If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?

[twb1621]

In response to objections to my claim heaven is God, God is heaven i offer the following. Also you cannot take everything in Genesis literally, particularly on a difficult theological matter like this when it says God created the heaven and the earth. Would it not be fair to presume that if heaven were Gods abode it had no beginning? The heaven spoken of in genesis is likely the firmament too, and not the abode of the blessed. I think heaven is God. That is the conclusion I draw from newadvent.org/fathers/1801123.htm

What are your conclusions?

Interesting I do believe…

For heaven is a definite place, where not only God is, and the angels now are, but where Christ is also in His sacred humanity, and Our Lady with her human body. There, too, all the blessed will dwell with their glorified bodies after the last Judgment. If heaven is a definite locality, it must accordingly be a visible, not a spiritual kingdom; for a place must in its nature be to some extent conformable to those who abide init.

Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified will live forever with Jesus in His Kingdom called Heaven. Heaven is reference to a state of eternal happiness gained after death. It is the result of being faithful in the service of GOD during one’s lifetime:

“…I shall go, and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will take you to Myself; that where I Am, you also may be.” St.John 14:3

The vastness of heaven is immeasurable for us to comprehend as the prophet Baruch exclaims:

“O Israel, how great is the house of God, and how vast is the place of His possession! It is great and hath not end, it is high and immense”

Baruch 3:24 We can readily believe this, for we have before our eyes the boundless realms of space.

Although the beauty of heaven may be incomprehensible to us in this life (1 Cor 2:9) yet we can to some extent picture them to our imagination. It would be contrary to common sense to thing that the vast heavenly kingdom would be empty and bare. If princes and rulers fill every space, and leaveno corner in their palaces or their grounds unembellished and unadorned, shall we suppose that the great King of heaven would permit His regal palace, His celestial paradise, to be lacking in magnificence and in beauty? What would there be to delight the senses of the saints if heaven were a largeempty space? We also have Christ’s words " In my Father’s house there’re many mansions" - John 14:2. Hence it may be inferred that each one of the redeemed has their own degree of glory according to the degree of merit they attained wh the jasper stone, even as crystal. The city itself was of pure gold, like unto glass, and the foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all manner of precious stones" - (Apoc. 21:11).

continued at
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/heaven.htm

 

[jkiernan56]

If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children. St Basil

Excellent !!! Thank you for this

 

[jkiernan56]

Heaven is God’s creation. Before creation, Heaven DID NOT exist. Before creation only the Holy Trinity existed … a communion of 3 Persons all sharing and possessing the same divine nature.

As it was already presented earlier, scripture says that “God created the Heavens and the Earth.”

Heaven was created by God. In Heaven we will see the Risen Christ in human body and soul. Christ as a human being is in Heaven along with all the other Saints … they await each of us once we too have been made completely Holy - full of Love and fully human. Sin/Evil makes us less human and robs us of our humanity.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Heaven means the firmament or universe we gaze up at as you quote it. i could be right. The church does not say I’m wrong and leaves the question open - incl. my idea.

 

[jkiernan56]

Did anyone get a chance to read the Magnificat yesterday (Sunday - 15th)? In the Mass section, there is a beautiful reading by Saint Symeon the New Theologian. He was a spiritual master and monk in Constantinople in 1022. He wrote:

"God dwells in the believer and becomes for him all that he desires, or rather, more than he desires. For God who is all goodness fills the soul in which he dwells with all goodness as far as our nature is capable of receiving it, because God is infinite and cannot be contained by any created nature. I speak of those blessings that "eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have entered into the heart of man (1 Cor 2:9) - certainly not the heart of him who has not attained that state. When he stoops low to inquire into the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God, he is immediately becomes dizzy and is struck with amazement as he thinks of himself and who he is to be counted worthy to behold such things. As he looks on the greatness of God’s loving kindness, he is struck with amazement. He considers himself with all his soul to be unworthy of the vision of such goodness … he is constrained by trembling, fear, and reverence to cry “Who am I Lord, that thou shouldst reveal such mysteries to me, unworthy as I am, and hast wonderously made me not only to have a vision of such good things, but even to participate and share in them!”

