How we can find peace without any meaning?

[Bahman]

God in his Mercy created us. That gives meaning.

So what is the meaning in your opinion?

We reject him, he takes the blame and dies for us, so that we may be with him forever. That gives meaning.

How being with God could grant meaning to us?

What do you define “meaning”, as, anyway?

Meaning is underneath of knowledge and the source of all motion.

“He who has God lacks nothing. God alone suffices”, as St Teresa of Avila said.
**We have full happiness, peace, love, joy, fruits of the Holy Spirit, ect., in God. **

All you mentioned does not give you meaning (bold part) since they are all outcome of meaning.

 

[Bahman]

Perhaps the equation makes more sense if I write it in reverse?

Meaning = God

Simply and completely, that is it.

That doesn’t change anything.

 

[Bahman]

Yes, because until we rest in God, our hearts are restless

So you are in state motion meaning that you don’t know meaning. Moreover you can be in state of rest with God but the state of rest doesn’t grant you meaning.

 

[LethalMouse]

That doesn’t change anything.

Neither does rejecting it

 

[MT1926]

No. That has nothing to do with my religion. As I mentioned I am currently contemplating on subject matter so my definition can slightly change based on my understanding.

I think this is where you are confused. Just because a definition can slightly change for you, it doesn’t automatically change for the rest of us. Your understanding of something might change over time but the definition of a term does not change, except for cases that the meaning of some words change with society, like the word “gay”.

I can define meaning as the source of all motions. That is true because meaning is underneath of the knowledge and laws of nature is a part of knowledge.

Ok, but where is your proof that the rest of society defines the word meaning the same way?

I have a thread on this topic. The idea however is simple. God is in state of eternal now. So he can only perform one act since performing the second act requires temporarily and this is against the fact that God is in state of timeless. So God can only perform one eternal act which is creation. The eternal act however does not allow any dynamic to universe so we need temporal act which this is impossible to be performed by God as it was discussed.

Not sure if you are aware of this or not, but using your opinion to back up another one of your opinions does not turn either opinion into a fact. Not to mention why would anyone here believe your opinions without undeniable evidence. If anyone here for a second where to believe that God can only reside in an eternal state is to deny that Jesus, who existed temporally, is God.

I already defined meaning as the main source of all motion.

Yes you did, and everyone here says that the main source of all motion is God. If not God than what is the main source of all motion. And don’t say meaning. :banghead:

 

[HelenRose]

We are given lives, we grow, we enjoy and sometimes suffer and we eventually die. It is promised that we are given new lives again, after resurrection, and we go either to Hell or Heaven. But how all these could give any meaning to our lives? How we could find peace if our lives is meaningless?

Do you believe that your life is meaningless?

 

[LethalMouse]

Bahman, I would like to ask you a questions.

If 2+2 =4 is 100% true and always true and I refuse to accept that does it become untrue? Or does 2 items put with another 2 always still equal 4 no matter what I say?

Now let’s assume hypothetically that God = meaning, peace, truth, or whatever other word you search for.

Now, does someone refusing to acknowlwdge it make it untrue? Or does God still equal these things regardless of what the denier claims?

Morever might I point out YOU HAVE NO ANSWER.

If I believe whoke heartedly that 2+2=5 and I argue to desth that it does NOT = 4 I may be wrong, but at least I am logical.

If I ask “what does 2+2=?” And I tell the people who say “4” that they are wrong and I offer no alternative, how logical do I look?

This is not to say one can not check and evaluate, as I am not saying to just accept that someone said “4” and blindly follow it as truth, but I would use 4 as a working theory… you seek God but you have no working theory. You literally only set out to disprove things with your own ideas without even having the slightest replacement. So you have a search with no answer, no alternatives, and no chance because you will not even entertain the idea that the answer given you may hold some weight…

Furthermore you have stated strange facts. As you have spoken to satan who has confirmed the existence of God…

Idk how you randomly question God’s existence… but when you are accepting His existence you refuse to seek Him for what He is. You deny that He is Love, you deny that He can be anything that He is. You simply say He exists as a friend of Satan and has no properties of God.

