Indulgences

[Syele]

I think that part of the problem that Protestants have understanding purgatory is that they don’t believe a person can be perfect and sinless.

1 John
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Romans 3:9-10
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Psalm 14:3
They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

But not now. In heaven, but on this earth, we aren’t supposed to worry about doing good works, we’re just supposed…I never was sure what exactly we were supposed to be doing. Glorifying God? What, in practical terms, does that mean? Many people seemed to think it meant singing, praying, and swaying in a “worship” service.

Worship services are for praising and worshiping God, you glorify Him by doing good works and following His commandments.

We were taught that we shouldn’t be doing “good works,” but that Christ should do them through us. What, in practical terms, does THAT mean? Many people seemed to think it meant doing whatever you pleased (as long as it wasn’t “sinful”) and not worrying about anything, since we were “covered by Christ” anyway.

Letting Christ do things “through you” is about doing what God wants you to do, rather than what you feel like doing. The fact that many people do not do it doesn’t mean the doctrine is wrong. Is Catholicism wrong because there are cafeteria Catholics? Letting Christ live through you is surrendering YOUR will to Him completely.

I didn’t get the whole point of life in Christ. A relationship? What did THAT mean, in practical terms? For people like me, who don’t have an easy time developing HUMAN relationships, a “relationship with Christ” was really hard to comprehend and practice.

Relationship is something that is important… you do it by staying focused on Jesus, praying continuously, being able to discern God’s will so you may follow it. IF you have no relationship with Jesus, you are not saved you are just religious, following laws with no backing. here is an explaination:christinyou.net/pages/persrel.html

Like I said, the idea that we are actually supposed to be “becoming perfect” here on this earth was totally, completely foreign to me as a Protestant. I didn’t think it was possible. Only Jesus was perfect.

Yes, being completely perfect is impossible (I have already sinned in the past haven’t you?) but it IS possible to become righteous in God in the future.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Christ thought, and taught, you could be perfect.

Matthew 19

21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Perfect in this life? Doubtful.

Except for Mary, John the Baptist, and his parents.

Perfect when we enter heaven? Every single person.

But this thread is not about Purgatory…

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Cat]

Syele, you say that a person who does not have a relationship with Jesus is not saved.

In other words, salvation DOES depend on us, not merely God’s grace. After all, a “relationship” implies TWO people, not just one person doing all the work. Christ’s finished work on the cross wasn’t enough to save us. We need to have a “relationship,” which is something that we DO. A work.

No, I’m not buying it, Syele, and I didn’t buy it as an evangelical Protestant. I believe in salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, not in salvation through a “relationship.”

How do you know that someone has a “relationship” with Jesus? You said that a “relationship” consists of staying focused on Him, praying continuously, discerning His will. I firmly believe that in their heart of hearts, most Protestant would admit that they DON’T stay focused on Christ, that they DON’T pray continuously, and that they often DON’T discern His will.

So are these Protestants not really saved because their “relationship” with Jesus is different that your relationship with Jesus?

Some couples are quite physically affectionate, calling each other pet names in public, holding hands, and even kissing in public. Others are very reserved, speaking little and not touching in public. Would you say that one couple has a “relationship” while the other doesn’t?

I hope not, because “relationship” are different for everyone. I say that a “relationship” with Jesus is not the Biblical standard of salvation, but only a result of our salvation, and that it looks different for everyone, and therefore, isn’t a reliable measure of whether or not a person is “saved.”

BTW, since becoming Catholic, I have grown closer to Jesus than I ever did as an evangelical Protestant. In the Catholic Church, I’ve found that the emphasis is on JESUS, while in the evangelical church, the emphasis was on MY PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS, or…me, not Jesus. The Catholic Church truly emphasizes John 3:30–HE must increase, I must decrease.

 

[guanophore]

What you say seems to make sense, thank you for trying to lay it out. But what you say seems to downplay what others have said about doing something paying a price to erase the sin.

