If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hi,I think if we all knew what heaven was like and how beautiful it is who would be standing on earth?When there is a good deal going on people run to the stores,so go figure.Besides I like surprises For all those who do not beleive in God and the kingdom to come I feel sorry that you journeyed all of life without a cause,maybe we should open a thread on all the mirical’s that have been performed through God’s love and power,or maybe all the prayers answered for those who beleive.I pray for these to come to the knowledge of Christ Jesus,and that the Holy Spirit will convict their hearts to see the truth and light,love of Christ Nancy

 

[benedictus2]

Hi,I think if we all knew what heaven was like and how beautiful it is who would be standing on earth?When there is a good deal going on people run to the stores,so go figure.Besides I like surprises For all those who do not beleive in God and the kingdom to come I feel sorry that you journeyed all of life without a cause,maybe we should open a thread on all the mirical’s that have been performed through God’s love and power,or maybe all the prayers answered for those who beleive.I pray for these to come to the knowledge of Christ Jesus,and that the Holy Spirit will convict their hearts to see the truth and light,love of Christ Nancy

I starting a thread on miracles would be a good idea. So why don’t you start one and give us the link

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I starting a thread on miracles would be a good idea. So why don’t you start one and give us the link

Go to Moral theology. Nancy God’s miricals in your life.

 

[Snerticus]

In response to objections to my claim heaven is God, God is heaven i offer the following. Also you cannot take everything in Genesis literally, particularly on a difficult theological matter like this when it says God created the heaven and the earth. Would it not be fair to presume that if heaven were Gods abode it had no beginning? The heaven spoken of in genesis is likely the firmament too, and not the abode of the blessed. I think heaven is God. That is the conclusion I draw from newadvent.org/fathers/1801123.htm

St Augustines
Exposition on Psalm 123

1. If, my brethren, we understand by heaven the firmament which we see with our bodily eyes, we shall indeed so err, as to imagine that we cannot ascend thither without ladders, or some scaling machines: but if we ascend spiritually, we ought to understand heaven spiritually: if the ascent be in affection, heaven is in righteousness. What is then the heaven of God? All holy souls, all righteous souls. For the Apostles also, although they were on earth in the flesh, were heaven; for the Lord, enthroned in them, traversed the whole world. He then dwells in heaven. How?..How long are they the temple according to faith? As long as Christ dwells in them through faith; as the Apostle says, That Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. But they are already heaven in whom God already dwells visibly, who see Him face to face; all the holy Apostles, all the holy Virtues, Powers, Thrones, Lordships, that heavenly Jerusalem, wanderers from whence we groan, and for which we pray with longing; and there God dwells. Thither has the Psalmist lifted up his faith, thither he rises in affection, with longing hopes: and this very longing causes the soul to purge off the filth of sins, and to be cleansed from every stain, that itself also may become heaven; because it has lifted up its eyes unto Him who dwells in heaven. For if we have determined that that heaven which we see with our bodily eyes is the dwelling of God, the dwelling of God will pass away; for heaven and earth will pass away. Matthew 24:35 Then, before God created heaven and earth, where did He dwell? But some one says: and before God made the Saints, where did He dwell? God dwelt in Himself, he dwelt with Himself, and God is with Himself. And when He deigns to dwell in the Saints, the Saints are not the house of God in such wise, as that God should fall when it is withdrawn. For we dwell in a house in one way, in another way God dwells in the Saints. Thou dwellest in a house: if it be withdrawn, you fall, but God so dwells in the Saints, that if He should Himself depart, they fall…

What are your conclusions?

Well, while I certainly agree you can’t take everything in Genesis literally, you have to take some of it that way, else we would be living a lie.

For instance, the quote I used previously: “In the beginning God created heaven and the earth” If you don’t believe this, then Christianity, Judaism, or Islam is probably not your cup of tea. Also, if you really think about it, God doesn’t need a dwelling place. He just IS. If He did not create anything like the universe or earth or man or angels and just existed by Himself, there would be no heaven, there would just be God. He doesn’t need to live or exist anywhere. St. Augustine alluded to that in your quoation. Creatures do need a dwelling place. God created everything for His creatures, the angles and the saints. Secondly, if you claim not to take this literally then you have to also admit that God did not create the earth. That was also explained in my post (and of course I was being sarcastic, hopefully in a humorous way) and it is considered hogwash by any Christian. Also, you’d have to dismiss the whole creation story as not to be taken literally, which to me is unthinkable. “You can’t take Genesis literally, therefore God did not really create anything.”

