yet lives in sin.
Ahh, but to have to Holy Spirit is to always have the Holy Spirit. He seals us unto the day of redemption.**
This is a very poor defense on your part; you notice that before this verse, Paul admonishes his listeners not to sin against God (verses 25-29), and indeed says in verse 30 not to grieve the Holy Spirit. The implication of sinning against Christ is obvious, but chastisement won’t just be the result of it, but Judgment and casting out of His kingdom.
No one is saying to sin. It’s NOT a poor defense, you are not listening. I said that we don’t do good deeds to be saved, we do them, BECAUSE we already ARE saved…and yes chastizement does follow.**
**Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the hastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. **If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons./****B] Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Read again Paul’s point in Romans 8; that is never Paul’s thought.**
What?**
**To have the Spirit IS to walk in the Spirit. If you accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, you have the Holy Spirit and are saved, BEFORE baptism, good, works, ect.
Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus**, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
I have the Holy Spirit living in me. I know Him and He knows me. He has done miracles for me and my family. Jesus actually spoke to me face to face (though I didn’t see Him with fleshly eyes) and told me to go back to a church, which was baptist. Was He wrong?
All of Jesus’ point is that one must believe and abide in Him–obey Him–to be always with Him. It’s not merely knowing Him and having a personal relationship. One who hears Him but does not follow Him will not achieve salvation.
**To follow Him, you must first accept Him.B]
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, **This is the work of God, that ye believe ****on him whom he hath sent.
After we are saved, we have a natural desire to do His will. It is not so that we can be saved. It is BECAUSE we already ARE saved.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
If you are trying to work for your salvation, you will NEVER get it because you are already a sinner and guilty before God’s eyes. Suppose someone robs a bank and then lives the rest of his life as a good citizen, years later, when he is caught he will still go to jail right? That’s the way it is with salvation. We cannot live good enough lives to get to heaven because we are already sinners. Jesus had to come and live a perfect life and die in your place. All you have to do is accept His sacrifice for your sins.
Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
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Milliardo
Guest
Why, do you trust the Bible in of itself, or do you trust it because another person taught you so? So, if we are to take what you said seriously, you don’t trust what your pastor or anyone else who taught you about God’s Word. What do you trust then? The Bible? But the Bible doesn’t talk–it is men who talk about the Bible. It is men that God has entrusted to teach His Word. He didn’t say, “Let the Bible in itself teach you so.” He empowered men–His Apostles–to teach His Word.What’s sad is that you trust your church over God’s word, that’s whats sad.
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
What I am saying is that GOD’S word (the bible) trumps the churches word, traditions, even our own experience, it trumps a pastors or priests word if their words contradict the word.
Ro 3:4 God forbid: yea,** let God be true, but every man a liar**; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
(KJV)
You can CONSIDER believing it if it doesn’t contradict the word of God.
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guanophore
Guest
You are right to an extent, of course. You seem to fail to recognize, however that the Word of God is not a book, but a Person. And that Person has made known His Revelation by way of the Sacred Tradition equally as much as in the Sacred Writings. There is no separation between the Sacred Writings, Sacred Traditions from which they sprang. The Catholic Church wrote the NT, collected, preserved, and canonized it. That is why there is NO contradiction between the Teachings of the Church, and the writings in the book.
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
Again I will say:
You may observe traditions as long as they don’t contradict God’s word. The problem is that many catholic tradtions contradict the word of God.
Mt 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mr 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
I used to think so, too, but they really do not. Nothing in the Scriptures contradicts Catholic doctrine or Sacred Tradition. You can read my testimony here and here.
Sacred Tradition is not the tradition of men. As I demonstrated with my enumerated list above, it is you who reject the commandment of God that you may keep your traditions of “age of accountability,” “Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change and does nothing else,” and “Ask Jesus to be your personal Saviour.” None of these have any warrant in Scripture at all, or you would have long ago posted the Scriptural evidence of such beliefs.
Every time you have challenged a Catholic position on salvation in this thread, you have been shown several Scriptures that say exactly what the Church teaches, which you then ignore and go on to post other verses as if Scripture can contradict itself and your verses carry more weight than the ones that directly and incontrovertibly say that baptism saves, and washes away our sins, that we have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved if we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, with faithful hope in the promises of Christ.
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mercygate
Guest
No Catholic teaching or Tradition (I do not speak for the possibility of cultural folk-traditions practiced by individual Catholics - small t) contradicts the Word of God. Not one.
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
Here are some:
Baptizing babies, praying to the saints, believing in things not biblical such as purgatory, trusting in a man’s word (the pope or priest) over God’s word, forbidding your priests and nuns to marry (which causes many problems which I won’t get into, but you should know what I mean), believing that being good saves, baptism saves, trusting in anything other than Jesus Christ’s finished work for salvation, holy water (unbiblical), believing that communion saves (unbiblical).
Question, Do you believe that all catholics go to heaven?
Second, Since no one can perfectly obey the commandments of Jesus, do all catholics go to hell?
How do you know if you are going to heaven?
If you live a good Christian life all of you life and sin just before getting hit by a bus and dying, do you go to hell?
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