I ask you to go ahead and spend some time with God being God as a working theory. Accept, temporarily that God is God and explore Him on that basis for idk… 6 months. Pray to Him to show you peace, to free you of Satan’s influence, to lead you to Him that you might find the love that He is.

If after 6 months you have found that this working theory is 100% false, then you can move on.

But remember that tbh IF it is purely proven false then you will not get much in the way of alterbative answers on a catholic forum. Idk where you should search because 2+2=4 here and I do not know how to “prove” that it equals 5…

You have met Satan and demons per your testimony who also admit the existence of God.

I have met an Angel and seen an image of God.

I came away with the fact that God is Love and that He is the meaning of things. And that He wields ultinate power to dispell demons.

You came away with the idea that satan can master you and control you and that God exists in a pointless and meaningless state that is useless to a human.

I would say these two outlooks match perfectly with everyone’s theory of how those meetings would go.

Moreso you admit that Satan is not a nice guy and that he has done evil to you.

So might it be God who speaks more truthfully to us and might it be that you are rejecting logic by not rejecting your self admitted evil inducing Satan and Not embracing God?

 

[SilverShadow22]

I must be a glutton for punishment. But anyhow, here goes.

If we agree that meaning is not the same purpose, then maybe we can call it the force which drives us onward. We seek this meaning.

Wolves must hunt. Cheetahs must run. Birds must fly. If they are kept from doing what they MUST do, they are miserable. Why? Because they have a PURPOSE that gives them MEANING.

When we have pets, depriving them of the needs of their nature is cruel. Cats must play, dogs must be given attention, because they require certain things according to their nature. The more they are allowed to express their nature, the more ‘themselves’ they are.

A chained hunting dog, a caged running dog, a guard dog with nothing to guard, a herding dog with nothing to herd – these are all sad and sorry creatures that will misbehave out of frustration and misery.

Everything has a purpose. Fulfilling that purpose makes it what it is. Being what it is supposed to be puts meaning in it.

A guard dog that guards nothing takes the meaning out of ‘guard’. A hunting dog that does not hunt takes the meaning out of ‘hunt’. A racing dog that does not race takes the meaning out of ‘race’.

If a thing is not what it is supposed to be, it loses meaning.

Now, people are more important and complicated than pets.

But we were still created for something. There is a purpose for each of us. This purpose is what we were MEANT to do – this is meaning. And the meaning comes from the one who MEANT us to do it. We can’t ask for a meaning, without asking the one who meant it.

God is the one who MEANT our meaning. Only He can answer the question. And until you find (and accept) your particular sub-category of the meaning of life, which is “to know, love, and serve God, and be with Him forever in paradise”… You’re never going to have an answer to your question.

 

[Bahman]

I think this is where you are confused. Just because a definition can slightly change for you, it doesn’t automatically change for the rest of us. Your understanding of something might change over time but the definition of a term does not change, except for cases that the meaning of some words change with society, like the word “gay”.

I think that I clearly defined “Meaning”.

Ok, but where is your proof that the rest of society defines the word meaning the same way?

There is no need for proof at the first stage. I first need to define things and then argue.

Not sure if you are aware of this or not, but using your opinion to back up another one of your opinions does not turn either opinion into a fact. Not to mention why would anyone here believe your opinions without undeniable evidence. If anyone here for a second where to believe that God can only reside in an eternal state is to deny that Jesus, who existed temporally, is God.

The problem of Jesus requires another discussion. We are talking about God who is in eternal now. Such a God can only perform one eternal act and cannot perform temporal acts.

Yes you did, and everyone here says that the main source of all motion is God. If not God than what is the main source of all motion. And don’t say meaning. :banghead:

I think that creation move on its own based on laws of nature. This is a fact since the basic structure of creation, elementary particles, has some attributes and their movement is based on laws of nature and their attributes. There was no need for all the complexity that we observe in nature if God is the mover.

As it was discussed laws of nature is a part of knowledge and Meaning is underneath of knowledge because we understand any small part of knowledge through its meaning. Meaning gives us, intellectual beings, satisfaction and peace after we understand something. There could be a deeper reason for why Meaning is underneath of knowledge but I am thinking about it right now.