St. Augustine was pulling apart the concept of heaven, trying to explain it on levels a little loftier than just “God created heaven and earth.” As in the Bible both OT and NT, there are so many levels to understand spiritual truths, that at times no single explanation can define certain things. However, there is generally a single concept that outweighs all other explanations, and is meant primarily for us to understand it that way. You can certainly use other explanations, however the primary one must be accepted first, before making conclusions on loftier meanings.

Lastly, St. Augustine is not scripture. He certainly was wise and spriritually gifted, but his teachings are not infallible. (This really has nothing to do with what we are discussing, I’m merely pointing out a fact here… as an “aside”.)

That said, I think he makes sense and I agree with him. But first and foremost God created heaven and earth. That’s not something we can disagree on, unless one doesn’t want to remain Christian. What exactly heaven means to each and every one of us is open to interpretation - until we actually reach that goal and then we’ll have the proof we need and no interpretation will be necessary.

I can understand where you are coming from, as I believe God is the earth as well. But I mean it in another sense, as God is man, angel, heaven, earth, universe, etc… in that he is in all of creation to some degree. All of creation exhibits some form of quality of God. Heaven is no exeption. But even St. Augustine does not say that Heaven IS God. He’s merely stating that we are in heaven now because, well, heaven is the Kingdom of God and as Catholics we dwell in that Kingdom already, as do past saints and angels. He’s not contradicting that God created heaven, it’s just a little bit more ethereal explanation of heaven.

Sorry, I have to go to work now. That last paragraph may not be worded the way I want, but I’m late and have to go…

 

[Matariel]

Well, while I certainly agree you can’t take everything in Genesis literally, you have to take some of it that way, else we would be living a lie.

To tell you the truth, I don’t get the literal/metaphorical Genesis debate.

It happened literally in a mystical, unknowable way that we as fallen creatures can only comprehend by the simplified, mystical story in the Bible…

 

[benedictus2]

To tell you the truth, I don’t get the literal/metaphorical Genesis debate.

It happened literally in a mystical, unknowable way that we as fallen creatures can only comprehend by the simplified, mystical story in the Bible…

Very good point:thumbsup:

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Well, while I certainly agree you can’t take everything in Genesis literally, you have to take some of it that way, else we would be living a lie.

For instance, the quote I used previously: “In the beginning God created heaven and the earth” If you don’t believe this, then Christianity, Judaism, or Islam is probably not your cup of tea. Also, if you really think about it, God doesn’t need a dwelling place. He just IS. If He did not create anything like the universe or earth or man or angels and just existed by Himself, there would be no heaven, there would just be God. He doesn’t need to live or exist anywhere. St. Augustine alluded to that in your quoation. Creatures do need a dwelling place. God created everything for His creatures, the angles and the saints. Secondly, if you claim not to take this literally then you have to also admit that God did not create the earth. That was also explained in my post (and of course I was being sarcastic, hopefully in a humorous way) and it is considered hogwash by any Christian. Also, you’d have to dismiss the whole creation story as not to be taken literally, which to me is unthinkable. “You can’t take Genesis literally, therefore God did not really create anything.”

St. Augustine was pulling apart the concept of heaven, trying to explain it on levels a little loftier than just “God created heaven and earth.” As in the Bible both OT and NT, there are so many levels to understand spiritual truths, that at times no single explanation can define certain things. However, there is generally a single concept that outweighs all other explanations, and is meant primarily for us to understand it that way. You can certainly use other explanations, however the primary one must be accepted first, before making conclusions on loftier meanings.

Lastly, St. Augustine is not scripture. He certainly was wise and spriritually gifted, but his teachings are not infallible. (This really has nothing to do with what we are discussing, I’m merely pointing out a fact here… as an “aside”.)