I found this reading very powerful and expresses better than I ever could what true “Fear of the Lord” means. The Goodness and Love of God move us to turn AWAY from all that is not pleasing to the Lord and turns us TOWARD doing what is pleasing to Him.

Fear of hell and punishment for me at least does not do this. It does not motivate me to Love God. I completely can understand why Dameedna would want to run away from the idea of a God associated with fear having nothing to do with love.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Interesting I do believe…

For heaven is a definite place, where not only God is, and the angels now are, but where Christ is also in His sacred humanity, and Our Lady with her human body. There, too, all the blessed will dwell with their glorified bodies after the last Judgment. If heaven is a definite locality, it must accordingly be a visible, not a spiritual kingdom; for a place must in its nature be to some extent conformable to those who abide init.

Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified will live forever with Jesus in His Kingdom called Heaven. Heaven is reference to a state of eternal happiness gained after death. It is the result of being faithful in the service of GOD during one’s lifetime:

“…I shall go, and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will take you to Myself; that where I Am, you also may be.” St.John 14:3

The vastness of heaven is immeasurable for us to comprehend as the prophet Baruch exclaims:

“O Israel, how great is the house of God, and how vast is the place of His possession! It is great and hath not end, it is high and immense”

Baruch 3:24 We can readily believe this, for we have before our eyes the boundless realms of space.

Although the beauty of heaven may be incomprehensible to us in this life (1 Cor 2:9) yet we can to some extent picture them to our imagination. It would be contrary to common sense to thing that the vast heavenly kingdom would be empty and bare. If princes and rulers fill every space, and leaveno corner in their palaces or their grounds unembellished and unadorned, shall we suppose that the great King of heaven would permit His regal palace, His celestial paradise, to be lacking in magnificence and in beauty? What would there be to delight the senses of the saints if heaven were a largeempty space? We also have Christ’s words " In my Father’s house there’re many mansions" - John 14:2. Hence it may be inferred that each one of the redeemed has their own degree of glory according to the degree of merit they attained wh the jasper stone, even as crystal. The city itself was of pure gold, like unto glass, and the foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all manner of precious stones" - (Apoc. 21:11).

continued at
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/heaven.htm

Thx for that. Maybe one day the church will teach the exact meaning. I think I’m right but the answer is more complex than I say or needs to be defined better. A bit of a mystery so it’s specualtion I offer which the minority of theologians agree with, but none the less the church has not ruled it out and theologians can be wrong:thumbsup:

 

[jkiernan56]

Interesting I do believe…

For heaven is a definite place, where not only God is, and the angels now are, but where Christ is also in His sacred humanity, and Our Lady with her human body. There, too, all the blessed will dwell with their glorified bodies after the last Judgment. If heaven is a definite locality, it must accordingly be a visible, not a spiritual kingdom; for a place must in its nature be to some extent conformable to those who abide init.

Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified will live forever with Jesus in His Kingdom called Heaven. Heaven is reference to a state of eternal happiness gained after death. It is the result of being faithful in the service of GOD during one’s lifetime:

“…I shall go, and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will take you to Myself; that where I Am, you also may be.” St.John 14:3

The vastness of heaven is immeasurable for us to comprehend as the prophet Baruch exclaims:

“O Israel, how great is the house of God, and how vast is the place of His possession! It is great and hath not end, it is high and immense”

Baruch 3:24 We can readily believe this, for we have before our eyes the boundless realms of space.

