Illegal immigrants are first 'mothers and fathers, sons and daughters,' says Archbishop Gomez

[Elizabeth502]

You are mistaken on one point. The Catholic Church, especially the religious orders, have done and do a great deal for the poor in this country and aborad, regardless of where they come from.

Actually, you are mistaken that I ever claimed otherwise. That’s not my argument. Perhaps it’s the argument of others, but not mine. What I’m saying is that the CC has shifted its emphasis, and sometimes that emphasis has led indirectly to abandoning the poverty among nationals to the poverty among immigrants, especially those here illegally.

What the bishop is asking for is equity for the poor

But the non-immigrant poor are not receiving equity; that’s entirely the point. That’s fine that the CC is sometimes addressing separate poor populations; but where no one (not religious, not secular people) is stepping up to the plate is where there is joint, simultaneous need in one location for both the immigrant and the non-immigrant poor. That is where the non-immigrant poor are being dealt injustice. There is no rationalizing of that in terms of Church teaching, Gospel, or St. Francis. It just doesn’t wash.

and what he’s counting on is Catholics, all of us, lay, religious and clergy to come to the aid of the poor, the immigrant and the national.

That’s pretty idealistic, because it’s not happening in a truly equitable two-fold way.

The national cannot be given preference over the immigrant.

Whether they “cannot” or not, immigrants are being preferred over nationals, in many localities. Grinding, shameful, abysmal, and unrelieved poverty for nationals has not been eradicated, but the unspoken assumption – in and out of the Church – is, often, that it has been eradicated, or that their poverty is somehow secondary. There’s nothing Gospel about that.

 

[Tigg]

What does the Church tell these fathers and mothers who are just trying to support their families by entering our country illegally?

We hear a lot about what our reaction to these people illegally crossing our borders should be. We hear a lot about how we should reform our immigration system to instantly change these people here illegally to legal immigrants.

But what does the Church say to these people? Does the Church encourage or discourage illegal immigration?

If you ever get an answer to this question, please let me know - I’ve been asking for quite some time. I know that our diocese is (or at least was - under our old bishop) known as a sanctuary diocese. I’ve heard firsthand accounts of religious sisters stating such. We have a moral obligation to meet the immediate and basic needs of those here illegally - in terms of food and temporary shelter, but sanctuary implies a longer term (and complicity.)

Which is really quite problematic for the church as the official language of the catechism states that those who migrate must follow the law of the host country. Of course, the catechism assumes an orderly and legal process of immigration — not the anarchic state of affairs such as we are seeing today.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If you ever get an answer to this question, please let me know - I’ve been asking for quite some time. I know that our diocese is (or at least was - under our old bishop) known as a sanctuary diocese. I’ve heard firsthand accounts of religious sisters stating such. We have a moral obligation to meet the immediate and basic needs of those here illegally - in terms of food and temporary shelter, but sanctuary implies a longer term (and complicity.)

Which is really quite problematic for the church as the official language of the catechism states that those who migrate must follow the law of the host country. Of course, the catechism assumes an orderly and legal process of immigration — not the anarchic state of affairs such as we are seeing today.

We view laws as ‘just’ or ‘unjust’. To claim that one must adhere to all laws of a ‘host’ country places other issues, such as abortion, in jeopardy.

Christ never qualified feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving shelter to the homeless, or caring for the sick, as being a ‘minimum’ of help with adjectives like ‘basic’.

 

[Blacksword]

Actually, Bro JR, the progressive political agenda of the left has worked long and hard in trying to pass another blanket amnesty. Grass roots efforts coming from the American public have so far stopped it every time. This administration, as did the previous one, also allows rampant fraud regarding immigration and green card issues. The reports are legendary and can be read on-line. They neither enforce the current laws nor reform the ones on the books, so I will agree with you wholeheartedly that not only has the state lost sight of its moral roots – it is corrupt to the core.

(And, I am aware of the good work you do - a sincere thank you for being of service to God and His people.)