That said, I think he makes sense and I agree with him. But first and foremost God created heaven and earth. That’s not something we can disagree on, unless one doesn’t want to remain Christian. What exactly heaven means to each and every one of us is open to interpretation - until we actually reach that goal and then we’ll have the proof we need and no interpretation will be necessary.

I can understand where you are coming from, as I believe God is the earth as well. But I mean it in another sense, as God is man, angel, heaven, earth, universe, etc… in that he is in all of creation to some degree. All of creation exhibits some form of quality of God. Heaven is no exeption. But even St. Augustine does not say that Heaven IS God. He’s merely stating that we are in heaven now because, well, heaven is the Kingdom of God and as Catholics we dwell in that Kingdom already, as do past saints and angels. He’s not contradicting that God created heaven, it’s just a little bit more ethereal explanation of heaven.

Sorry, I have to go to work now. That last paragraph may not be worded the way I want, but I’m late and have to go…

Thx for that. As I mention the authors of genesis did not know heaven as an abode of the blessed existed at all. This was revealed for the first time to Moses by God. People did not know about eternal life before then. Scripture can have several meanings in each verse provided it does not contradict the main meaning a pope said. The author of genesis was inspired to write but was not a puppet and he could not know of the heaven that is God. Heaven can be a place, state or thing or any combination of them and all or some of them can be God. It’s all getting a bit confusing. I don’t declare a new dogma here but I like my theory and thus far and cannot see where the church or reason forbids it.
If I’m wrong please show me. I must have a nap now because I stayed up all night praying and spending too much time here. See u later:shrug:

 

[benedictus2]

I like this paragraph from the CCC:

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.

And in John15 Jesus quotes Psalms in describing the worlds’ attitude towards deity:

“But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’”

God *always *loved man. The unnatural separation of man from God comes from mans’ side-his unreasonable lack of trust in and love for God.

In no greater way has God demonstrated His love to a world which undeservedly denied that love than by the life, death, and resurrection of His Son-of Himself. The resurrection (meaning for us the promise of eternal life) cannot be separated from the love of God.

Very good point.

I have always wondered in the account of the fall, if instead of passing the buck Adam and Even just said, yes, we did eat of the tree because we wanted to be like you, I wondered how that would have panned out.

I think one of the consequences of the fall is this lack of remorse or recognition of ones sin coupled with a very unhealthy fear of God because we fall prey to the lies of the devil. Probably why Jesus says over and over again, “Be not afraid”, “Fear not”.

Perhaps that is another consequence. That having been loved by God unconditionally, they now could not see that love once they sinned. That’s why He needed to show humanity just how much He loves, to the point of death.

I think the realization of how great that Love is, is the first step of true repentance and reconciliation with Him.
Just a thought.

 

[MariaG]

Originally posted by Realcatholicgk post #77
Hi Maria,

**You better start ducking before they all start throwing stones! Let God judge your heart! Maybe you expect more from yourself then God does, But knowing the “greatest commandment” maybe not! At least we know that our God is a mercyful God! **
**I often tell the story of the young boy awaken by God and told to give his master, the king, a message, the boy goes and the King says “Wait, how will I know the message is really from God? Go back to sleep and if God awakes you again tell Him I want to know what was the last sin I confessed was, If He tells you I will know that the message is really from him.” The boy went back to sleep. Later God again woke him. The boy told God what the king had said. The boy ran to the king with God’s message. The King said “What did God say my last sin was?” The Boy replied, “God said to tell you that He forgave you and he really can’t remember!” The King then listened to God’s message! **

This cute story shows a real religious truth, God forgives us all our sins, Of cource we will have to pay the wages of sin, but we do not have to suffer eternal damnation due to them!

**Relax, God loves you and I just the way He made us! I can’t wait to see what He finally makes of me when He is finished! I hope to be like a lot more like St.Genesisus, the patron saint of clowns. And when I die God says: “Send in the Clowns!” **

God Bless

Thank you!

I was just getting ready to sign out even though I haven’t caught up yet, but decided I better check this thread.

Your post made me smile and I think I will stop there and leave with the peace of the Lord in my heart.

Thank you, you seem to be one of the few who get what I have been saying without getting stoned by the rocks!