Although the beauty of heaven may be incomprehensible to us in this life (1 Cor 2:9) yet we can to some extent picture them to our imagination. It would be contrary to common sense to thing that the vast heavenly kingdom would be empty and bare. If princes and rulers fill every space, and leaveno corner in their palaces or their grounds unembellished and unadorned, shall we suppose that the great King of heaven would permit His regal palace, His celestial paradise, to be lacking in magnificence and in beauty? What would there be to delight the senses of the saints if heaven were a largeempty space? We also have Christ’s words " In my Father’s house there’re many mansions" - John 14:2. Hence it may be inferred that each one of the redeemed has their own degree of glory according to the degree of merit they attained wh the jasper stone, even as crystal. The city itself was of pure gold, like unto glass, and the foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all manner of precious stones" - (Apoc. 21:11).

continued at
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/heaven.htm

Very beautiful !

I know from my own personal experience that the words of St. Ignatius are very true - “Give me only your Love and your Grace, that’s enough for me.”

Anything else in Heaven is cream

 

[WAYNE_LEYDS]

The Question Itself Is Corrupt To The Core!!!it Finds Its Origins In Our Basic Human Fault.vanity.or Maybe An Attribute Of It. Greed!!!does Love Have A Price? Thats The True Question.but All Christians Should No That Love Is To Be Selfless,to Give… Wanting Nothing In Return.

 

[jkiernan56]

The Question Itself Is Corrupt To The Core!!!it Finds Its Origins In Our Basic Human Fault.vanity.or Maybe An Attribute Of It. Greed!!!does Love Have A Price? Thats The True Question.but All Christians Should No That Love Is To Be Selfless,to Give… Wanting Nothing In Return.

Actually, speaking again from personal experience, I know the very opposite of this statement is true. I used to be in a personal prison of being unable to really love because of self hatred. I can say from absolute certainty that it was only because of an experience of God’s personal love FOR ME that I was freed from this prison. That is why I also very personally understand the words of St. John who said “We love because he first loved us.” 1 John 4:19

I know I would not be able to love unless I first experienced and RECEIVED God’s love first. It is God’s love for me that allows and enables me to love myself and others.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

The Question Itself Is Corrupt To The Core!!!it Finds Its Origins In Our Basic Human Fault.vanity.or Maybe An Attribute Of It. Greed!!!does Love Have A Price? Thats The True Question.but All Christians Should No That Love Is To Be Selfless,to Give… Wanting Nothing In Return.

Hi Wayne
It’s not a spiritual question in which of course you’re right. It’s a philosophical forum here and a search for truth. It’s just a debate and a look for meaning. We carry on about words and meaning here. That’s all. If you want to discuss spiritual matters like selflessness and selfishness etc then that is great and you can do that in the spirituality forum or to discuss the moral aspect you can also go to the moral theology forum. I hope I’ve helped here

 

[benedictus2]

Jesus never claimed he was ressurected. The disciples of his disciple wrote about a ressurection about 70 years after his death. Jesus would not be the one who was lying.

Just wanted to point that out

Jesus said he will rise on the the third day. And He did. The proof is the disciples account of being withHim after the ressurection.

 

[jkiernan56]

Jesus said he will rise on the the third day. And He did. The proof is the disciples account of being withHim after the ressurection.

The Resurrection is the CENTRAL truth and proof (empirical for those who saw, heard, and touched Christ after His death) of Christianity (at least for me).

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

**

Hi ben,

Nancy’s heart would only be in the right place if it was in the real and Blood of her Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Otherwise she is just a nice person who hasn’t found the real Christian church that Jesus founded 2,000 years ago for the salvation of sinners!

See and people say I can’t be nice! **

Hi, I wanted to ask you since your on the Catholic Faith,when did the Catholic’s print the bible? in what year? And do you know the scriptures were around way back before Christ? Also Ben is right I love the Cathoilc’s period. And I love Ben Cinette, Joe,Protestant101,Walt,Michael,Marie,alot of other’s and Yes even you.God Bless you alway’s love of Christ Nancy:thumbsup:

 

[benedictus2]

Very beautiful !