I thought we die and because we have accepted Christs sacrifice and acknowledged Him as our Lord and Saviour, and have tried to live our lives as He taught us to. Upon our death when we are looked upon by God He sees Jesus, so we are saved by His Grace. So its more than white robes, its covered in the Blood of Christ, so sin does not show.

There is still a idea that a person can buy or do something in purgatory then enter Heaven. Which simply doenst work because why bother here on earth just do what you want and make up later.

I think you are right Kitty Chan, that Christ’s death on the cross is all sufficient, and that when we go to judgement, we are “in Christ”. However, since being saved does not make us sinless, there are still things in our lives that separate us from Him. Since nothing unclean can enter into His presence, any sins that separate us from Him must be purged. We are all people in process of becoming saints.

 

[RNRobert]

I think you are right Kitty Chan, that Christ’s death on the cross is all sufficient, and that when we go to judgement, we are “in Christ”. However, since being saved does not make us sinless, there are still things in our lives that separate us from Him. Since nothing unclean can enter into His presence, any sins that separate us from Him must be purged. We are all people in process of becoming saints.

I agree. Many people seem to think that the doctrines of purgatory and indulgences “negate the finished work of Christ on the Cross.” Christ’s death was sufficient, but how is it applied in our life? I believe it was Luther who used the term “snow covered dunghills,” that is, Christ’s blood covers us so that God sees us as righteous even though we are the same selfish, sinful people. But our salvation and justification is more than some legal fiction. We are required to become holy- “Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect” (Matt 5:48). We must become holy and let Christ work in our life. But how often do we resist his grace? We must decrease so that Christ can increase.

 

[guanophore]

Purgatory is where all remains of sin on your soul are totally purged, annihilated - they no longer exist.

Why would anyone wish to believe they can bring their sins into heaven by having them covered over. It seems rather a selfish, sneaky way - heaven will have perfect saints like the Apostles and Prophets who have no sin in them, then over in this corner of heaven is someone who was unwilling to give up their old sins and they just try to cover them over instead.
Can’t He see into your soul. Does’nt He know every part of your being. How are you going to hide sin from Him - and why cover it over?

If Jesus does not take away our sins (instead of “covering over” as you say) then why, during Mass, is it said that He takes them away? If they are not taken away, then are we not still in our sins? Where does it say that they are “covered up”?

Why do anything here on earth?

I can’t imagine! If our sins are not burned up when we are baptized and go to confession, then it seems to me that we are still dead in our sins, and anything we do here on earth will not change that.

If you are perfect here on earth at the time of your death, you will go straight to heaven.
If you are somwhat less than perfect then that process of becoming perfect is continued and completed after death. Then you enter heaven.
If you don’t want to be perfect at all in life, you won’t have your ‘will’ after death to choose to change that.

Does the Catholic Church really teach that we lose our free will at death?! I wonder how all the saints and angels worship, without a will?

Purgatory is that place or state where those who *are *going to heaven and are less than perfect must pay every last farthing of their dues before the jailer releases them.

Then what was the point of Jesus paying our debt on the cross?

If that state or place was just on earth, then earth would be a perfect place, everyone would be in jail repaying their debts and there would be no sin or violence or crime. But earth is not like that.

I think Jesus was talking about a spiritual jail, not a temporal one.

The vast majority of people will die in a less than perfect state. And justice, the jailer, must extract what is due from those in purgatory before they will be released.

One wonders why Jesus had to die on the cross? I see there is a thread on that, I will go there!

 

[Syele]

Syele, you say that a person who does not have a relationship with Jesus is not saved.

In other words, salvation DOES depend on us, not merely God’s grace. After all, a “relationship” implies TWO people, not just one person doing all the work. Christ’s finished work on the cross wasn’t enough to save us. We need to have a “relationship,” which is something that we DO. A work.

When did EVER say it didn’t depend on us??

No, I’m not buying it, Syele, and I didn’t buy it as an evangelical Protestant. I believe in salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, not in salvation through a “relationship.”

you said at the end of this post you are “closer to Jesus Christ” what is that, if not a relationship?