I am so thankful as a Catholic for the sacrament of Reconcilliation. As a Protestant, in the privacy of my own bedroom, frequently even though I know I had perfect contrition over certain issues, they would come back and bother me. People always said that was just Satan.

But with Confession, that never happens. God truly does forget and does not allow Satan to harrass me either!

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Cinette]

Being on Catholic Answers Forums is magic! We communicate with all kinds of people on all kinds of topics - we learn, share and grow.

The Communion of Saints is not just our looking to the Saints in Heaven for intercression and their lives as role models - We are also in communion with our brothers and sisters in Christ and other children of God here on earth. The Communion of Saints is communion with all of God’s creation. We learn from everybody and this platform gives us the opportunity to know other people and to share with them. The Internet is amazing!

On another thread about the rosary, Protestants have admitted to praying the rosary and its effects on their lives. A moment ago I read a posting from a Sikh who said he prays the rosary every day and I asked him what the Gospels and Mary mean to him and this is his response:

Originally Posted by Cinette
This is a surprise. What do the Gospels and Mary mean in your life?

*that’s a very good question. to me the Gospel of the Lord is the Word of God and I treat it as the hukamnama (the Sikh equivalent to the Gospel) I mean the Lord has been so merciful to us and He has nothing but compassion for us. so why not praise him? to me the Gopels and the teachings of the Sikh Religion are both pathways to the Almighty. Mother Mary gave up so much for us. She sacrificed her son for our redemption and I believe this makes her our Maa, out mother, and out of due respect she deserves praise.

May God Bless You Alway *

Isn’t this amazing? I am overwhelmed!

God love you all
Cinette

 

[manveersihota]

i would pray to God even if I were not to reap any benefits.

 

[Cinette]

i would pray to God even if I were not to reap any benefits.

Gosh Manveersihota you certainly are quick. Here I am talking about you and you pop up!!! LOL.

Was it your Guardian Angel who perhaps nudged you and said "C’mon - take a look at this. They are talking about you!!! LOL

God love you
Cinette

 

[manveersihota]

Gosh Manveersihota you certainly are quick. Here I am talking about you and you pop up!!! LOL.

Was it your Guardian Angel who perhaps nudged you and said "C’mon - take a look at this. They are talking about you!!! LOL

God love you
Cinette

lol maybe, i just was search random topics and this came up

I just realized how many typos i had. my bad.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Being on Catholic Answers Forums is magic! We communicate with all kinds of people on all kinds of topics - we learn, share and grow.

The Communion of Saints is not just our looking to the Saints in Heaven for intercression and their lives as role models - We are also in communion with our brothers and sisters in Christ and other children of God here on earth. The Communion of Saints is communion with all of God’s creation. We learn from everybody and this platform gives us the opportunity to know other people and to share with them. The Internet is amazing!

On another thread about the rosary, Protestants have admitted to praying the rosary and its effects on their lives. A moment ago I read a posting from a Sikh who said he prays the rosary every day and I asked him what the Gospels and Mary mean to him and this is his response:

Originally Posted by Cinette
This is a surprise. What do the Gospels and Mary mean in your life?

*that’s a very good question. to me the Gospel of the Lord is the Word of God and I treat it as the hukamnama (the Sikh equivalent to the Gospel) I mean the Lord has been so merciful to us and He has nothing but compassion for us. so why not praise him? to me the Gopels and the teachings of the Sikh Religion are both pathways to the Almighty. Mother Mary gave up so much for us. She sacrificed her son for our redemption and I believe this makes her our Maa, out mother, and out of due respect she deserves praise.

May God Bless You Alway *

Isn’t this amazing? I am overwhelmed!

God love you all
Cinette

**Hi Cinette,

It just goes to show that People see different things, I am underwhelmed by what was said. Mary didn’t sacrifice Jesus. Also, Sikh do not believe in Jesus as God! They believe in only God the Father.

You can’t practice two different belief systems at the same time! That is foolish at best! False beliefs at worse!

I wonder why he professes a love for Mary? As a sikh Jesus was only a human.

Jesus as God, gave her to the Catholic church as our Mother! Jesus died willingly for the forgivness of our sins. His death was a gift to us from Him as God!