Completely untrue, this administration and the previous one enforce our immigration laws in as brutal a fashion, and sadly often arbitrarily harsh a fashion, as possible. We deport record highs of persons every year. And you must not be familiar with such events as the Postville Iowa raid by our federal government. People who say these things have no idea of the obscene costs and effort that a complete shut-down of the border would involve. It would probably involve a full militarization of the entire border, and at the least would mean hiring tens of thousands more border patrol agents and bloating federal spending by hundreds of billions. I thought we were trying to SAVE money, where would the funding for such an operation come from?

 

[PaulinVA]

We view laws as ‘just’ or ‘unjust’. To claim that one must adhere to all laws of a ‘host’ country places other issues, such as abortion, in jeopardy.

Christ never qualified feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving shelter to the homeless, or caring for the sick, as being a ‘minimum’ of help with adjectives like ‘basic’.

One must adhere to the host country’s laws, of course. Abortion is not an issue - abortion is legal - we just don’t procure them.

Feeding the hungry, etc deals with the people that are helping the immigrants. The question is what is the responsibility of the immigrants themselves to follow the laws of the host country, including following it’s immigration laws.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

One must adhere to the host country’s laws, of course. Abortion is not an issue - abortion is legal - we just don’t procure them.

But, through our elected politicians, we attempt to make changes to laws. Abortion should be illegal, in my opinion, just as I believe we need a fair and just immigration reform.

I have several European friends that have become American citizens. They come from affluent families, with money. They were afforded opportunities in this country, much more than people who cannot afford the same. It’s not a ‘fair’ system.

What happened to the country, that was built by immigrants, who said, “Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free…”?

Feeding the hungry, etc deals with the people that are helping the immigrants. The question is what is the responsibility of the immigrants themselves to follow the laws of the host country, including following it’s immigration laws.

On this issue we accept our law, but on the issue of abortion we call it ‘unjust’ and work to change it? I’m sorry it seems to be a pick and choose according to secularism. Christ would not have us turn anyone away, at least that’s what I believe in my heart.

 

[PaulinVA]

Prodigal Son1, it’s a simple question.

Should immigrants follow the immigration laws of their host country? That is not an abortion question; that does not have anything to do with changing laws.

It’s a simple question. The answer is either yes or no.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prodigal Son1, it’s a simple question.

Should immigrants follow the immigration laws of their host country? That is not an abortion question; that does not have anything to do with changing laws.

It’s a simple question. The answer is either yes or no.

In my opinion, it does have to do with changing laws. We cannot change one law, based on Christian morality, and overlook other laws that prevent His teachings from being achieved, when we have the opportunity in a ‘free’ country.

What happened to the country, that was built by immigrants, who said, “Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free…”? We are a nation of ‘immigrants’, that has come to a point of people calling for the door to be shut, and in what seems to be based on a person’s economic condition. That’s why many immigrants come here, for an opportunity to better provide for their families.

 

[Tigg]

What happened to the country, that was built by immigrants, who said, “Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free…”? We are a nation of ‘immigrants’, that has come to a point of people calling for the door to be shut, and in what seems to be based on a person’s economic condition. That’s why many immigrants come here, for an opportunity to better provide for their families.

My family are immigrants (from the old Czechoslovakia) who spent several weeks on Ellis Island waiting to be processed for legal entry into the U.S. Please do not try to compare the European immigrants (per your quote above) with those who surreptiously and illegally cross over the southern border. Apples and oranges!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

My family are immigrants (from the old Czechoslovakia) who spent several weeks on Ellis Island waiting to be processed for legal entry into the U.S. Please do not try to compare the European immigrants (per your quote above) with those who surreptiously and illegally cross over the southern border. Apples and oranges!

I guess those first have a right to call for the doors to be shut…

Seriously, I didn’t distinguish and believe all have a right to ‘process’. BTW, you know we no longer utilize Ellis Island? It seems those that went through the processes then would desire the processes be made easier for others. We shouldn’t want it the same, or harder for others. That’s just my opinion.

