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R2D2
Guest
Easton’s Bible Dictionary is God’s word??What’s sad is that you trust your church over God’s word, that’s whats sad.
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Milliardo
Guest
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**We haven’t recieved the Spirit of bondage again to fear. If we could lose our salvation, we would have much to fear, but praise God for His finished work on the cross to pay for my sins.****So where did Paul say that you received the Spirit of adoption–then that’s it? No–he said you received it, yet we still have to wait for that hope. So, indeed, what do we hope for if that hope is already seen? It is not hope then, because no one hopes for what he already has. So, no go, frodo.
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, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
**We haven’t recieved the Spirit of bondage again to fear. If we could lose our salvation, we would have much to fear, but praise God for His finished work on the cross to pay for my sins.****So where did Paul say that you received the Spirit of adoption–then that’s it? No–he said you received it, yet we still have to wait for that hope. So, indeed, what do we hope for if that hope is already seen? It is not hope then, because no one hopes for what he already has. So, no go, frodo.
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**Ah, then if that is so, why do you write like you’re better? But we digress…
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**Ah, but then where do you see that you will not lose your salvation? Jesus never said that if you are with Him, and you sin, you will not lose it. Time and again, He will admonish to remain with Him. Why do you think He admonishes that if He doesn’t recognizes the fact that one can still lose his salvation in sin?
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**Have you read up to John 3:21 then? If you read that very well, it says the opposite–one does good to go to the light, not that one goes to the light in order to do good. To be clearer then, Jesus already illuminates those good deeds one does, even before one accepts Him. Conversely, those who do evil fear Him and do not go near Him, because His light will illuminate them and expose their evil works. So, one does not good only when one is saved. Before you were “saved”, did you do only evil? Of course not–you did good things, and you also sinned.
****Ah, now you show your lack of knowledge of early Christianity here. For early Christians, acceptance of Christ comes fully with baptism, not before baptism. They recognize they’re never Christians until they were baptized. Thus, for them, the full acceptance of Christ only comes in baptism. It’s a nice try, but it shows the lack of knowledge in early Christian history.
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Milliardo
Guest
****You’ll have to ask the 30,000+ Protestant denominations for that one.
To follow Him, you must first accept Him
Ah, but we don’t merely stop at merely accepting Him then, do we? So, you do admit that we have to do something other than merely accepting Him then?
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**Natural desire? My “born again” neighbour had this natural desire to cheat on his wife, not just once, but three times, and simultaneously even. Yet each day he proudly says he proclaims Christ. He is an elder in their “born again” church, yet he shamelessly continues his ways. Natural desire? Another good “born again” friend of mine is a perennial gossiper, and will have something negative to say about someone. Natural desire then? Or is that desire formed, gradually, as we slowly take out our sinful ways and take on the ways of the Lord?
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**Did you notice something with your example? You just refuted OSAS.
With OSAS, once you sin, and live the rest of your life as if good, then you will still go to heaven. But OSAS doesn’t work out with your example, because now you say that one still has to somehow still pay for his sins even if he had been good. OSAS doesn’t make much sense now, does it? A better way then would be someone who robs a bank, repents, then lives the rest of his life good. Will he then go to jail? What do you think?**
**Then we must say Jesus is a liar, because He said that one must be perfect as His Father is perfect. By your notion, you cannot become perfect, yet Jesus did seem to certainly believe that man can do it, or else He will not make a command that is impossible to obey.
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**All one has to do is accept Him? So, if I am a sinner, and I accept Him, and then sin again, will I still be saved? Am I saved if I confess Him and sin again?
Read carefully: Paul is contrasting against the Law here, not against good works. Paul would not contradict himself between Romans 2:5-8 and then later one change his mind, would he now?
Now this is an even weaker defense, since we see clearly here Paul’s admonishment: walk in love; why walk in love, if faith is all that we need? Why do something at all, if faith is the only thing? To walk in love means to do something–love your neighbours. “The greatest among these is love”, Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13. Is faith the greatest? No–“If I have faith as to move mountains, but has not love, then I am nothing”, he wrote in there. It is faith working in love. Love is the fulfillment of the Law.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
I’ll be happy to show you (in another thread) how most of these things are Biblical and the ones that aren’t are also misconceptions you have.
