Hugo Chavez, fiery Venezuelan leader, dies at 58

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ephesians4 said:
all of which exist in the USA at levels most people in the world can only dream of.
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This sort of idealism is, however well intended, quite inaccurate and runs contrary to the facts that I have encountered.

America, for all of its qualities, is NOT a Utopia and neither is its constitution , however noble (and unrealised) it may be.

It is just a country. Like any other.

Better than many but not in EVERYTHING

. And certainly not perfect.

And if saying that America is not perfect, or even “the American Way is not for me and my people” is anti-American in somebody’s view, then hey!

you must allow me the freedom to think so.

By your own rules

After all, it is not doctrine. Merely politics.
 
kelvinf said:
What do you mean by “anti-American” if I may ask? Is it like “anti-Israel” if one opposes the illegal occupation? Or you mean someone like the US President who is equally labelled “anti-American” by some?
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see posts 20-30 for a perfect example of what I’m talking about, About the Our President,
I have never heard him called unamerican by the loyal opposition. 😛
 
SamH said:
Agreed. And I was commenting on how it is out of charactor for Reuters to assemble unemployment numbers.
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What makes you think Reuters assembled the unemployment numbers? Did you look at the graphs at all?

One of the graphs involved unemployment; there were several others showing population, infant mortality, GDP, extreme poverty numbers, etc. Guardian got the numbers from several sources, which I listed.

One omission… I didn’t notice a graph on how Chavez kept abortion illegal during his time in office. It’s too bad he couldn’t give some pointers to our own US presidents on how to accomplish this. In the meantime, he was busy being utterly demonized by pro-life Catholics. Because he didn’t want US companies controlling his country’s oil.

See how it goes, Sam? Some good… some bad. Just like you, me and everyone else.
 
Northumbrian said:
This sort of idealism is, however well intended, quite inaccurate and runs contrary to the facts that I have encountered.

America, for all of its qualities, is NOT a Utopia and neither is its constitution , however noble (and unrealised) it may be.

It is just a country. Like any other.

Better than many but not in EVERYTHING

. And certainly not perfect.

And if saying that America is not perfect, or even “the American Way is not for me and my people” is anti-American in somebody’s view, then hey!

you must allow me the freedom to think so.

By your own rules

After all, it is not doctrine. Merely politics.
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AMEN. Wish I’d said this.
 
SamH said:
Because you said they were. 🤷
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Nope. I never said that. Reuters was one of a LIST of SEVERAL sources. The sources provided lots of numbers for the graphs.

🤷 Not sure how many times I need to say it.
 
Northumbrian said:
This sort of idealism is, however well intended, quite inaccurate and runs contrary to the facts that I have encountered.

America, for all of its qualities, is NOT a Utopia and neither is its constitution , however noble (and unrealised) it may be.

It is just a country. Like any other.

Better than many but not in EVERYTHING

. And certainly not perfect.

And if saying that America is not perfect, or even “the American Way is not for me and my people” is anti-American in somebody’s view, then hey!

you must allow me the freedom to think so.

By your own rules

After all, it is not doctrine. Merely politics.
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And we have the perfect president to help you prove your thought. America is just another country now.
 
Northumbrian said:
This sort of idealism is, however well intended, quite inaccurate and runs contrary to the facts that I have encountered.

America, for all of its qualities, is NOT a Utopia and neither is its constitution , however noble (and unrealised) it may be.

It is just a country. Like any other.

Better than many but not in EVERYTHING

. And certainly not perfect.

And if saying that America is not perfect, or even “the American Way is not for me and my people” is anti-American in somebody’s view, then hey!

you must allow me the freedom to think so.

By your own rules

After all, it is not doctrine. Merely politics.
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I NOT AGAINST free speech I just want people to be fair to my country, not attack it
falsley and considering what we did for Europe, a humble gratitude would be nice.
 
Veronica7 said:
Sam, I think you are a troll. It has gotten to the point where intelligent discussion is impossible.
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I asked a simple question about the source of your claim - and you’ve dodged it with every means available. I have to agree, elevating this conversation to a factual exchange of ideas has been most maddening.
 
october_baby said:
I NOT AGAINST free speech I just want people to be fair to my country, not attack it
falsley and considering what we did for Europe, a humble gratitude would be nice.
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I thought the comment was pretty fair to our country. If you think the US is above any criticism (what you call ‘attack’)… that is blind patriotism. I am a military wife, and I know a little about that.

Not sure how the subject segued from American intervention in Venezuela, to European imperialism. At any rate, two wrongs don’t make a right.
 
october_baby said:
I NOT AGAINST free speech I just want people to be fair to my country, not attack it
falsley and considering what we did for Europe, a humble gratitude would be nice.
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I have travelled Europe extensiveley and as aconsequence of my job, I talk to a lot of people.

Europeans do not hate Americans by and large. Some do. Some hate Albanians. Some just hate.

But judging by your film industry and media, it seems you as a people are being fed a siege mentality.

It is a lie.

Hollywood makes villains with European accents (German, English etc). And that divides us. Why is anti-catholicism stilll the last permissable prejudice in both the UK and the US?

Xenophobia.

And it remains even after

One might swim a Tiber and rather it was a Mississipps, no?
 
Veronica7 said:
I thought the comment was pretty fair to our country. If you think the US is above any criticism (what you call ‘attack’)… that is blind patriotism. I am a military wife, and I know a little about that.

Not sure how the subject segued from American intervention in Venezuela, to European imperialism. At any rate, two wrongs don’t make a right.
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The only “American intervention in Venezuela” was billions of dollars paid to Venezuela for oil rights, which were eagerly accepted. Then Chavez stole from American companies what they paid for.

Kinda like buying a car then when you take it in for an oil change, the dealer keeps it and tells you…Tough cookies, get off my property.
 
SamH said:
I asked a simple question about the source of your claim - and you’ve dodged it with every means available. I have to agree, elevating this conversation to a factual exchange of ideas has been most maddening.
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No. You didn’t ask a ‘simple question’ about the graphs.

You repeatedly ‘played dumb’ as to how to see the graphs, said you couldn’t access the link, then when it was obviously working, you repeatedly asked about their ‘sources’ when the sources were listed at the bottom of the graphs.

When I pointed that out, you jumped on the fact that ONE of the sources was Reuters and baited me about ‘how they got the unemployment info’.

Man, you need to reread what you post. You haven’t commented on anything substantial, such as what the graphs actually convey. Just baiting.
 
Veronica7 said:
I thought the comment was pretty fair to our country. If you think the US is above any criticism (what you call ‘attack’)… that is blind patriotism. I am a military wife, and I know a little about that.

Not sure how the subject segued from American intervention in Venezuela, to European imperialism. At any rate, two wrongs don’t make a right.
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You can thank Limmerickman for that. once again i refer you to posts 20-30.
 
iamrefreshed said:
The only “American intervention in Venezuela” was billions of dollars paid to Venezuela for oil rights, which were eagerly accepted. Then Chavez stole from American companies what they paid for.

Kinda like buying a car then when you take it in for an oil change, the dealer keeps it and tells you…Tough cookies, get off my property.
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Unfortunately, this is not an uncommon move…our neighbors in Mexico pulled something similar decades ago. It hasn’t work out too well though…their oil industry has been struggling for years because of lack of modernization.

I’m certainly not one to give the US a free pass on foreign affairs, but in this case I don’t see where any foul was committed.
 
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