 

[Tigg]

We view laws as ‘just’ or ‘unjust’. To claim that one must adhere to all laws of a ‘host’ country places other issues, such as abortion, in jeopardy.

Christ never qualified feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving shelter to the homeless, or caring for the sick, as being a ‘minimum’ of help with adjectives like ‘basic’.

Do you believe in personal responsibility? That our individual actions carry consequences before a Just Judge? That the ends do not justify the means per Catholic Church teaching? Just something to think about especially if our illegal “immigrants” are first, mothers & fathers, sons & daughters with a grave moral responsibility to safely care for their own families.

If I were to meet an illegal alien family (sorry, but I care nothing about political correctness) in our downtown area, huddled against a wall in a state of need, I would:

a.) Feed them and bring them in out of the cold…

b.) Offer them shelter (not in my own home for my first obligation is to protect my own family, but find a place safe for them.)

c.) Tell them to go home as America is not a safe haven for them. They are fugitives from the law, after all, placing their children in grave danger! The U. S. government is exploiting them, American citizens are hostile to them and they are placing their families and themselves in the middle of political chaos!

 

[pnewton]

My family are immigrants (from the old Czechoslovakia) who spent several weeks on Ellis Island waiting to be processed for legal entry into the U.S. Please do not try to compare the European immigrants (per your quote above) with those who surreptiously and illegally cross over the southern border. Apples and oranges!

I agree there is no comparison. Several weeks simply does not compare to several years, or possibly never. Yet I will totally support you on this. Let all that want to come here do so, as Europeans did in the past, and be processed in within weeks. Then there would be no justification for illegal immigration **and **the can start paying taxes.

 

[pnewton]

Do you believe in personal responsibility? That our individual actions carry consequences before a Just Judge? That the ends do not justify the means per Catholic Church teaching?

FYI That principle, which is not the way the Catholic Church words it, by the way, only applies to a means that is objectively always evil, like the willful murder of another. Read what the catechism says about stealing even.

CCC 2408 - There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods. This is the case in obvious and urgent necessity when the only way to provide for immediate, essential needs (food, shelter, clothing . . .) is to put at one’s disposal and use the property of others.

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art7.shtml

 

[Tigg]

Completely untrue, this administration and the previous one enforce our immigration laws in as brutal a fashion, and sadly often arbitrarily harsh a fashion, as possible. We deport record highs of persons every year. And you must not be familiar with such events as the Postville Iowa raid by our federal government. People who say these things have no idea of the obscene costs and effort that a complete shut-down of the border would involve. It would probably involve a full militarization of the entire border, and at the least would mean hiring tens of thousands more border patrol agents and bloating federal spending by hundreds of billions. I thought we were trying to SAVE money, where would the funding for such an operation come from?

Albeit, you will be able to find random stories posted on line of the brutality of law enforcement- and yes, there have been raids on work places, and deportations, nonetheless, it is a matter of Congressional record how Bush, Lindsey Graham & Co. and the Dems tried to pass amnesty about three years ago. Was it 2007? I won’t even bother with a link (I’ll only be accused of posting a biased news source…) Americans were told by their President they were xenophobes and racists - Bush’s quotes were in all the major news sources…nonetheless, the phone calls were so numerous they shut down the Senate switchboard during the day of the debate. Senator DeMint was the one who called for the measure to be dropped.

Sorry, but I have to when I hear comments that we, the World’s SuperPower, cannot close our borders! It’s not that we cannot - it is simply not the will of the powers-that-be who are in charge of the group on the Hill. To close the borders would be contrary to their agenda.

 

[PaulinVA]

I am still waiting for an answer to the question about the obligation of the immigrants themselves to follow the laws of the host country.

Archbishop Gomez is basically saying that they are justified in coming here illegally because they are fathers and mothers trying to provide a better life for their children.