Nope!
Nope!
God knows who belongs to Him. He’s the One Who decides. Let Him do His job.
Purgatory is more likely. Then Heaven.
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Gamera
Guest
When you’ve personally read the WHOLE Bible, and the WHOLE Catechism of the Catholic Church, you’ll have a basis to form an opinion. Have you? If you personally haven’t read both, how can you make this claim — are you basing it on what someone else told you the Bible teaches, and what someone else told you Catholics believe? That’s no different from practicing the “man-made traditions” of which you accuse us.What’s sad is that you trust your church over God’s word, that’s whats sad.
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Milliardo
Guest
Ah, but who interprets the Bible? Does it interprets itself? So, if the Bible trumps man, then who read the Bible to you? Or are you saying now that you somehow have this mystical understanding that no one else had, and that you had it by your own self? Yet if you say that, then what Christian precept do you point to then, since any Christian notion, whether Catholic or Protestant, came from those before them? So, did you discover the Bible by your own chance, or has someone taught you how to interpret it?
We go back to that point again–how do you know it contradicts the Bible? The Bible itself said so, or someone interpreted (taught) it that way to you, and you follow that notion which has been taught to you?
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Gamera
Guest
Holy Water is Biblical. “and the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel …,” Numbers 5:17. Now you’ve proven that you’ve never even finished reading the Bible, so how can you tell us what is “unBiblical?”
Everything you list has a Biblical basis, but each merits its own thread. I pick your “holy water” example because it’s the easiest — since “holy water” is mentioned by those exact words in Numbers 5:17, you can’t possibly maintain that it is “unBiblical.” By showing us that you didn’t even know holy water is found in the Bible, you’ve shown that you aren’t an accurate source of Scriptural knowledge.
No.
No. That’s why we have confession.
We trust God to keep His promises. It is our responsibility to remain free of mortal sin, or to seek forgiveness when we commit a mortal sin.
Depends. If the sin is a venial sin, no. If the sin is a mortal sin, yes. “All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal,” 1 John 5:17.
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Linkowski
Guest
Obedience is not only necessary (yet a gift from God) but is EVIDENCE that one has been born again. Many other things are EVDIENCE as well…
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
The one question that I have always had…and this really stumps me. If all Catholics are born again/of God because they were baptized (as infants/adults), why do we see them PRACTICING sin? It says in scripture that those who are truly born of God DO certain things (and do not do other things). “Born of God” is a past event. Those who have become partakers with Christ will remain and will not fall away/into sin.
Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Those who fall into premeditated, abominable sin (unbelief never were…
1Jo 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
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unacanta
Guest
You of course seem to catagorize “them” and “us”. The them of course being the non-believer and the “us” those whom do believe.
However that is not what sripture teaches. The Gospel is for everyone not just believers.
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1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world**.
1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our (the believer) sins, and not for ours (the believer) only but also for the whole world. (Non-believers in the world)
No one is bound for hell because of various sins in which we participate but rather than our refusal to believe in Christ.
Agreed. If one believes in Jesus then his life will reflect the belief. This does not mean that the reflection of Christ in us the hope of glory is what our salvation is based on. The reflection only gives evidence that He is really there
This is of course the heart of the controversy. Catholics believe there must be something else besides just “belief”, they must add something else to the pot of salvation. Protestants stand on the “belief” recognizing that good deeds though part of a born again believers life do not add to the salvation question
Satan and demons do know who Christ is, they do not acknowledge Him as Lord
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
That is why I have said that sin is not the issue but rather the belief in Jesus is the question in hand. Of course belief being in trusting Him and His finished works upon the cross.
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japhy
Guest
Really? That’s not what Scripture says. Read 1 Cor 6:8-10 and Gal 5:19-21. Paul is very clear: Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
You’ve been deceived.