 

[Bahman]

Do you believe that your life is meaningless?

Yes. We are just very busy with our emotions. You can understand that life is meaningless if you think throughly.

 

[Bahman]

Bahman, I would like to ask you a questions.

If 2+2 =4 is 100% true and always true and I refuse to accept that does it become untrue? Or does 2 items put with another 2 always still equal 4 no matter what I say?

Now let’s assume hypothetically that God = meaning, peace, truth, or whatever other word you search for.

Now, does someone refusing to acknowlwdge it make it untrue? Or does God still equal these things regardless of what the denier claims?

If God is meaning, peace and truth why He didn’t give us these at the first place. Why should our lives be meaningless? Why should our lives be restless because of following our emotions? Why should we search for truth constantly?

Morever might I point out YOU HAVE NO ANSWER.

If I believe whoke heartedly that 2+2=5 and I argue to desth that it does NOT = 4 I may be wrong, but at least I am logical.

If I ask “what does 2+2=?” And I tell the people who say “4” that they are wrong and I offer no alternative, how logical do I look?

This is not to say one can not check and evaluate, as I am not saying to just accept that someone said “4” and blindly follow it as truth, but I would use 4 as a working theory… you seek God but you have no working theory. You literally only set out to disprove things with your own ideas without even having the slightest replacement. So you have a search with no answer, no alternatives, and no chance because you will not even entertain the idea that the answer given you may hold some weight…

I have my working theory: Think then Find and finally Judge. That is the way to go since we are intellectual beings.

Furthermore you have stated strange facts. As you have spoken to satan who has confirmed the existence of God…

I have very rich spiritual experience.

Idk how you randomly question God’s existence… but when you are accepting His existence you refuse to seek Him for what He is. You deny that He is Love, you deny that He can be anything that He is. You simply say He exists as a friend of Satan and has no properties of God.

Spiritual world is very extensive and complex. Suppose that you have a experience of God. How could you possibly be sure that you are not deceived by Satan? That is why I am constantly searching for truth in reality with my whole strength.

I ask you to go ahead and spend some time with God being God as a working theory. Accept, temporarily that God is God and explore Him on that basis for idk… 6 months. Pray to Him to show you peace, to free you of Satan’s influence, to lead you to Him that you might find the love that He is.

I have experience of God constantly. I rarely pray for others and not myself because I think that I can make my way with my strength. By my experience Satan can have full influence on us no matter how hard we try. It is matter of His mercy that He take things easy with us. Moreover I think that God and Satan are friends. How possibly God set Satan free so he can have His tools on us? Doesn’t this question bother you at all?

If after 6 months you have found that this working theory is 100% false, then you can move on.

But remember that tbh IF it is purely proven false then you will not get much in the way of alterbative answers on a catholic forum. Idk where you should search because 2+2=4 here and I do not know how to “prove” that it equals 5…

I have found answers to many of my question in this forum.

You have met Satan and demons per your testimony who also admit the existence of God.

I have met an Angel and seen an image of God.

I have met variety of spiritual beings, including God and Angels.

I came away with the fact that God is Love and that He is the meaning of things.

Can you tell me what is the meaning of things?

And that He wields ultinate power to dispell demons.

Why then demons are free?

You came away with the idea that satan can master you and control you and that God exists in a pointless and meaningless state that is useless to a human.

Satan give me strength and knowledge through challenges. That is why God set Satan free.

I would say these two outlooks match perfectly with everyone’s theory of how those meetings would go.

Moreso you admit that Satan is not a nice guy and that he has done evil to you.

You need to have a correct meaning of Evil. Evil does not mean wrong. I have a thread on this topic here.

So might it be God who speaks more truthfully to us and might it be that you are rejecting logic by not rejecting your self admitted evil inducing Satan and Not embracing God?

I am embracing all beings that I experience spiritually.

 

[Bahman]

I must be a glutton for punishment. But anyhow, here goes.

If we agree that meaning is not the same purpose, then maybe we can call it the force which drives us onward. We seek this meaning.

I agree with you. Meaning is the main underlying force which push us forward. Our emotions for example are derived from meaning.

