If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?

[twb1621]

Ahh…yes to a degree, I can understand why people “love” christ for what he was claimed to have done. But I’m afraid to say, as soon as you go down that path you are to me, still somewhat heading in the wrong direction.

“What He has claimed to have done?”

If you were to research the prophecies of the Old Testament in regard to the coming and life of the Messiah they are very easily related to the Life and passion of Christ. It would be extremely difficult at best to even justify doubt they are not one in the same. In this regard it is obvious that God the Father and Supreme Being and Creator spoke through these prophets in expressing Jesus forthcoming. This is to speak nothing of the events that took place during His life and Ministry. Scholars and Historians alike regardless of their theological beliefs or non-beliefs have concluded based on history and archeological finds that He and the events that took place are authentic including the crucifixion. A further understanding of human nature will support the events of His resurrection as well.
As far as reason for His suffering, the question is not whether God so loved us as to send His Son to suffer for us, but that the sinful lives all lived led to our putting Him under such torture and suffering and death. God knew what it would take for us as human beings to understand the depth of love He holds for us and yet still there are those who do not accept what He offers each of us in His love and mercy.

As far as suffering on our part, the suffering of the world is generated by the father of this world for many reasons all of which lead to a test or weakening faith or placing blame on God for what goes wrong and how we suffer. Yet no one blames Satan. Isn’t that ironic?

Review the following excerpts:
“ …Jesus was not simply true God, but also true man. As true God, Jesus could not suffer, yet in his humanity
this was possible. Knowing the future even in His human intellect, Jesus’ humanity naturally recoiled from the sight of the immense suffering He was about to endure. Yet ultimately there was no disobedience towards His Father, for Jesus’ human will triumphantly submitted to the Divine: “nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt” (St. Matt. 26:39).
As for the Disciples, they were not exempt from the deficiencies that afflicted all men. According to the Scriptures they suffered from pride, weakness, ignorance as well as cowardice: “And he said to them, ‘Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?’” (St. Mark 4:13).
These faults manifested themselves on a number of occasions long before Jesus’ passion and persisted (as in the case of Judas’ greed) despite having the benefit of Jesus’ intimate teachings and example for three years. What transformed all of them after the death and resurrection of Jesus was the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost: “And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be
with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you” (St. John 14:17).
After Pentecost, the Apostles preached the resurrected Christ with courage and conviction: “Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified … And fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles” (Acts 2: 26 & 43).
But even if they were now men of courage, the Apostles had nothing to gain from foisting a huge deception upon the world. Why would the Apostles compile written Gospels all speaking of the crucifixion of Christ that also showed themselves to be ignorant, cowardly, and denying; and why would they continue to preach
the resurrected Christ even unto death? These are facts that testify to their sincerity.
Whenever Jesus spoke or preached, He frequently quoted from the Old Testament Scriptures. This is not surprising, considering that the Old Testament contains over three hundred prophecies relating to the coming of the Messiah. Perhaps the most prophetic messianic part of the Old Testament is Psalm 22 (21). It is from this psalm that Jesus uttered the above words. Why did He do so? To prompt the Scribes and harisees before him into a certain realization. The Scribes and Pharisees generally knew the Scriptures by heart. Simply by hearing the first line of a psalm their memories should have been triggered, and recalled the whole psalm. Jesus wanted the Jews to recall the whole of Psalm 22 (21) and realize that they were fulfilling it step by step while watching and mocking Him on the Cross. However, the Jews failed to pick up the hint and thought that Jesus was just calling upon Elias.

continued to post 2 of 2

 

[twb1621]