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japhy
Guest
Our “birth” unto God is a birth of adoption, which makes it (sadly) possible for us to deny our adoption and to return to the prince of this world, Satan. As Paul wrote:
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (Rom 8:15)
We ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Rom 8:23)
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises. (Rom 9:4 [KJV])
But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. (Gal 4:4-5)
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will (Eph 1:5 [KJV])
Our sonship is an adoptive one. Our birth is not a physical one, but a spiritual one. The prodigal son did not need to be re-born when he removed himself from his father’s house, he just needed to be forgiven and taken back in. Thus, when we, re-born and adopted though we are, separate ourselves again from God with sin, we need not be re-re-born or re-adopted, we just need to be forgiven again.
Wait, who do you know that is without sin? Or is it that you know people without premeditated, abominable sin? I know them too. Perhaps there are different degrees of sin?
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Catherine_S
Guest
Catholic Confession of FaithWhat’s sad is that you trust your church over God’s word, that’s whats sad.
.Nicene
Creed310 AD
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father.
Through Him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
He came down from heaven.
By the power of the Holy Spirit
He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day He rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
He ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen
:knight2:
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Mannyfit75
Guest
If any Christians claims has no sin, he has deceived himself. John made this very clearly.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 1 John Chapter 1 verse 8-9.
The claim that Protestants that "Why do Catholic sin, if they are born again? When you can born again you cannot sin.
Wrong. You can sin. You still have free will to choose right or wrong. You think because you are born again, your free will has be pre-program not to sin?
I think not. Free will is a gift. If you claim you have no sin since you been "Born Again, you have deceived yourself just as St. John said.
That is why we confess our sins, he is faithful, and just, to forgive us our sins, and he will cleanse us from all iniquity.
In the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church, we have the means to re-establish our relationship to God by going to confession after we commit a sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 1 John Chapter 1 verse 8-9.
The claim that Protestants that "Why do Catholic sin, if they are born again? When you can born again you cannot sin.
Wrong. You can sin. You still have free will to choose right or wrong. You think because you are born again, your free will has be pre-program not to sin?
I think not. Free will is a gift. If you claim you have no sin since you been "Born Again, you have deceived yourself just as St. John said.
That is why we confess our sins, he is faithful, and just, to forgive us our sins, and he will cleanse us from all iniquity.
In the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church, we have the means to re-establish our relationship to God by going to confession after we commit a sin.
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R2D2
Guest
Division and denominationalism is unbiblical:
Yeah sure, multiplication by division…:banghead:
You’re in the wrong church xfrodobagginsx.
Can you not see the strong biblical and Pauline emphasis on Christian doctrinal unity? Yet the CC is always criticized for teaching the same thing.
Yeah sure, multiplication by division…:banghead:
You’re in the wrong church xfrodobagginsx.
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Linkowski
Guest
It is speaking of practicing sin - enjoying sin - WITHOUT consequences/chastisement. We are not speaking of one-time events when we are talking about scriptures such as these…
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin (PRACTICE SIN); for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
For those of us in Christ…
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
It is one thing to be under sin’s dominion - it is another thing to fall here and there (as Paul so speaks in Romans 7).
As I said - no one born of God PRACTICES sin. Why do we see Catholic folk who practice and enjoy sin when they are supposed to be “born of God” at baptism? That was my point in my last post. Whenever I bring this up, people always make the assumption that I am speaking of people that never sin. You lose credibility when you you assume that of my words.
God said it…not me.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Paul made it clear that unrepentent sinners cannot gain into heaven. Which Catholic folk? I know a Baptist who claim to be born again, living in sin by looking at Porn. He is living in sin. How about a Protestant minister, who commits adultery?
So you claim from your heart you never sinned since you became born again?
17 Galatians 5 Found 5
It is impossible for someone to claim he has no sin in him since his conversion; unless by the grace of God. I myself, being a Catholic do not enjoy sin. Those who live in the life of hypocrisy, will be will judge accordingly. We can only hope that they will repent.