Wolves must hunt. Cheetahs must run. Birds must fly. If they are kept from doing what they MUST do, they are miserable. Why? Because they have a PURPOSE that gives them MEANING.

When we have pets, depriving them of the needs of their nature is cruel. Cats must play, dogs must be given attention, because they require certain things according to their nature. The more they are allowed to express their nature, the more ‘themselves’ they are.

A chained hunting dog, a caged running dog, a guard dog with nothing to guard, a herding dog with nothing to herd – these are all sad and sorry creatures that will misbehave out of frustration and misery.

Everything has a purpose. Fulfilling that purpose makes it what it is. Being what it is supposed to be puts meaning in it.

A guard dog that guards nothing takes the meaning out of ‘guard’. A hunting dog that does not hunt takes the meaning out of ‘hunt’. A racing dog that does not race takes the meaning out of ‘race’.

If a thing is not what it is supposed to be, it loses meaning.

Now, people are more important and complicated than pets.

But we were still created for something. There is a purpose for each of us. This purpose is what we were MEANT to do – this is meaning. And the meaning comes from the one who MEANT us to do it. We can’t ask for a meaning, without asking the one who meant it.

I think you are mostly talking about emotions and reasons for a being in this part. Meaning is however underlying thing that all things you mentioned are derived from.

God is the one who MEANT our meaning. Only He can answer the question. And until you find (and accept) your particular sub-category of the meaning of life, which is “to know, love, and serve God, and be with Him forever in paradise”… You’re never going to have an answer to your question.

I think that we can find meaning too in our spiritual journeys. That to my understanding should be our main goal because God could simply give meaning in the first place which He didn’t.

 

[LethalMouse]

If God is meaning, peace and truth why He didn’t give us these at the first place. Why should our lives be meaningless? Why should our lives be restless because of following our emotions? Why should we search for truth constantly?

Just because God gave it to us doesn’t mean we accept it.

“You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink”

God gives you an endless spring of perfect water, it is whether you choose to drink it or not. If you do not, then you come here complaining God leaves you thirsty…when He does not, only you do.

I have my working theory: Think then Find and finally Judge. That is the way to go since we are intellectual beings.

If I was alone I would question myself on this, but since even as has been said before, Atheists, Muslims, Jews, Protestants, and probably Martians all have no idea what Bahman is talking about, I am not convince of you having a mildly coherent working theory.

I have very rich spiritual experience.

One that you said has driven you to madness and yet you refuse to admit that that could be a problem. I have met full blown schizophrenics and they are when not in the midst of crazy aware THEY have a problem… I really have not met anyone as stuck in their madness as you… I did a psychology paper on Sybil years ago, and honestly she is starting to look well balanced…

Spiritual world is very extensive and complex. Suppose that you have a experience of God. How could you possibly be sure that you are not deceived by Satan? That is why I am constantly searching for truth in reality with my whole strength.

This is the point, God would present as God… Satan would present God with much alteration to everything God has said before. Hence Bahman’s “madness” and never ending confusion.

I have experience of God constantly. I rarely pray for others and not myself because I think that I can make my way with my strength. By my experience Satan can have full influence on us no matter how hard we try. It is matter of His mercy that He take things easy with us. Moreover I think that God and Satan are friends. How possibly God set Satan free so he can have His tools on us? Doesn’t this question bother you at all?

No it does not, see my horse/water above. Satan is a fly buzzing near the spring, if you refuse to drink because the fly is annoying you or even bit you a few times and chose to die of thirst that is your choice.

You will not be strong enough to fight the flies unless you drink up…

I have found answers to many of my question in this forum.

It does not appear that way

Can you tell me what is the meaning of things?

God

Why then demons are free?

Flies, test, love of God… why does a parent not banish completely immediately their rebellious child who causes temptations and bad influence on their siblings???

It is called love. You forget that even if it comes down to the final judgment and there are those who are irredeemable, God still loves them like the parent of a serial killer still loves their child ONLY God’s love is beyond that.

Satan give me strength and knowledge through challenges. That is why God set Satan free.

I think Satan would be a big fan of you giving him so much credits.