How do you know that someone has a “relationship” with Jesus? You said that a “relationship” consists of staying focused on Him, praying continuously, discerning His will. I firmly believe that in their heart of hearts, most Protestant would admit that they DON’T stay focused on Christ, that they DON’T pray continuously, and that they often DON’T discern His will.

It’s not for me to say WHO is or isn’t saved, I’ll leave that to God, thanks.

So are these Protestants not really saved because their “relationship” with Jesus is different that your relationship with Jesus?

I said they had to have one, not what type. If the goal is to follow God’s commands ONLY as a list of rules, that isn’t a relationship at all.

Some couples are quite physically affectionate, calling each other pet names in public, holding hands, and even kissing in public. Others are very reserved, speaking little and not touching in public. Would you say that one couple has a “relationship” while the other doesn’t?

Again, not my place to say who has a relationship with whom… Weather it’s public or not has nothing to do with anything. But a marriage with no relationship at all is doomed to failure.

I hope not, because “relationship” are different for everyone. I say that a “relationship” with Jesus is not the Biblical standard of salvation, but only a result of our salvation, and that it looks different for everyone, and therefore, isn’t a reliable measure of whether or not a person is “saved.”

Mathew 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

“I never knew you” speaks of a relationship.

BTW, since becoming Catholic, I have grown closer to Jesus than I ever did as an evangelical Protestant. In the Catholic Church, I’ve found that the emphasis is on JESUS, while in the evangelical church, the emphasis was on MY PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS, or…me, not Jesus. The Catholic Church truly emphasizes John 3:30–HE must increase, I must decrease.

Sounds to me like you do have a relationship with Jesus, and it’s personal too. You appear to misunderstand the phrase “personal relationship”.

 

[Cat]

Syele, where does the phrase “personal relationship with Jesus” appear in the Bible?

 

[Syele]

Syele, where does the phrase “personal relationship with Jesus” appear in the Bible?

Where does the word Trinity appear in the Bible?

And what would either question have to do with the topic?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Where does the word Trinity appear in the Bible?

And what would either question have to do with the topic?

Which concept is support more implicitly in scripture?

The idea of the Trinity?

Or the idea that each believer must have a “personal relationship” with Jesus?

Perhaps you could begin by defining what a “personal relationship” means based upon the verses that support the doctrine.

Thanks.

 

[Syele]

Which concept is support more implicitly in scripture?

The idea of the Trinity?

Or the idea that each believer must have a “personal relationship” with Jesus?

Perhaps you could begin by defining what a “personal relationship” means based upon the verses that support the doctrine.

Thanks.

I still think this is WAY off-topic, but I will humor you for a moment, assuming you have some point

from dictionary.com:
Personal:
6.done, carried out, held, etc., in person: a personal interview.

Relationship:
3. A particular type of connection existing between people related to or having dealings with each other: has a close relationship with his siblings.

there are other definitions of personal and relationship, but these are the ones referred to. I’m talking about the difference between knowing *about *Jesus and knowing Him. I can read about George Washington, or Jim Elliot and know tons of info about them. It’s not the same as KNOWING George Washington or Jim Elliot.

Here are Biblical references that show we are supposed to know God, not just know about Him and we are to let Jesus live through us (bold mine):
1 John 4 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
John 14 15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." 22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

1 Cor 6
5Do you not know that your bodies are **members of Christ himself? **
…
19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price.

---

So what we are saying is “know Jesus, not just about Him” and" allow the Holy Spirit to live in you and through you". No sane pastor preaches that a BAD relationship with Jesus is acceptable to be saved. They mean a good one. The Scriptures give TONS of info on how to have that relationship… but you asked only what a “personal relationship” is, not how to have a good one, so I’ll stop here.

 

[I_Leatherman]

If Jesus does not take away our sins (instead of “covering over” as you say) then why, during Mass, is it said that He takes them away? If they are not taken away, then are we not still in our sins? Where does it say that they are “covered up”?

I was responding to this.
Kitty Chan:

So its more than white robes, its covered in the Blood of Christ, so sin does not show.