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mikeledes
Guest
Was King David born of God? Did he enjoy the sin he committed with Bathsheba? He certainly wasn’t repenting after he committed it. In fact, he lied and committed murder in order to cover his sin, hence committing more sins. Or how about King Solomon and his marriage to foreign women and his idolatry? There is no expression of remorse there either.
Or how about Ezekiel 18:24
**24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. **
In God’s sight you are either righteous or you are not righteous. If He describes you as righteous - without any qualifiers like “outwardly” or “in their own estimation”, than you are righteous. And yet he talks about a righteous man turning away from his righteousness and doing all of the detestable things a wicked man does. If that person was never righteous to begin with, than this passage would absolutely make no sense. Wouldn’t that person fall under the “wicked” category?
God bless,
Michael
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unacanta
Guest
Here is the whole scripture:
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
See, the scripture teaches that those who are justified in faith by Christ will inherit the kingdom of God, though they be participants of all of those sins. It is not the sin but again faith in the Lord Jesus.
I would charge this, there is not a person reading this response that has not been by deed or thought in any one of the mentioned catagories. Yet, we find justification by God through Christ. It stands to reason then that the sin in not what God sees but rather Christ’s righteousness which was imputed to us.
That is why I say, the sin is forgiven the question is who is Christ and have you placed your salvation upon His finished works on the the cross
Gal 5:19-21 is similar in the sence our lives bear fruit. Be it fruit of the Spirit or Flesh. The fruit we bear though has nothing to do with our salvation. It is an outward appearence of an inward work.
Blessings and may the Lord be honored in all things,
Len
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jmcrae
Guest
Key word is “were.” Past tense. They have repented of their sins and been baptized. They no longer commit these sins. If they do commit them again, then they have to go to Confession, and start again.
Christ’s righteousness is not “imputed” to us; rather, we acquire it through the forgiveness of our sins in Baptism and (subsequently) in the sacrament of reconciliation, together with the imitation of Christ’s virtues - we replace our sinful habits with habits of virtue.
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Milliardo
Guest
Interesting when you were the one who made the category in the first place.
As you stated yourself: “We can say the atheists as well as anti-theists and devil worshipers all have their sins forgiven.”And now it even becomes funnier when you show here that the Bible itself makes that distinction.
The point of the passage there is that Christ is for all; however, it does not mean that there won’t be any distinction. Indeed, as even frodo admits, there are believers and unbelievers. So this categorization is nothing new, and helps us to know who is who.You fail to realize that sin is the refusal to believe in Christ; when you sin, you then say with your actions that you do not follow Christ, and that you would rather do your own way than obey Him. That is sin.
You stop short–it is not the only basis by which we shall be judged on, but we see that God will use our deeds as a basis for His Judgment.
If it does not add, then why would God use it as His basis for Judgment? Remember that the ultimate of salvation is Final Judgment; this is where after all it shall be determined where we shall spend our eternity. Why would God use as His basis our deeds, or works, as His basis for Judgment when you say that it does not add to our salvation?
They recognize Him as Lord; we see this when Satan tried to tempt Jesus. He knows He is Lord. Where they fail is to obey Him–they want Him to obey them, not them obey Him. Again, we see this when Satan tried to seduce Jesus to do his bidding.
Again, belief does not mean mere acknowledgment of Him as Lord. We see that Satan and his demons also know Him to be Lord, yet they are not saved because they refuse to follow Him. If one believes, then one must also go through that belief by being ready to obey Him. Why would you say you believe if you refuse to follow? That is not belief then. You only want to say you believe, but you do not act that belief out. Then you do not believe, but you only pretend to believe. You do not want to carry your cross; you only want to stay merrily along, doing nothing. You become lukewarm–neither hot nor cold, and being lukewarm He will spit you out. To believe is to act–carry your cross and come follow Me. The following entails doing His will: follow Me in everything I tell you. You do something. You are not a mere bystander. He is the King–do you refuse to follow His commands then?
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