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- Status
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Javl
Guest
A good place to start is here: sda2rc.com/.
It is of note that SDA’s are Christians and not a cult as some purport. But, they are millenialists and Sabattarians, and believe in soul sleep and that Jesus was originally the archangel Michael, all of which is denied by mainline Churches. The SDA’s also single out the Catholic Church for some false and vicious attacks ( I believe that this is their way of trying to legitimize their “raison d’etre” ).
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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greggy53
Guest
That would depend on what “history” you choose to accept as true , and which you choose to reject as false. If you reject the recognized historical evidence of the existence of the Church in the early centuries then you are free to make up another. The Catholic Church established the “Bible” as we all know it today in the year 387 AD. Any knowledge you may have of Greek or Hebrew is irrelevant to that historical fact.
And just how does the Bible interpret itself? Of course It cannot interpret itself because it is not alive, it is not a sentient human. Indeed the Bible does not even tell us which books belong in the Bible. Sentient human beings must not only read and decide what the words (that were also written by humans) mean, but also which writings are divinely inspired and belong in the scriptures. Yes we rely on the holy Spirit to do this. The Holy Spirit has given us all the true interpretation of the scriptures. He would not tell one person what a scripture means and then tell another something different would he? No, of course not because that would mean confusion and God is not the author of confusion. However, since the 15th century we have just that scenario, people deciding for themselves what scriptures mean and now there are more than 10,000 Protestant denominations all claiming that their interpretation of God’s word is the right one.
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SteveVH
Guest
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RonTheNewJew
Guest
I looked up, online, the Seventh-day Adventist Church’s basic beliefs and found that their bed-rock beliefs as far as what Catholics call Christianity, are definintely in line with the bed-rock beliefs of mainstream Protestantism. So, therefore, as a Messianic Jewish Protestant, I think it is necessary to understand the differences between Protestants and Catholics as far as basic doctrines are concerned.
That the earthly priesthood is not on earth any longer. The risen Christ is now the High Priest in His intecessory role before God the Father, in heaven. That we, through the Holy Spirit, given at Shavuot (Pentecost), pray to Jesus, and do not have a worthy earthly anyone else to pray to Him through.
That, because the above is, we believe, true, we become, as was God’s plan in the time before Jesus was born, lived the Law of Moses (the Law He gave to Moses) perfectly, we become a kingdom of priests, an holy nation through Christ our High Priest. This is sort of like the Baptist “priesthood of the believer.”
That we, when we become followers of Jesus (Yeshua, His Hebrew name), we become followers of God’s only given Law, the Torah as written by Moses, except the Ten Commandments, which are like Ten Headlines, each with a supporting segment of laws and ordinances, and statutes and judgements as found written in the Torah by Moses. We do not sacrifice animals as propitiation for our sins. Jesus was the Lamb of God. He is today.
We believe that the Shabbat, (Sabbaton, in Greek), and all the other Ten Commandments were lived perfectly by Jesus, who then gave freely of His innocent life so that, if we accept not only His sacrifice once and for all people in all ages, can now do what He once gave to the people He was later born into and became “of Abraham’s seed,” to follow His Laws, His Statutes and His Judgements, “and do them” (Ezekiel 36, vs. 26 and 27) We believe that this is “the Gospel.” Jesus offers us His example of life, and the religion that He gave to Moses, but minus the animal sacrifices, the priesthood and Temple, which were all transferred to heaven when He arose and ascended to His Father in heaven.
We believe that when Jesus said "This is My blood of the New Covenant, it was the Covenant in Exodus 34 to which He referred. There was no other “New” covenant when He spoke those words to His disciples during the Last Seder celebration (It celebrates the entire Plan of Salvation from start to finish.)
We differ with Protestants in general, including Seventh-day Adventists, where Coloseans 2, vs. 13 through 17 is concerned. Paul, while at Colosae, tried to give encouragement to his recent converts to Judeo-Christianity, by telling them that the “chierographonus dogmas” (the Greek words used in the text) which means "the handwriting of charges against us), were what Paul actually said were nailed to the cross on which Jesus died. Not the Law, itself. They all think that parts of the moral law, as contained in the Torah, were done away with. That is not true.