post 2 of 2

Christians see in hindsight that Psalm 22 (21) foretold that the Messiah would be crucified and that Jesus’ crucifixion fulfiled the following verses:
“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from
helping me, from the words of my groaning?” (v. 1).
“But I am a worm, and no man; scorned by men, and despised by the
people” (v. 6).
“All who see me mock at me, they make mouths at me, they wag their
heads” (v. 7).
“He committed his cause to the Lord; let him deliver him, let him rescue
him, for he delights in him!” (v. 8).
“They open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion” (v.
13).
“I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is
like wax, it is melted within my breast” (v. 14).
“My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my
jaws; thou dost lay me in the dust of death” (v. 15).
“Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they
have pierced my hands and feet” (v. 16).
“I can count all my bones––they stare and gloat over me” (v. 17).
“They divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots”
(v. 18).
Jesus’ words from the Cross can also be understood in a mystical sense. For
love of man, Jesus of His own free will chose to place no human limit on
His suffering, pouring out His Blood to the very last drop. It is possible to
speculate that Jesus also endured and offered up a suffering that would
have been greater than any other––the sensation in His human intellect of
total abandonment even by His Father in heaven. Of course, God never
abandons any of His servants, let alone His only Son. Nevertheless, in the
history of the Church, a number of the most elevated Saints endured such a
sensation of abandonment in the so-called ‘dark night of the soul.’ The
purpose of such is to purify the soul of every vestige of self-love so that it
loves God for God’s sake alone, not for any consolation He may confer.
For Jesus, it would have been not an opportunity for total purification but a
demonstration of the greatest love for His Father at a time when all things
for Him seemed humanly lost. His certain knowledge of the Father’s love
and unity with Himself is evident in His dying words, “Father, into thy
hands I commit my spirit” (St. Luke 23:46).”

Continued at
lumenverum.org/apologetics/DefendtheFaith/page342.html

 

[jkiernan56]

Ahh…yes to a degree, I can understand why people “love” christ for what he was claimed to have done. But I’m afraid to say, as soon as you go down that path you are to me, still somewhat heading in the wrong direction.

You are under the impression that some-one “deserves” to suffer in the first place.

There is no “reason” for one to suffer for us, so that we do not need to suffer as though God MUST have some-one suffering. To suffer for what purpose? This…is not love either.

I agree with the concept that “suffering” can help us to grow and to become more loving individuals. In fact I think this is in MANY cases, completey and utterly accurate. But that kind of suffering, is not the same as that which you speak of. You speak of a form of suffering that is a payment of some kind. This, is where I dont’ agree.

The whole idea is rather appalling to me, and doesn’t even come close to presenting how I feel about the concept or idea of Love.(and another reason I don’t agree with traditional christian concepts)

Neither the God of Fear nor the God of punishment represents love in my understanding.

Edited to say: Punishment is very different than discipline in my book also, so I have no issue with Discipline being lovingly given as any parent will do for a child. But this is not the kind of “suffering” and “punishment” people are usually talking about when they talk about God, and the “final judgment” and eternal heaven/hell options.

God is not only a God of LOVE but a God of JUSTICE. Christ’s act of saying YES to His Father and allowing Himself to be crucified on the Cross (something He did not have to do or allow others to do to Him) … was an act of LOVE that satisfies the JUSTICE of God.

Damneeda, maybe you have an issue with how God made reparation for the INJUSTICE of mankind? You and I don’t even deserve to exist let alone have the ability to make choices and in reality/actuality be able to say “NO” to our Creator. Reparation for mankind’s INJUSTICE was made through the cross of Christ to satisfy God’s LOVE/JUSTICE. You cannot separate God’s LOVE and God’s JUSTICE. They are one and the same reality.

The reason why Christ’s act of dying on the cross has so much weight (so much so that it satisfies the Infinite and Eternal JUSTICE of God) is because the PERSON who died on the cross was not just an ordinary human being - but rather was the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity. The God/man made satisfaction for God on behalf of mankind.

God created us when He did not have to.

God gave mankind a free-will to make choices to actually be able to love God and be in a relationship with God.

Mankind screwed up and with the use of free-will made UNJUST choices and said “NO” to God through disobedience.

The JUSTICE of God was offended.

This JUSTICE of God was repaired by the God/man Christ through His “YES” to allowing Himself to be crucified on the cross.

Mankind said “NO” to God and the God/man said “YES”.
God’s LOVE and JUSTICE were satisfied in the Cross of Christ.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

The thread is straying from the OP’s topic. Please be considerate and start new threads to discuss side issues. Thank you all.

 

[WAYNE_LEYDS]

Hi Wayne
It’s not a spiritual question in which of course you’re right. It’s a philosophical forum here and a search for truth. It’s just a debate and a look for meaning. We carry on about words and meaning here. That’s all. If you want to discuss spiritual matters like selflessness and selfishness etc then that is great and you can do that in the spirituality forum or to discuss the moral aspect you can also go to the moral theology forum. I hope I’ve helped here

the question is simple but you fail to see it. a spade is a spade is a spade is a spade.there is nothing philosophical about it. it seems you are trying to look deep into a solid wall!!!