Its some protestant theology, I think, that your sins are not removed but just covered over before entering heaven.
Its Catholic theology, I think, that sins are anihilated at confession and in purgatory. Any remaining venial sin or temporal punishment due to sin is paid in purgatory, so that the soul entering heaven is pure and perfect through and through.

guanophore:

I can’t imagine! If our sins are not burned up when we are baptized and go to confession, then it seems to me that we are still dead in our sins, and anything we do here on earth will not change that.

above

guanophore:

Does the Catholic Church really teach that we lose our free will at death?! I wonder how all the saints and angels worship, without a will?

In a sense. Insofar as you are fixed at death in your final state, which you have chosen freely. Like the angels were created, chose, and were judged in a moment.
If you choose heaven then your will and His will are one, like His will and His Fathers will are one.

guanophore:

Then what was the point of Jesus paying our debt on the cross?

His death opened the possibility of heaven, for us. Confession removes the guilt of sin, and destroys it totally. But there still remains the damage done to the body of Christ by your sin - though now forgiven. Temporal punishment is like your opportunity to repair the damage you have done through your own free will.

guanophore:

I think Jesus was talking about a spiritual jail, not a temporal one.

So do I. Purgatory is a spiritual state. Since you have to die to get there you are no longer in a temporal place. But perhaps your soul can experience something like time there. But the significant thing is, I think, that there is a jailer, there is a debt to be repaid, and there is a final release once every last farthing is paid.

guanophore:

One wonders why Jesus had to die on the cross? I see there is a thread on that, I will go there!

Bon Voyage…

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Purgatory is where all remains of sin on your soul are totally purged, annihilated - they no longer exist.

Why would anyone wish to believe they can bring their sins into heaven by having them covered over. It seems rather a selfish, sneaky way - heaven will have perfect saints like the Apostles and Prophets who have no sin in them, then over in this corner of heaven is someone who was unwilling to give up their old sins and they just try to cover them over instead.
Can’t He see into your soul. Does’nt He know every part of your being. How are you going to hide sin from Him - and why cover it over?

When you die to your old self and become new creation in Christ, by identifying with Him and what He did on the cross, He covers your sins, not you. I cant cover them, Christ does. He perfects me, I dont. by the time He decides its over He will have achieved what He needed me to do or be. I enter His pressence spotless because of Him there is nothing I can do other than accept the gift graciously. Then try to live my life as pleasing to Him as I can.

If I had more chances to clear up any sins after I die then why live my life here any better? I can just keep trying later when Im dead. Narrow is the road its not easy and He didnt promise us a cake walk, He did say His yoke was easy. I dont know about this purgetory like I said I will have to get home and read up those letters. At this point purgatory doesnt make sense, especially if one can make up later. We cannot make up anything just accept His sacrifice then respond to it by giving our lives to Him.

 

[I_Leatherman]

I feel like I’ve answered your post before. So I’ll not bother repeating.

Instead I’ll ask two things;
When you read your bible do you get any sort of blessing from God or any thing like that, or is it completely neutral like reading a novel or whatever.
and
What, exactly, does covering sins mean, what are the mechanics of it?

 

[Syele]

What, exactly, does covering sins mean, what are the mechanics of it?

I know lots of Catholics say Protestants believe something Luther supposedly said about “covering sins” but I was taught covering means like paying for.

If I go to a restaurant and someone pays my bill, the waitress might say, “It’s already covered.” She doesn’t mean that the restaurant decided I don’t have to pay… she means someone else payed it.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

When you die to your old self and become new creation in Christ, by identifying with Him and what He did on the cross, He covers your sins, not you. I cant cover them, Christ does. He perfects me, I dont. by the time He decides its over He will have achieved what He needed me to do or be. I enter His pressence spotless because of Him there is nothing I can do other than accept the gift graciously. Then try to live my life as pleasing to Him as I can.

If I had more chances to clear up any sins after I die then why live my life here any better? I can just keep trying later when Im dead. Narrow is the road its not easy and He didnt promise us a cake walk, He did say His yoke was easy. I dont know about this purgetory like I said I will have to get home and read up those letters. At this point purgatory doesnt make sense, especially if one can make up later. We cannot make up anything just accept His sacrifice then respond to it by giving our lives to Him.