We believe that Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount was where Jesus expounded and expanded the most beautiful and positive aspects of the Law He, in His preincarnate state, gave and spoke to Moses at the mountain in Horeb (Saudi Arabia, today), apply today. He simply magnified the same Law He never broke, nor wanted any of His followers to break. In effect, when we become followers of Messiah, we also become followers of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and Moses. We effectively then, are grafted into the Olive Tree, Y’Israel. No changes in His Law. Just humble changes in us because we love Jesus and want to live with Him forever.
The Shabbat, and all the other monthly new moons and annual Feasts, are all together covered under the Fourth Commandment. The unchanging God said “I will not change what hath come forth from My lips.” Each “feast,” has with it a particular part, or theme, from God’s Plan of Salvation. These themes are supposed to be the main content of what is studied each Shabbat.
Paul, in Coloseans 2, vs. 17, after listing the meat, drink, new moons, feast days and the Sabbaton (always means the seventh-day Shabbat), moves into the prophetic future by saying, “which are shadows of things to come.” If they remain “shadows of things to come,” then they remain, exactly as God dictated them to Moses, not as men later thought they could change to other days and times. They are types. That means that they, in order to be brought to and end, must meet their anti-types. That has yet to happen.
The bitter herbs of the Christian Seder, refer to the coming time of trouble that will envelope the globe with persecution of those who follow God’s commandments, laws, statutes and judgements. We all still need justification and sanctification because we all are sinners and need to pray to Jesus through the Holy Spirit which He left when it descended to earth and to the disciples who then became His Apostles.
Shalom alechem,
Ron
That the earthly priesthood is not on earth any longer. The risen Christ is now the High Priest in His intecessory role before God the Father, in heaven. That we, through the Holy Spirit, given at Shavuot (Pentecost), pray to Jesus, and do not have a worthy earthly anyone else to pray to Him through.
That, because the above is, we believe, true, we become, as was God’s plan in the time before Jesus was born, lived the Law of Moses (the Law He gave to Moses) perfectly, we become a kingdom of priests, an holy nation through Christ our High Priest. This is sort of like the Baptist “priesthood of the believer.”
That we, when we become followers of Jesus (Yeshua, His Hebrew name), we become followers of God’s only given Law, the Torah as written by Moses, except the Ten Commandments, which are like Ten Headlines, each with a supporting segment of laws and ordinances, and statutes and judgements as found written in the Torah by Moses. We do not sacrifice animals as propitiation for our sins. Jesus was the Lamb of God. He is today.
We believe that the Shabbat, (Sabbaton, in Greek), and all the other Ten Commandments were lived perfectly by Jesus, who then gave freely of His innocent life so that, if we accept not only His sacrifice once and for all people in all ages, can now do what He once gave to the people He was later born into and became “of Abraham’s seed,” to follow His Laws, His Statutes and His Judgements, “and do them” (Ezekiel 36, vs. 26 and 27) We believe that this is “the Gospel.” Jesus offers us His example of life, and the religion that He gave to Moses, but minus the animal sacrifices, the priesthood and Temple, which were all transferred to heaven when He arose and ascended to His Father in heaven.
We believe that when Jesus said "This is My blood of the New Covenant, it was the Covenant in Exodus 34 to which He referred. There was no other “New” covenant when He spoke those words to His disciples during the Last Seder celebration (It celebrates the entire Plan of Salvation from start to finish.)
We differ with Protestants in general, including Seventh-day Adventists, where Coloseans 2, vs. 13 through 17 is concerned. Paul, while at Colosae, tried to give encouragement to his recent converts to Judeo-Christianity, by telling them that the “chierographonus dogmas” (the Greek words used in the text) which means "the handwriting of charges against us), were what Paul actually said were nailed to the cross on which Jesus died. Not the Law, itself. They all think that parts of the moral law, as contained in the Torah, were done away with. That is not true.
We believe that Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount was where Jesus expounded and expanded the most beautiful and positive aspects of the Law He, in His preincarnate state, gave and spoke to Moses at the mountain in Horeb (Saudi Arabia, today), apply today. He simply magnified the same Law He never broke, nor wanted any of His followers to break. In effect, when we become followers of Messiah, we also become followers of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and Moses. We effectively then, are grafted into the Olive Tree, Y’Israel. No changes in His Law. Just humble changes in us because we love Jesus and want to live with Him forever.
The Shabbat, and all the other monthly new moons and annual Feasts, are all together covered under the Fourth Commandment. The unchanging God said “I will not change what hath come forth from My lips.” Each “feast,” has with it a particular part, or theme, from God’s Plan of Salvation. These themes are supposed to be the main content of what is studied each Shabbat.
