I'm trying to answer an abortion question that my friend asked me

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Eventually, you’ll realize that’s code for “I can’t argue with you and justify my choice with logic. But I also don’t want to change my mind and admit that maybe I’m wrong. So I’m going to get mad at you and tell you to go away.”

It happens with adults, too.

Anecdote: DH is a prosecuting attorney. He just had a case where the judge was intimidated by the defense attorney, afraid of the defendent… and so he ruled in their favor, because it was easier than telling them “Sorry, you broke the law, go to jail.”

DH was floored. The court reporter was floored. The bailiffs and sheriffs and everyone were floored. Weeks have passed, and DH is still super-angry at the judge for ignoring the law, and angry at himself for agreeing to a bench trial when he should have insisted that it be a jury trial, because it’s not the first time that judge has proven himself to be weak and flawed…

Anyhow, after the trial, he goes to visit the judge to ask him to explain his reasoning. And he couldn’t. And he was exactly like your friend… “I don’t want to talk. Go find someone else to talk to. Because I don’t want to talk to you anymore.”

People don’t like having their weakness pointed out, whether it’s the weakness of character, weakness of argument, or weakness of whatever. When they have to justify an opinion or a decision or an action… they don’t like it… especially when they know the opinion/decision/action, deep down, isn’t defensible when you really look at what you’re trying to argue.
 
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Nate, it may be that you think you are not getting through to her. But I bet she is thinking hard about these questions, and wondering why she doesn’t have answers. Even if you persuaded her of any of this, she might not admit it, or even realize it herself.
 
Nahtch said:
Anyway my question is, how do I answer these arguments?
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Well, first of all, an actual conversation it a better medium that texting. You cannot have a meaningful discussion with anyone over text.

Next, I suggest you fully think through these arguments and how the child is not the same thing as “her body”. It is a separate and unique individual.

The book by Randy Alcorn, Pro Life Answers to Pro Choice Arguments is a great book because it will help you learn how to think through these logical fallacies. You can probably get it from your public library through inter-library loan. You can buy it on Amazon.

At 14, she is mostly going on emotional arguments and things she’s heard in the media. I doubt that she is actually thinking through these things. I had a student about your ages in my religious ed class and she said she was “pro choice” and believed in the “right to choose”. “Choice” sounds like such a good thing-- we should all have choices. but when we dug down into what that “choice” actually way-- killing a baby-- she completely realized that no one should have a right to choose to kill another person. I made her finish the sentence, “I should have a right to choose… to kill my baby”. Yeah, it didn’t sound so good after.

Please don’t text war on this topic. It is a serious topic that if you choose to engage in it, deserves actual dialog.
 
And even more likes 💙💙💙💙💙💙💙💙

The first answer for me is “a victim of rape deserves the very best medical, emotional, spiritual and legal care that we can give.”
 
Nahtch said:
UPDATE: now my friend is saying that it a woman is raped and can’t care for a baby, then an abortion must take place? Is this wrong? Is it right? How do I respond to that?

EDIT: ok I think her main arguement/question is, what if a women (usually who is homeless or can’t defend them selves) is raped and the egg is fertilized, and the woman will not be able to provide for the child, is abortion ok?
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No, it is still not OK to kill a child because his/her father committed a crime. It doesn’t make the crime go away. It doesn’t un-rape the woman. In fact, it commits another act of aggression and invasion into the woman’s body when she is in a vulnerable and traumatized state already. It attacks a child who is completely innocent of any crime.

If the mother is not in a position to care for the child, the loving thing to do for the child is to place the child for adoption in a home with parents who are in a position to care for the child.
 
Nahtch said:
UPDATE: now my friend is saying that it a woman is raped and can’t care for a baby, then an abortion must take place? Is this wrong? Is it right? How do I respond to that?

EDIT: ok I think her main arguement/question is, what if a women (usually who is homeless or can’t defend them selves) is raped and the egg is fertilized, and the woman will not be able to provide for the child, is abortion ok?
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I have NEVER understood the idea that a baby must be aborted when conceived in rape.

Why is it that we never hear feminists say that the rapist, instead of the baby, should be sentenced to death?
 
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phil19034 said:
Why is it that we never hear feminists say that the rapist, instead of the baby, should be sentenced to death?
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This is a very good question.

In our culture which seeks to push the limits of immorality with impunity, I note that whenever such rape cases are cited, it’s usually with the intent of removing shame, stigma, or responsibility on the part of the victim - & the child from being a constant reminder of the offense & the offender. Ending a pregnancy by killing the child means that a woman is now a mother of a deceased child - not a living one, but she is still a mother nonetheless - even if the child was conceived in this heinous fashion. The change that so many women seek to avoid in undergoing an abortion has already taken place - willingly or not.
 