I guess the rosary might help pull him closer to Jesus and the real trachings as demonstrated by the Catholic church! But I still wonder… :whacky: :coffeeread: **

 

[Cinette]

lol maybe, i just was search random topics and this came up

I just realized how many typos i had. my bad.

I understand your preoccupation with typos - maybe you should read thru the text before posting.

What is embarrassing is bad grammar. There are people on these forums who do not know the difference between compliment and complement (LOL) their and there (LOL) your and you’re and so and and so forth…

Look forward to your postings

God love you
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

**Hi Cinette,

It just goes to show that People see different things, I am underwhelmed by what was said. Mary didn’t sacrifice Jesus. Also, Sikh do not believe in Jesus as God! They believe in only God the Father.

You can’t practice two different belief systems at the same time! That is foolish at best! False beliefs at worse!

I wonder why he professes a love for Mary? As a sikh Jesus was only a human.

Jesus as God, gave her to the Catholic church as our Mother! Jesus died willingly for the forgivness of our sins. His death was a gift to us from Him as God!

I guess the rosary might help pull him closer to Jesus and the real trachings as demonstrated by the Catholic church! But I still wonder… :whacky: :coffeeread: **

Thank you for the correction - you are absolutely right of course.

I was touched with our friend the Sikh and I believe the Holy Spirit will guide him as he has already done so far.

Thank you anyway.

Blessings
Cinette

 

[wina]

I’ve been following this thread. And it’s absolutely amazed me with all the answers.

 

[Dameedna]

Excellent points Damedna.

If you turn your ideas on their head and substitute the word Love for fear, you are beginning to understand what some of us have come to know and experience is the real God - the God who came to us in a Person and was willing to suffer for us, so that we would not have to suffer the eternal loss of God, the eternal loss of Love.

The Kingdom of God is not God ruling people by means of fear, but by means of love.

Ahh…yes to a degree, I can understand why people “love” christ for what he was claimed to have done. But I’m afraid to say, as soon as you go down that path you are to me, still somewhat heading in the wrong direction.

You are under the impression that some-one “deserves” to suffer in the first place.

There is no “reason” for one to suffer for us, so that we do not need to suffer as though God MUST have some-one suffering. To suffer for what purpose? This…is not love either.

I agree with the concept that “suffering” can help us to grow and to become more loving individuals. In fact I think this is in MANY cases, completey and utterly accurate. But that kind of suffering, is not the same as that which you speak of. You speak of a form of suffering that is a payment of some kind. This, is where I dont’ agree.

The whole idea is rather appalling to me, and doesn’t even come close to presenting how I feel about the concept or idea of Love.(and another reason I don’t agree with traditional christian concepts)

Neither the God of Fear nor the God of punishment represents love in my understanding.

Edited to say: Punishment is very different than discipline in my book also, so I have no issue with Discipline being lovingly given as any parent will do for a child. But this is not the kind of “suffering” and “punishment” people are usually talking about when they talk about God, and the “final judgment” and eternal heaven/hell options.

 

[Dameedna]

I know I would not be able to love unless I first experienced and RECEIVED God’s love first. It is God’s love for me that allows and enables me to love myself and others.

This is interesting, and it’s something I’ve been pondering for a while. I won’t get into too much detail, but it is very interesting to observer(from a distance) the way in which people relate to love.

If a person has not really experienced love, they will not understand it, nor will they recognize it. I don’t hate people who “hate” others. I pity them. How aweful would it truly be, to be completely removed from that which is loving?

It is an absolute requirement of life, that if you are to be loving, you need to have experienced it.For some, they only seem to find it through a religious experience and for those people, even if I don’t agree with their religion…I’m am very happy for them.

 

[Snerticus]

If I’m wrong please show me. I must have a nap now because I stayed up all night praying and spending too much time here. See u later:shrug:

LOL, this forum is more addicting than any other forum I have belonged to. I have been “almost” late I don’t know how many times for work because I write a post and take so long on it that time gets away with me and I rush out the door in a panic.

As for you being right - sure, in a way. Like I said, there are just too many ways to interpret Bible passages in general. But I’m right too… so is just about everyone else here.