How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[xfrodobagginsx]

When you’ve personally read the WHOLE Bible, and the WHOLE Catechism of the Catholic Church, you’ll have a basis to form an opinion. Have you? If you personally haven’t read both, how can you make this claim — are you basing it on what someone else told you the Bible teaches, and what someone else told you Catholics believe? That’s no different from practicing the “man-made traditions” of which you accuse us.

Bible Yes, catechism…I don’t need it. It is worthless to me. I have God’s word. I don’t need the words of a church to tell me what is right, when I have God’s very word. Man made traditions? Catechism is a man made tradition. You don’t find it in the word of God, like many catholic teachings.

Pr 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

 

[Saul.Tentmaker]

I said “other”.

Believing on Christ alone is the same as believing on the Church alone, for Christ is head of the Church, and the Church is Christ’s mystical body. You can’t have one without the other.

But this isn’t enough.

Salvation isn’t a poll. It’s not either/or. It’s both/and.

Both faith in the Church, and meritorious works in the name of the Church, which is Christ.

 

[Zooey]

I like an old song called “Farther Along”. One of the lines in it says “Farther along we’ll know all about it. Farther along we’ll understand why.”

Una

Now, that makes me mad. For your information, that is a beautiful old Gospel song that was one of my Daddy’s favorites. It is about how, in Heaven, folks will be able to understand all the trials & pain & suffering that is in this world. We don’t understand it here.
It is not some kind of promise that, you can go out & murder & rape & torture, & then get to Heaven, in some unknown way.

Shame on you for distorting the message of the song.:tsktsk:
Double shame on you for trying to say, that the words of a song, any song, are the same as the Bible.:tsktsk:

What’s sad is that you trust your church over God’s word, that’s whats sad.

Easton’s Bible Dictionary is God’s word??

Yeah…I wanna see one of them there Bibles what has got the “Gospel According to Easton’s Bible Dictionary” in it.

Bible Yes, catechism…I don’t need it. It is worthless to me. I have God’s word. I don’t need the words of a church to tell me what is right, when I have God’s very word. Man made traditions? Catechism is a man made tradition. You don’t find it in the word of God, like many catholic teachings.

Pr 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

You don’t find Easton’s Bible Dictionary in the Bible either…( except maybe one that was printed up in your basement last Wednesday).

 

[Milliardo]

Bible Yes, catechism…I don’t need it. It is worthless to me.

Yet another evidence of how little you grasp early Christianity. Those who wish to enter the Church were first catechised; hence they being catechumens. Your trivializing it shows how little you know of early Christianity, of which you profess to follow.

Catechism is a man made tradition. You don’t find it in the word of God, like many catholic teachings.

Now you go to something that is silly; do you believe in the Trinity? It is not in the Bible; it must be a man-made invention then.

 

[Gamera]

Bible Yes…

Okay, good. That’s excellent. Now, you recently called holy water “unBiblical” even though Numbers 5:17 specifically describes “holy water.” Therefore, you must agree that you’ve read things in the Bible that didn’t catch your attention — which is normal, because it’s a large and intricate book, and you’d need a photographic memory to internalize every single word. But do you concede that the Bible may, in fact, contain things you didn’t know were in there even though you’ve read it – things like holy water?

And if “holy water” in Numbers 5:17 escaped your attention, perhaps other things also appear in the Bible which escaped your attention? Again, that’s fine – it would take multiple lifetimes to learn everything that Scripture says, which is one of the many reasons we need the Church.

 

[Saul.Tentmaker]

Bible Yes, catechism…I don’t need it. It is worthless to me.

But the Lutherans and the Calvinists and the Anglicans and the Methodists all have catechisms.

Most good presbyterian schools still drill their students in the statements from the catechism.

Even if Scripture were easy to understand, and interpreted itself, most people wouldn’t believe that Scripture were easy, or self-interpreting. They would have to be taught, and this by a Catechism.

 

[deanarrca]

But the Lutherans and the Calvinists and the Anglicans and the Methodists all have catechisms.

Most good presbyterian schools still drill their students in the statements from the catechism.

Even if Scripture were easy to understand, and interpreted itself, most people wouldn’t believe that Scripture were easy, or self-interpreting. They would have to be taught, and this by a Catechism.

Also The Baptists, Fundamentalist etc have there own so called catechism. (or works of biblical interpretation) they just don’t call it a catechism. They are the writings and teachings of Scoffield and DL Moody.

cat·e·chism (kt-kzm)
n.

1. A book giving a brief summary of the basic principles of Christianity in question-and-answer form.
2. A manual giving basic instruction in a subject, usually by rote or repetition.
3. A body of fundamental principles or beliefs, especially when accepted uncritically: “the core of the catechism of the antinuclear left, the notion that the threat to peace is technological, not political” George F. Will.