 

[jkiernan56]

the question is simple but you fail to see it. a spade is a spade is a spade is a spade.there is nothing philosophical about it. it seems you are trying to look deep into a solid wall!!!

The subject of Existence is not Philosophical? Good grief …

 

[WAYNE_LEYDS]

The subject of Existence is not Philosophical? Good grief …

lol i was referring to the original question. not existence.i apologise if i did not make myself clear enough.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Peace of Christ to everyone who visits this thread!

A priest once gave this one liner homily (can’t remember now what the readings were) for the faithful to ponder upon.

I have asked the same question of a few friends and got some good and some quite angry reactions. One said the question was stupid.

The question of course is purely hypothetical and every Christian knows there is a heaven.

But hypothetically, if there is no heaven, if this life here on earth is the only life that God is giving us, would you still love God and follow His commands?

Looking forward to some interesting responses.

Well…The question is meaningless. If there is no heaven; there is no God.

 

[jkiernan56]

Well…The question is meaningless. If there is no heaven; there is no God.

Absolutely NOT TRUE. God is not created. Heaven was created just as everything else in the Universe was. God would exist even if Heaven had never been created.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Absolutely NOT TRUE. God is not created. Heaven was created just as everything else in the Universe was. God would exist even if Heaven had never been created.

That depends on your concept of heaven.
The true root of happiness and desire is obviously God
It is the nature of God that completes us and fulfills us.
It is in God that we find joy. Not a place.
Heaven exists necessarily in the nature and experience of God. You cannot logically separate the two.

That is not to say that we won’t experience the “Beatific Vision”, in a “place”. Heaven, for the sake of human nature, may very well be experienced as a place. Its easier to understand it as a place of pleasure out there somewhere; but that is a very simple view of a much greater reality. The “Beatific Vision” is not a place.

 

[MindOverMatter]

That is true. But that still does not make God is Heaven true, because one’s abode is not one’s self. Above and self are two different things. God is not His Above.

Gods abode is himself. God is Existence. Heaven exists necessarily because God exists. Heaven extends from Gods nature which is love & perfection. God would not be God, if there was no heaven. The nature of heaven is found in God and is God for God is the root of all joy and happiness. God is perfection. Such things emanates from Gods being. To say that God has an abode, that is called heaven, is not the same as saying that somebody lives in a perfect house. That is not a correct understanding of heaven. That is just a metaphor. God is perfection. God houses all of nature.

 

[wina]

God is not only a God of LOVE but a God of JUSTICE. Christ’s act of saying YES to His Father and allowing Himself to be crucified on the Cross (something He did not have to do or allow others to do to Him) … was an act of LOVE that satisfies the JUSTICE of God.

Damneeda, maybe you have an issue with how God made reparation for the INJUSTICE of mankind? You and I don’t even deserve to exist let alone have the ability to make choices and in reality/actuality be able to say “NO” to our Creator. Reparation for mankind’s INJUSTICE was made through the cross of Christ to satisfy God’s LOVE/JUSTICE. You cannot separate God’s LOVE and God’s JUSTICE. They are one and the same reality.

The reason why Christ’s act of dying on the cross has so much weight (so much so that it satisfies the Infinite and Eternal JUSTICE of God) is because the PERSON who died on the cross was not just an ordinary human being - but rather was the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity. The God/man made satisfaction for God on behalf of mankind.

God created us when He did not have to.

God gave mankind a free-will to make choices to actually be able to love God and be in a relationship with God.

Mankind screwed up and with the use of free-will made UNJUST choices and said “NO” to God through disobedience.

The JUSTICE of God was offended.

This JUSTICE of God was repaired by the God/man Christ through His “YES” to allowing Himself to be crucified on the cross.

Mankind said “NO” to God and the God/man said “YES”.
God’s LOVE and JUSTICE were satisfied in the Cross of Christ.

Well said:thumbsup:

 

[MindOverMatter]

Actually, your answer make the question very valid. If I understand your answer right, it is a yes, you will love God even without the reward of heaven.
A friend I posed this question to said that if there is no heaven he will be out for himself. Yet he is a Christian or at least claims to be.