I know from my own personal experience that the words of St. Ignatius are very true - “Give me only your Love and your Grace, that’s enough for me.”

Anything else in Heaven is cream

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Hi, I wanted to ask you since your on the Catholic Faith,when did the Catholic’s print the bible? in what year? And do you know the scriptures were around way back before Christ? Also Ben is right I love the Cathoilc’s period. And I love Ben Cinette, Joe,Protestant101,Walt,Michael,Marie,alot of other’s and Yes even you.God Bless you alway’s love of Christ Nancy:thumbsup:

Hi Nancy
Your q may be best in the bible forum etc but the catholic church gave us the final version of the bible we have today- the latin vulgate in 2 councils in the 4th century. The nt was written by catholics and the bible is a catholic book if that is something you wonder.
with printing it was printed from the earliest times by quill and monks. a copy may take 8 or 20 yrs to make so they were extremely rare and only priests had them mostly. mass printing appeared just b4 the protestant reformation in the 16th century. once the reformation started, the church which ha been hesitant for fear of the impact of the bible on uneducated people who would completely misinterpret it, starting printing and selling affordable bibles under pressure from the reformation. the church was wise about not just sending out bibles because we need the church to explain what they mean. this is evident as almost every protestant and bible hristian has there own interpretation. hence the constant splitting which may end in a church for each? hope this helps.

 

[ready]

Regarding the original question posted: Yes, I would still love God, even if there were no heaven. Definitely. I am not absolutely convinced there will be a heaven or hell after I die…I do not know what will occur. I only know that out of love and respect for God (who is absolute Love and absolute Truth) I choose to let my reason be enlightened by my baptismal faith by trusting in Jesus’ love for me, the Church’s teachings on God and things eternal, and by trying to be pleasing to God through worthy reception of the sacraments and by loving Him with all my heart, mind and soul…and loving my neighbor as self.

Also, Pope Benedict XVI has referred to God the Father as “Heaven” itself. Our Father who art in Heaven is said to be Heaven itself by our Holy Father the Pope.

 

[Matariel]

Hi, I wanted to ask you since your on the Catholic Faith,when did the Catholic’s print the bible?

The Gutenburg Bible, the first book ever printed on the printing press, was a Catholic Bible.

But Catholics have always had the Bible in written form, and it was in the Synod of Rome when the Pope signed off on the canon. At this point it was ordinary Magisterium and authoritative, although it was still debateable if the Deuterocanon (Old and New Testament Deuterocanons-- this is an often overlooked fact) were of a secondary nature. St. Jerome speculated they were, but accepted their inspiration and put him in the Bible he wrote.

 

[benedictus2]

The Question Itself Is Corrupt To The Core!!!it Finds Its Origins In Our Basic Human Fault.vanity.or Maybe An Attribute Of It. Greed!!!does Love Have A Price? Thats The True Question.but All Christians Should No That Love Is To Be Selfless,to Give… Wanting Nothing In Return.

Actually, your answer make the question very valid. If I understand your answer right, it is a yes, you will love God even without the reward of heaven.

Sadly there are people who will not answer like that.It is like a quid pro quo to them; you give me heaven and I will love you.

A friend I posed this question to said that if there is no heaven he will be out for himself. Yet he is a Christian or at least claims to be.

 

[benedictus2]

I don’t know if this will help or hinder but here goes:

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3

Knowing God and His Son is to know their love -and to love them. Whatever heaven is, what makes it heavenly is the presence of God. We can receive tastes of that presence, whether powerful tastes or not so powerful, here on earth but only continuously and permanently in the next life, of course.

Hmm, a post after my own heart.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

No what I mean is, the gospels were not written by Jesus. Hence, the claims made about him, were made by other people, not Jesus.

Hello, I just wanted to say that the deciples were penning Christ every where he preached. So yes they were ordinary men but they walked with God. That would put them in a differnt category,wouldn’t it?

Love of Christ Nancy