Following that same logic, is it then okay, in the Church’s eyes, for me to embezzle money from my employer to pay for my kids’ college education, to give them a better life?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I am still waiting for an answer to the question about the obligation of the immigrants themselves to follow the laws of the host country.

Archbishop Gomez is basically saying that they are justified in coming here illegally because they are fathers and mothers trying to provide a better life for their children.

Following that same logic, is it then okay, in the Church’s eyes, for me to embezzle money from my employer to pay for my kids’ college education, to give them a better life?

I believe it’s a matter of whether laws are just, or unjust. Christians need to weigh the difference through what Christ taught. To me, immigration falls under feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the sick, and specifically giving shelter to the homeless. It can be argued that they have homes in their countries, however conditions are such they seek a better way.

I don’t agree with your comparison. While Christ commanded the above, He never taught us to ‘steal’. In fact, the commandments teach the opposite.

 

[PaulinVA]

I don’t agree with your comparison. While Christ commanded the above, He never taught us to ‘steal’. In fact, the commandments teach the opposite.

Yes, but these people are coming into our country and* stealing *services. They can not legally pay taxes, but are benefiting from government programs.

They can’t, in many states, legally obtain a Driver’s License so they drive without them.

Every time I ask a question about the obligations of immigrants your answer is about our obligations, not* theirs*.

Do immigrants have an obligation to obey the laws of the host country? All laws, not just those that are convenient or what they subjectively consider* just*.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yes, but these people are coming into our country and* stealing *services. They can not legally pay taxes, but are benefiting from government programs.

They can’t, in many states, legally obtain a Driver’s License so they drive without them.

Every time I ask a question about the obligations of immigrants your answer is about our obligations, not* theirs*.

Do immigrants have an obligation to obey the laws of the host country? All laws, not just those that are convenient or what they subjectively consider* just*.

There is a lot of generalization in your post. ‘They’ are not all.

I also disagree with they are ‘stealing’ services. We are discussing social programs, and while they can be taken advantage of, accepting help is not strictly defined as stealing.

The issue of taxes, unless wages are earned under a sub-contractor status, are the responsibility of the employer. Also consider, if we made immigration, or even a work status, easier to be achieved how many would gladly pay taxes?

Since you find it necessary to repeat the same question I’ll respond to it by saying, ‘yes, they should follow the laws of the host country but, the host country shouldn’t have laws specifically designed to keep immigrants out, especially based on their ability to pay, or not.’ I’ve also tried to give insight into how I see obstruction, through laws, might not be just according to what Christ taught. That point has been repeatedly overlooked.

Some will stand on the ‘law’ when it comes to immigration reform, however the same people will argue the law allowing abortion needs to be changed. Both issues affect a quality of life and both issues are addressed by God.

 

[Blacksword]

Yes, but these people are coming into our country and* stealing *services. They can not legally pay taxes, but are benefiting from government programs.

They can’t, in many states, legally obtain a Driver’s License so they drive without them.

Every time I ask a question about the obligations of immigrants your answer is about our obligations, not* theirs*.

Do immigrants have an obligation to obey the laws of the host country? All laws, not just those that are convenient or what they subjectively consider* just*.

Why do people keep saying this? What services are they stealing? They are ineligible for state benefits. And they DO pay taxes! Read what I wrote already on this.

 

[Blacksword]

My family are immigrants (from the old Czechoslovakia) who spent several weeks on Ellis Island waiting to be processed for legal entry into the U.S. Please do not try to compare the European immigrants (per your quote above) with those who surreptiously and illegally cross over the southern border. Apples and oranges!

When Ellis Island was in operation we had an effective immigration system of open borders, and practically anyone could come, which is how poor and usually uneducated people like my ancestors and, perhaps, yours as well, could enter. Please don’t compare the immigration process and actions of people under an entirely different and incredibly restrictive immigration system of today with that of a century ago. Apples and oranges!