God seeks to perfect Man; because Gods nature is Love & Perfection. Man ought to be in heaven and ought to want heaven because that is what we was created for; and the human soul cannot rest, until it rests in eternal perfection. But most people mistake heaven for a place in which one can stuff ones face with an infinite amount of cake and not get sick. They think it is simply a place of extreme worldly pleasure. But this is not heaven. Physical reality is at the most a mere metaphor; a pale comparison to the spiritual fulfillment that is found in God.

It would be a selfish act on Gods part if he were to not share his divine and eternal nature with Man. Such a being would not be God, for it is logically impossible for God to sin. Heaven is an eternal relationship with God, and it is natural and good for us to desire it.

It is a Great Mortal Sin, to not want heaven. For it is the same as not wanting Love. There would be no point in creating people if it was not for the purpose of human participation within the divine nature that is God. And God is eternal love. If there was no heaven, then there would be no God worth believing in, or loving, because a good God would want us to receive eternal perfection, for it is in Gods very nature to give it.

The God that you speak of is not God. Therefore i would seek my own glory or commit suicide.

In any case, nobody truly loves God without Gods grace. We are sinners. If we loved God, we would not sin.

 

[jkiernan56]

MindOverMatter:

That depends on your concept of heaven.
The true root of happiness and desire is obviously God
It is the nature of God that completes us and fulfills us.
It is in God that we find joy. Not a place.
Heaven exists necessarily in the nature and experience of God. You cannot logically separate the two.

That is not to say that we won’t experience the “Beatific Vision”, in a “place”. Heaven, for the sake of human nature, may very well be experienced as a place. Its easier to understand it as a place of pleasure out there somewhere; but that is a very simple view of a much greater reality. The “Beatific Vision” is not a place.

Gods abode is himself. God is Existence. Heaven exists necessarily because God exists. Heaven extends from Gods nature which is love & perfection. God would not be God, if there was no heaven. The nature of heaven is found in God and is God for God is the root of all joy and happiness. God is perfection. Such things emanates from Gods being. To say that God has an abode, that is called heaven, is not the same as saying that somebody lives in a perfect house. That is not a correct understanding of heaven. That is just a metaphor. God is perfection. God houses all of nature.

MindOverMatter, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Heaven is not just a state of being but a place as well. It is not just ME and God … It is Me and We and God. We being Us - The Bride of Christ - The Church - The Family of God. We will be not only be enjoying God in Heaven - but We will also be enjoying EACH OTHER in Heaven as well. I definitely think there will be interpersonal interaction. I can’t even begin to fathom what the Choirs of Heaven will sound like … just the thought amazes me.

 

[MindOverMatter]

MindOverMatter, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Heaven is not just a state of being but a place as well.

Simply asserting that heaven is a place does not give me any reason to agree with you.

It is not just ME and God … It is Me and We and God. We being Us - The Bride of Christ - The Church - The Family of God

Yes. So why does that mean that heaven is a place? If God is the cause of our joy and perfection, then how does it logically follow then that God is a place? Like you said God is not his creation. Place or no place, the cause of our happiness will be God alone. It will not be and never will be the place in which we experience that eternal joy. God is the root of my joy. Not a place.

 

[jkiernan56]

Simply asserting that heaven is a place does not give me any reason to agree with you.

Yes. So why does that mean that heaven is a place? If God is the cause of our joy and perfection, then how does it logically follow then that God is a place? Like you said God is not his creation. Place or no place, the cause of our happiness will be God alone. It will not be and never will be the place in which we experience that eternal joy. God is the root of my joy. Not a place.

You and I are on the same page when it comes to the cause of our happiness. I just happen to think that in addition to the Beatific Vision …that Heaven is also a place … I can’t prove that … but it is a gut feeling having to do with my experience of the Body of Christ . I think we will also see Christ just as the disciples did after the Resurrection. Not only will we see Christ, but each other distinctly as well

 

[Eucharisted]

If God dose not exist, there can be no Heaven.

Now, if you asked me if I went to Hell would I still love God? No. Those in Hell hate God and despise His goodness, for they have rejected God. And if I rejected God, I would be the same.

 

[allhers]

But hypothetically, if there is no heaven, if this life here on earth is the only life that God is giving us, would you still love God and follow His commands?

Oh yes, sometimes while at Adoration I just kneel there and thank Him for loving the way He does. I would so like to have a heart like His, one of my favorite prayers is: Make my heart like unto thine. I know I will never attain that, but I would so love to love others as He does.