 

[mozart-250]

Hmm. In reading the last few pages on this thread, it predictably has devolved into an argument on OSAS. Just a couple of comment here:

(1) You do know that when you deconstruct the various arguments, it reduces to a question about the status of those who come to a profession of faith and then walk away. Everything else is noise and nuance.

While this may be interesting to argue about (it is probably in the top 3 issues that evangelicals argue about over the internet) it is only tangentially related to the original question.

(2) This issue is hardly worthy of the bandwidth it receives (IMHO). While I have my own reasons for not believing in eternal security, I will defend my Calvinist brothers and sisters in Christ against charges of being great heretics unless they propose
(1) that everyone who says “Sinner’s Prayer” will be in eternity with Christ (which is rare).
(2) everybody that disagrees with them is a great heretic (which is fairly common).

Otherwise this issue pretty much puts me to :yawn: :yawn:

But this statement humoured me for some reason

Bible Yes, catechism…I don’t need it. It is worthless to me. I have God’s word.

…and Easton’s Bible dictionnary is what again?

Anyway…carry on about arguing OSAS:shrug:

 

[mercygate]

Hmm. In reading the last few pages on this thread, it predictably has devolved into an argument on OSAS. Just a couple of comment here:

(1) You do know that when you deconstruct the various arguments, it reduces to a question about the status of those who come to a profession of faith and then walk away. Everything else is noise and nuance.

While this may be interesting to argue about (it is probably in the top 3 issues that evangelicals argue about over the internet) it is only tangentially related to the original question.

(2) This issue is hardly worthy of the bandwidth it receives (IMHO). While I have my own reasons for not believing in eternal security, I will defend my Calvinist brothers and sisters in Christ against charges of being great heretics unless they propose
(1) that everyone who says “Sinner’s Prayer” will be in eternity with Christ (which is rare).
(2) everybody that disagrees with them is a great heretic (which is fairly common).

Otherwise this issue pretty much puts me to :yawn: :yawn:

But this statement humoured me for some reason

…and Easton’s Bible dictionnary is what again?

Anyway…carry on about arguing OSAS:shrug:

What is it with you Wesleyan types? Grace Seeker, Zooey, you: reason, grace, mutual respect. You surer y’all aren’t closet Catholics?

 

[agangbern]

I wish to say, “by trusting Jesus Christ alone”. But that clause seems deeply misunderstood by many. Others understand it as, “away with the Church”, “away with the saints”, etc. The fact is, trusting in Christ includes accepting all that he teaches. It includes trusting in the Church that he built and which is guiided by the Holy Spirit. It includes belief in the fact that He is the resurrection and the life. It includes belief in the fact that Christians could pray for one another.

 

[mozart-250]

What is it with you Wesleyan types? Grace Seeker, Zooey, you: reason, grace, mutual respect. You surer y’all aren’t closet Catholics?

Add Edwin to the list. He is an honorary Wesleyan type (and his wife is).

Believe it or not, although I was raised a Methodist, I now go to an Assembly of God church (long story why). Although some might think of AG as an anti-Catholic church, I in large part credit my church in moving me from a much harder anti-Catholic which is where I was 15 years ago. I label myself Wesleyan here becase:

• If you do your history, the Pentecostal churches flow from the Wesleyan tradition
• I question some parts of Pentecostalism

My wife and I have talked about moving down south to the Bible belt some time. If we were to do so, I would lean in favour of coming home to Methodism (my parents report that Methodist churches in the south are less liberal than in the land of the liberals).

Anyway this is a good question. I guess if you do they history it goes back to John Wesley (google and read his “Letter to a Roman Catholic”).

Anyway, hard core Anti-Catholicism is quite foreign to our tradition. Sheesh…why shouldn’t we treat anybody of any orthodox denomination who professes faith in Christ and exhibits the fruit of the Spirit as our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Anyway, maybe I am Biblically illiterate, but I have yet to find the verses in the Bible that say the pope is the Antichrist or that the Catholic church is the whore of Babylon (sorry the seven hills doesn’t quite do it…plenty of Vermont towns have seven hills…although most have more I suppose ). So until I either find those verses in the Bible or hear an intelligent, reasoned case base on what Catholics actually believe I will continue where I am.

Anyway I guess the answer to your question is “because we have not been indoctrinated into it” .

 

[mercygate]

Add Edwin to the list. He is an honorary Wesleyan type (and his wife is).