Hi,
That was beautifully said.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I know lots of Catholics say Protestants believe something Luther supposedly said about “covering sins” but I was taught covering means like paying for.

If I go to a restaurant and someone pays my bill, the waitress might say, “It’s already covered.” She doesn’t mean that the restaurant decided I don’t have to pay… she means someone else payed it.

Hi,

What a great analogy:thumbsup:

 

[I_Leatherman]

I know lots of Catholics say Protestants believe something Luther supposedly said about “covering sins” but I was taught covering means like paying for.

If I go to a restaurant and someone pays my bill, the waitress might say, “It’s already covered.” She doesn’t mean that the restaurant decided I don’t have to pay… she means someone else payed it.

ok… but Kitty had a problem with the idea that sins are removed.
How is that different to sins being paid for. Where are the sins when they are paid for, and when exactly are they paid for?
Thanks.

 

[Cat]

Syele, I don’t mean to sound like a nag here.

But remember, I was evangelical Protestant for over 40 years. I know all about “personal relationships with Jesus Christ.”

The Bible implied that we will develop a “relationship” or “know Christ” WHEN we become Christians. The Bible doesn’t teach that the relationship with Jesus is what makes us a Christian.

That’s what my issue is. I think it is wrong and dangerous for Protestants to teach that it’s the relationship with Jesus that saves us.

As I said in other posts, everyone’s relationship with Jesus is different. I’ve seen this happen over and over again in Protestant churches. Someone comes along who seems to be constantly “in touch” with Jesus, always praying to Him throughout the day, singing, swaying and raising their hands during worship times, saying “Praise You, Lord!” all the time, etc. Ebullient. Gushing. Overflowing with emotion.

And other people in the church get the idea that they really don’t “know” Jesus at all, and they get discouraged and begin to doubt their salvation. Some begin to “fake it,” pretend that their relationship with Jesus is as orgasmic as the other person’s.

The problem is that you can’t keep faking it. If you pursue a fake, emotional high instead of Jesus, you eventually get to a place where you have to admit that you don’t know Him at all. That’s when you go forward and ask Jesus to be your personal Savior AGAIN. And then the cycle begins again.

I’ve definitely exaggerated my description of the “Super Christian” above. But it could be a different manifestation of a “relationship.” Some people have a very intellectual relationship with Jesus. They study the Bible and the Holy Spirit reveals the truth, and everyone else gapes at them and says, “Jesus never talks to me like that. I must not have a real relationship with Him.”

Some people have no trouble spending two or three hours a day in private prayer with Jesus, and everyone else wonders, “What’s wrong with me, that I can’t stay awake in prayer for 5 minutes!”

I’ve seen this, Syele! I’ve seen it for 40 years. Comparisons of “relationships” resulting in losing faith.

It’s all so wrong. If you read the verse, Jesus said, “Depart from me, I never knew you.” He doesn’t say, “Depart from me, you never knew Me.”

It’s not the relationship that saves. The relationship is the result of being saved, and it is different for everyone. Many people will have no perception of a relationship, and they simply have to have faith and trust that Jesus will do what He promised to do, even if they don’t feel a thing. IMO, these people are the ones who will have the highest placest in heaven, because they didn’t have constant spiritual orgasms.

BTW, have you ever heard of the Light of the World retreats? These are Catholic retreats that teach Catholics (and many Protestants) how to develop their “personal relationship with Jesus.” I know many Catholics who have attended, and they loved the retreats. Many found them to be life-changing. My point is that the Catholic Church DOES teach people to have a personal relationship with Jesus. But they also teach the Biblical way to become a Christian.

What does this have to do with the topic? Everything, IMO. If someone believes that all they need is a “relationship” with Jesus, then sin doesn’t matter. Like I was told in one Bible study, it’s a sin to think about our sin; instead, we should concentrate entirely on the Lord Jesus and forget all about ourselves. Things like Purgatory and Indulgences are not necessary because the LORD will do it all, as long as we have a “relationship” with Him.

Do you see that this isn’t Biblical at all?