You need to have a correct meaning of Evil. Evil does not mean wrong. I have a thread on this topic here.

SO you are saying that whe Bahman said “Satan has driven me to madness” that this is not because he is of ill will?

I am embracing all beings that I experience spiritually.

You can not serve two masters

You embrace God and reject the devil. To embrace both is to embrace the devil alone.

 

[SilverShadow22]

I agree with you. Meaning is the main underlying force which push us forward. Our emotions for example are derived from meaning.

I think you are mostly talking about emotions and reasons for a being in this part. Meaning is however underlying thing that all things you mentioned are derived from.

I think that we can find meaning too in our spiritual journeys. That to my understanding should be our main goal because God could simply give meaning in the first place which He didn’t.

I am not talking about emotions. It’s not an emotion which drives creatures to their purpose. It’s an innate sense, or knowledge, that there’s something we’re supposed to do, and that life will only come right when we do it.

 

[LethalMouse]

I think that we can find meaning too in our spiritual journeys. That to my understanding should be our main goal because God could simply give meaning in the first place which He didn’t.

IF as per my earlier equation:

GOD = MEANING

God then DID give us meaning in the first place.

I think that we can find meaning too in our spiritual journeys

To say as you are suggesting that you can achieve meaning without God is to reject meaning and therefore to be at the never ending questioning state you are in.

 

[MT1926]

There is no need for proof at the first stage. I first need to define things and then argue.

That is fine, but we are on page 8 now and way past the first stage. If you are still having to arguing your definition with every other poster over the course of the last 8 pages, who’s definition do you think is the incorrect one?

The problem of Jesus requires another discussion. We are talking about God who is in eternal now. Such a God can only perform one eternal act and cannot perform temporal acts.

You have not given any evidence of this, only your opinions on it. Which no one here accepts as fact.

I think that creation move on its own based on laws of nature. This is a fact since the basic structure of creation, elementary particles, has some attributes and their movement is based on laws of nature and their attributes. There was no need for all the complexity that we observe in nature if God is the mover.

Three things comes to mind here. First, you still haven’t given any evidence of the origination of the laws of nature. Second, how do you know it is complex? Maybe are tiny little minds just think it is complex. Third, if it really is as complex as it looks, maybe God set it up that way to prove to us it would be impossible for it to occur on its own.

Here’s a few quotes from a quick google search:

Physicist Eugene Wigner confesses that the mathematical underpinning of nature "is something bordering on the mysterious and there is no rational explanation for it."3

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery…The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."4

Physicist Paul C. Davies comments, "…to be a scientist, you had to have faith that the universe is governed by dependable, immutable, absolute, universal, mathematical laws of an unspecified origin. You’ve got to believe that these laws won’t fail, that we won’t wake up tomorrow to find heat flowing from cold to hot, or the speed of light changing by the hour. Over the years I have often asked my physicist colleagues why the laws of physics are what they are? …The favorite reply is, ‘There is no reason they are what they are–they just are.’"5

As it was discussed laws of nature is a part of knowledge and Meaning is underneath of knowledge because we understand any small part of knowledge through its meaning. Meaning gives us, intellectual beings, satisfaction and peace after we understand something. There could be a deeper reason for why Meaning is underneath of knowledge but I am thinking about it right now.

I think you are setting up your own definitions again.
knowl·edge ˈnäləj / noun

1. facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.
   synonyms: understanding, comprehension, grasp, command, mastery; More
2. awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation.
   “the program had been developed without his knowledge”
   synonyms: awareness, consciousness, realization, cognition, apprehension, perception, appreciation; formalcognizance
   “he slipped away without my knowledge”
   I don’t know about you but my brain is jam packed with Knowledge (facts) that have no meaning. So why do I have to have a meaning underneath the knowledge in order to gain the knowledge? I think I already stated this once, meaning doesn’t always give us satisfaction and peace, quite often it gives us pain and suffering. I think this is why you won’t bring God into the equation. Meaning in life comes through God, which sometimes brings satisfaction and peace but sometimes will also bring pain and suffering. We have to take the good with the bad to find meaning in our life. If all you are searching for is just the good in life you will never find it.