The way she describes it “is my body and I do what I want to do with it” shows already she is ok with convenience abortions. She just got mad because you proved her pasted old argument about rape is an exception case not a rule.
I would not cling on to her but pray to God she comes back to talk to you because she needs you. Mood swings in a matter of a serious discussion should not be encouraged.
Do not surprise if a charitable man turns out to be cruel too. None of us is born good (Psalm 51). We learn to be good by the grace of God. The fact that she is charitable is a grace from God. If you asked her about it she would be proud in herself and use it as an argument for the strength of her character.
If you are curious just ask her - why do you feed strangers on the street but you wouldn’t feed your own baby if it was a stranger in your life? (As in an incovenience to her life plan)
 
1ke said:
Please don’t text war on this topic. It is a serious topic that if you choose to engage in it, deserves actual dialog.
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Indeed! I hadn’t realized the conversation was taking place over text. That’s not the best medium for this conversation.
 
Thanks for all the support and all the answers to the arguements. I will continue praying for her and will hope she figures out the truth.
 
In my opinion, she doesn’t want to talk to you anymore because she has run out of arguments. This is what happens with my 22-year-old daughter and myself. She is the “I-would-never-have-an-abortion-myself-but-women-should-have-the-choice” category.

It sounds like your friend has decided to listen to what popular media says and probably what her circle of girlfriends say about it. Is she your age? Still learning and still very young. As she grows and matures, events will happen in her life—good and bad—that will hopefully mature her into a woman of truth and character. Pray for her.
 
It’s a process. If nothing else, I am sure you planted a lot of seeds! 😃
 
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This. As a staunchly pro-life individual, it surprises me how little tangible support is offered to mothers who choose to keep their child.

The stock answer is “adoption” but, in many cases, that’s another unsolicited cruelty heaped on the mother’s shoulders. Women who are unexpectedly pregnant and want to raise their own children should be able to do so, with robust support from the community. If, as a church, we are truly pro-life, that means personally stepping up to the plate and providing meaningful, substantial resources to support our purported values.

I don’t see that anywheee I’ve lived, and I’ve looked hard. In my parish, the priests seem more interested in pilgrimage travel funds and art than real human lives. Support amounts to used clothing and feeding donations through age 4. (I suppose because everyone over 4 photosynthesizes and doesn’t need a home, clothing, utilities, an education, or love…?)
 
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Hi Nate
I struggled with this too, at my own Catholic school. Even one of my teachers called Roe vs. Wade the “right of the woman.” Can you believe that there is an organization called “Catholics for Choice”? As Catholics, we aren’t even supposed to support abortion! For the 1%, the child should not be punished for his father’s sins. As others have said, tow negatives do not make a positive. For the other 99%, well, bad choices have consequences. Once again, as Catholics, doing that sort of thing before marriage is not right. Basically, it is wrong to take the life from an innocent human being. From conception, the baby has 46 chromosomes, and is therefore it’s own person in its own right, a unique child, no matter what the size. Also, pointing this out may cause her to leave the Church, but if you have an abortion, you are automatically excommunicated from the Church. When it comes to birth control, remember that it ends the pregnancy and kills the baby, although it is not called abortion. Trent Horn had a excellent forum, where people called in to explain why they were pro choice. Here are the links if you want to check it out:
https://www.catholic.com/audio/cal/8596
https://www.catholic.com/audio/cal/8597
Good luck
Thanks for standing up for what you know is right.
 
Ask her if she supports the death penalty. For either the guilty or the innocent.

No? Then ask what crime the baby committed to deserve the death penalty.
 
Out here there is a Catholic maternity home. It is set up like this:

• A home for moms under 18
• A home for moms 18+
• On-site daycare
• On-site high school
• Ladies are responsible for chores around the homes
• Counseling is provided
• A transition home for moms preparing to go on their own with their child
• Medical care & food is provided
• Ladies pursuing a higher education can attend the local community college or other college if accepted
• Ladies can stay up to 2 years there with their children
• Some of the moms hold down jobs to earn money
 
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That sounds like a lovely arrangement. We have nothing of the sort in any of the large cities where I’ve lived.
 
Rachela said:
When it comes to birth control, remember that it ends the pregnancy and kills the baby, although it is not called abortion.
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This is inaccurate. Some forms of artificial birth control are abortive by definition (e.g. IUDs), some may be abortive (e.g. hormonal contraceptives), while others are definitively not abortive (e.g. condoms, diaphragms, sterilization).

A couple engaging in a non-abortive act is separating the unitive and provreative elements of sex, but not ending a human life. You can’t end a life that hasn’t been created. Now, you can argue that they reduced their potential fertility on a statistical basis, and that would be accurate, but no abortion has occurred for that couple. There is a very material difference between a life not created, and one created only to be destroyed.
 
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Your community is so blessed. I wonder how long their wait list is?
 
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