Another reason I am grateful for the gift of life is because of all the love, beauty and just breath-taking things of God that I have witnessed, experienced and shared with others because of His love for us. My family, parents, my grandmother, sisters and brothers, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc…my friends, the Priests and Sisters that taught me, being a daughter, grand daughter,sister, neice, friend, aunt, God mother, wife, mother, sister-in-law, and grandmother.
I have always been drawn to the things of His creation, most of all people of course, (then animals) but… the sunrises, sunsets, mountains, oceans, rainbows, waterfalls, stars, flowers, deserts, hills, lakes, you name it, if God created it, I have enjoyed looking at it, swimming in it, boating in it, skiing on it, gazing at it, just being able to share His creation with others.

Once when I was about 3 years old I found a tiny bunch of flowers (I believe they were called blue bells), growing under a large plant (older children and adults hadn’t seen them), because they were hidden by the plant and unless you were as small as I was then they went unnoticed… I ran to get my mother to show her, she said…“Isn’t God good, he planted those there just for you!” I always believed that, still do. He is so good!! He has given me the gift of that memory and of still hearing her voice, even though she has long passed on. I believe the reason why that particular memory made such an impression on me is because it was really the first time that I believed, or perhaps understood that God really did love me. He has given me the gift of so many other beautiful memories too and has made my life complete. I am so grateful to God for so many reasons.

I would still obey His commandments because I wouldn’t want to offend Him, (but I am sure I do several time daily, by my thoughts, words, deeds, and deeds left undone.)

Even with all the pain, sadness, and at times feeling broken hearted for various reasons, especially when “losing” loved ones, this world does at times seem like heaven on earth, thanks be to our good Lord and the Blessed Mother, the angels and saints, all who have been my life long companions. But…I do hope and believe there is more.

 

[wina]

benedictus2;4813574:

But hypothetically, if there is no heaven, if this life here on earth is the only life that God is giving us, would you still love God and follow His commands?

Oh yes, sometimes while at Adoration I just kneel there and thank Him for loving the way He does. I would so like to have a heart like His, one of my favorite prayers is: Make my heart like unto thine. I know I will never attain that, but I would so love to love others as He does.

Another reason I am grateful for the gift of life is because of all the love, beauty and just breath-taking things of God that I have witnessed, experienced and shared with others because of His love for us. My family, parents, my grandmother, sisters and brothers, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc…my friends, the Priests and Sisters that taught me, being a daughter, grand daughter,sister, neice, friend, aunt, God mother, wife, mother, sister-in-law, and grandmother.
I have always been drawn to the things of His creation, most of all people of course, (then animals) but… the sunrises, sunsets, mountains, oceans, rainbows, waterfalls, stars, flowers, deserts, hills, lakes, you name it, if God created it, I have enjoyed looking at it, swimming in it, boating in it, skiing on it, gazing at it, just being able to share His creation with others.

Once when I was about 3 years old I found a tiny bunch of flowers (I believe they were called blue bells), growing under a large plant (older children and adults hadn’t seen them), because they were hidden by the plant and unless you were as small as I was then they went unnoticed… I ran to get my mother to show her, she said…“Isn’t God good, he planted those there just for you!” I always believed that, still do. He is so good!! He has given me the gift of that memory and of still hearing her voice, even though she has long passed on. I believe the reason why that particular memory made such an impression on me is because it was really the first time that I believed, or perhaps understood that God really did love me. He has given me the gift of so many other beautiful memories too and has made my life complete. I am so grateful to God for so many reasons.

I would still obey His commandments because I wouldn’t want to offend Him, (but I am sure I do several time daily, by my thoughts, words, deeds, and deeds left undone.)

Even with all the pain, sadness, and at times feeling broken hearted for various reasons, especially when “losing” loved ones, this world does at times seem like heaven on earth, thanks be to our good Lord and the Blessed Mother, the angels and saints, all who have been my life long companions. But…I do hope and believe there is more.

Wow, it’s very wonderful experience

 

[Matariel]

Simply asserting that heaven is a place does not give me any reason to agree with you.

Heaven is both a spiritual state of experiencing the beatific vision as well as a superphysical location (probably not in our universe). Otherwise where would our ressurected, superphysical bodies go after the final ressurection of the dead?