Believe it or not, although I was raised a Methodist, I now go to an Assembly of God church (long story why). Although some might think of AG as an anti-Catholic church, I in large part credit my church in moving me from a much harder anti-Catholic which is where I was 15 years ago. I label myself Wesleyan here becase:

• If you do your history, the Pentecostal churches flow from the Wesleyan tradition
• I question some parts of Pentecostalism

My wife and I have talked about moving down south to the Bible belt some time. If we were to do so, I would lean in favour of coming home to Methodism (my parents report that Methodist churches in the south are less liberal than in the land of the liberals).

Anyway this is a good question. I guess if you do they history it goes back to John Wesley (google and read his “Letter to a Roman Catholic”).

Anyway, hard core Anti-Catholicism is quite foreign to our tradition. Sheesh…why shouldn’t we treat anybody of any orthodox denomination who professes faith in Christ and exhibits the fruit of the Spirit as our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Anyway, maybe I am Biblically illiterate, but I have yet to find the verses in the Bible that say the pope is the Antichrist or that the Catholic church is the whore of Babylon (sorry the seven hills doesn’t quite do it…plenty of Vermont towns have seven hills…although most have more I suppose ). So until I either find those verses in the Bible or hear an intelligent, reasoned case base on what Catholics actually believe I will continue where I am.

Anyway I guess the answer to your question is “because we have not been indoctrinated into it” .

To demonstrate the extravagant munificence of my sense of Christian fellowship with you, I will ignore the fact thay you are a Red Sox fan. Note my location to grasp the magnitude of such a posture. :angel1:

 

[Dranu]

I’m sorry if someone else has mentioned this, and deviating from the flow, but I cannot resist.

I just find it ironic that xfrodobagginsx name whose character was created by a Catholic, in a book that he called a “fundamentally religious and Catholic work”, so I’ve heard.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

I’m sorry if someone else has mentioned this, and deviating from the flow, but I cannot resist.

I just find it ironic that xfrodobagginsx name whose character was created by a Catholic, in a book that he called a “fundamentally religious and Catholic work”, so I’ve heard.

Ya, so…that doesn’t make you right. I like frodo, but I am not a catholic. It’s Ironic that the catholic church thinks they are the true church, yet teaches so many heresies. That’s what ironic.

 

[Harpazo]

Ya, so…that doesn’t make you right. I like frodo, but I am not a catholic. It’s Ironic that the catholic church thinks they are the true church, yet teaches so many heresies. That’s what ironic.

Have you answered my claim yet on the Catholic Church being mentioned by NAME in Acts in the original Greek? No of course not. You jump from misconception to misconception and have been less than charitable since your arrival. I have not seen you answer a single question without changing subject because you cannot answer it. Why is that?

Why have you been so incredibly hateful and rude? If you wanted us to abandon Catholicism, and become “one of you” why wouldn’t you lead by your example of charity? Oh, you haven’t shown that. St. Francis has taught us as Catholics to “preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary use words.” You “private interpretation” doctrine has only brought division. Never has it brought unity. Why?

I’ll pray for you in my rosary.

In Pax Christi
Andrew

 

[Gamera]

It’s Ironic that the catholic church thinks they are the true church, yet teaches so many heresies. That’s what ironic.

If all we needed to do was “trust Jesus as our Savior,” then what difference would it make if we believed heresies? According to your view, we’d go to heaven, right?

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

If all we needed to do was “trust Jesus as our Savior,” then what difference would it make if we believed heresies? According to your view, we’d go to heaven, right?

If you are truly saved you go to heaven, yes, but you lose/gain rewards due to the things we do and say and teach.

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

There are people who will be saved, yet receive no rewards in heaven:

1Co 3:13-15 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. {it shall be: Gr. it is}

If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[jabelltulsa]

Ya, so…that doesn’t make you right. I like frodo, but I am not a catholic. It’s Ironic that the catholic church thinks they are the true church, yet teaches so many heresies. That’s what ironic.

Careful, there, buddy. By whose authority do you say that the Catholic Church teaches heresy? Your own interpretation? Tell me, who are you to claim that the Church teaches heresy?

 

[Zooey]

Anyway, maybe I am Biblically illiterate, but I have yet to find the verses in the Bible that say the pope is the Antichrist or that the Catholic church is the whore of Babylon (sorry the seven hills doesn’t quite do it…plenty of Vermont towns have seven hills…although most have more I suppose ). So until I either find those verses in the Bible or hear an intelligent, reasoned case base on what Catholics actually believe I will continue where I am.
.

You know what’s wrong, don’t you?? Us “Wesleyan Types” don’t have:wink: Easton’s Bible Dictionary in our Bibles.

(And a good thing, too!)

 

[Milliardo]

If you are truly saved you go to heaven, yes, but you lose/gain rewards due to the things we do and say and teach.

So, if you say you’re saved, and sin, you still go to heaven? How do you define sin then?