 

[po18guy]

We are given lives, we grow, we enjoy and sometimes suffer and we eventually die. It is promised that we are given new lives again, after resurrection, and we go either to Hell or Heaven. But how all these could give any meaning to our lives? How we could find peace if our lives is meaningless?

Comedian Steven Wright tells the tale that he was once a counselor at a youth camp. He went on to say that all he could do was take all of the kids down by the lake and tell them that no one really knows why we are alive and that, eventually, we will all die.

Seriously, introspection, surrender and supplication will help you find the meaning of your life. It does not matter in eternity if you find your meaning on the last day of your life. The consternation enters in due to our natural lack of patience during the search. I was about 50 when I found the meaning of my life.

My guess is that you have a bit of searching left. True desolation arrives only when you stop the search.

 

[Bahman]

Just because God gave it to us doesn’t mean we accept it.

“You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink”

God gives you an endless spring of perfect water, it is whether you choose to drink it or not. If you do not, then you come here complaining God leaves you thirsty…when He does not, only you do.

So according to your claim you know the truth, you know the meaning and you are in peace!

If I was alone I would question myself on this, but since even as has been said before, Atheists, Muslims, Jews, Protestants, and probably Martians all have no idea what Bahman is talking about, I am not convince of you having a mildly coherent working theory.

That is what we all do when we are searching for truth: Think then Find and finally Judge.

One that you said has driven you to madness and yet you refuse to admit that that could be a problem. I have met full blown schizophrenics and they are when not in the midst of crazy aware THEY have a problem… I really have not met anyone as stuck in their madness as you… I did a psychology paper on Sybil years ago, and honestly she is starting to look well balanced…

I am in good state of mind right now. What goes up falls back. We have only need to learn how to stand on our feet again.

This is the point, God would present as God… Satan would present God with much alteration to everything God has said before. Hence Bahman’s “madness” and never ending confusion.

That is not true. You cannot possibly be sure about spiritual experience.

No it does not, see my horse/water above. Satan is a fly buzzing near the spring, if you refuse to drink because the fly is annoying you or even bit you a few times and chose to die of thirst that is your choice.

You will not be strong enough to fight the flies unless you drink up…

I don’t know how your comment is related to mine. Moreover you refuse to answer my question: How possibly God set Satan free so he can have His tools on us? Doesn’t this question bother you at all?

It does not appear that way

I know that I have changed by discussing with other people.

God

That doesn’t answer my question. I asked what is the meaning if you know it as a believer?

Flies, test, love of God… why does a parent not banish completely immediately their rebellious child who causes temptations and bad influence on their siblings???

It is called love. You forget that even if it comes down to the final judgment and there are those who are irredeemable, God still loves them like the parent of a serial killer still loves their child ONLY God’s love is beyond that.

Why the Angels could possibly fall if they were is state of bliss with God?

I think Satan would be a big fan of you giving him so much credits.

I don’t think so. He does what is correct.

SO you are saying that whe Bahman said “Satan has driven me to madness” that this is not because he is of ill will?

Evil is about state of suffering and confusion. You get stronger when you suffer. I think that is a part of your teaching. We can overcome confusion by thinking throughly. That improve your sense of judgment.

You can not serve two masters \

Why not?

You embrace God and reject the devil.

I embrace both. Why that should be a problem?

To embrace both is to embrace the devil alone.

I don’t think so.

 

[Bahman]

I am not talking about emotions. It’s not an emotion which drives creatures to their purpose. It’s an innate sense, or knowledge, that there’s something we’re supposed to do, and that life will only come right when we do it.

In human being, emotions cause motion, our knowledges give us direction toward purpose, the ultimate purpose is to find Meaning.

 

[Bahman]

IF as per my earlier equation:

GOD = MEANING

God then DID give us meaning in the first place.

So what is Meaning? Do you know it considering the fact that your claim is correct?

To say as you are suggesting that you can achieve meaning without God is to reject meaning

That is not correct. You believe in God, do you know Meaning? You constantly reject to answer this question.

and therefore to be at the never ending questioning state you are in.

How could you be sure of this?