Paul, in Coloseans 2, vs. 17, after listing the meat, drink, new moons, feast days and the Sabbaton (always means the seventh-day Shabbat), moves into the prophetic future by saying, “which are shadows of things to come.” If they remain “shadows of things to come,” then they remain, exactly as God dictated them to Moses, not as men later thought they could change to other days and times. They are types. That means that they, in order to be brought to and end, must meet their anti-types. That has yet to happen.
The bitter herbs of the Christian Seder, refer to the coming time of trouble that will envelope the globe with persecution of those who follow God’s commandments, laws, statutes and judgements. We all still need justification and sanctification because we all are sinners and need to pray to Jesus through the Holy Spirit which He left when it descended to earth and to the disciples who then became His Apostles.
Shalom alechem,
Ron
S
SteveVH
Guest
Not quite sure what to do with the information you provided. I would love to discuss some of your beliefs but maybe that should be done on another thread. The only defender of SDA on this thread has seemed to have disappeared. He stated some very concrete beliefs but doesn’t seem to want to defend them when questioned. Are you trying to show similarities in your beliefs? I’m a little confused.
R
RonTheNewJew
Guest
I am trying to show that Protestants in general, with variations among them, all have basic tenets of belief which make them quite different in approach to Christian beliefs than are held by the Catholic Church. Seventh-day Adventists, as I understand their beliefs, are rather traditional Protestants. A kind of amalgamation of beliefs taken from the other mainstream Protestant belief systems.
I think the Adventists look at Christianity as a continuum of those parts of the religion that God gave to His first "chosen people, which address the sinful condition of man, and God’s moral, unchanging Law as given to Moses.
As far as what some Adventists, and I might add, many others, have said about the Catholic Church and it’s beliefs, I noticed in the past few years or so, the Catholic Church has made some very unfriendly statements about the other denominations of Christianity. It has done so in much the same way, and for very similarly stated reasons, as do the other, mostly Protestant denominations about the Catholic Church. Tit for Tat, is what I call it.
The Catholic Church has stated that the Protestant churches are “not true churches” because only the Catholic Church claims a lineage to Peter, etc. But, Peter was not anything but a rather proud sort of Torah-observant Jew. He practiced Judaism, but with Jesus at it’s center. No animal sacrifices, priesthood or Temple. After AD 70, the Temple was no more. But, Jesus, during His earthly lifetime, practiced the same religion, but away from Jerusalem and the Temple. He was expanding Judaism to the whole rest of the world by keeping and doing the religion He gave Moses away from Jerusalem. He did what the selfish priests and rabbi’s refused to do.
As a now Christian Jew, I sometimes look at Catholicism, and most of the other Protestant Churches as little children who want the benefits of those who would "become of Abraham’s seed, but without humble obedience to the original Laws statutues and judgements given by the very finger and voice of God, Himself. Faith in Jesus’ sacrifice and promises as contained in the Plan of Salvation (described in the steps of the Seder celebration for both past and future), died the innocent death so that we might be so moved in our hearts of flesh that we would want to keep it.
The annual feasts of the Lord require, as part of each theme, sharing, caring and love. The first chosen people often failed to see Jesus’ infusion of love into the Shabbat and all the other new moons and feasts. Jesus pointed them, and us today, back to the actual meaning of God’s only Law. Jesus is our only example of obedience to His everlasting Covenant, found in Exodus 34.
I guess what I’m saying here is that, yes, I think the SDA’s have most of the basics correctly in place. But, they and the Catholic Church, and the Protestant Churches need to get back to the Judaic religion as practiced by Jesus at Capernaum. He said to “do and teach all things whatsoever I have commanded you.”
The religion He taught them was never originated by the ethnic Jews. Though they often thought they could not sin because they were “the chosen people of God,” they, in fact, were deeply sinful and selfish. Jesus, the true Jew, came not to change any aspect of the moral law of civil and religious/spiritual values spelled out at Sinai. He came to draw men to that Law of Love, by His life and sacrifice.
I think the Adventists look at Christianity as a continuum of those parts of the religion that God gave to His first "chosen people, which address the sinful condition of man, and God’s moral, unchanging Law as given to Moses.
As far as what some Adventists, and I might add, many others, have said about the Catholic Church and it’s beliefs, I noticed in the past few years or so, the Catholic Church has made some very unfriendly statements about the other denominations of Christianity. It has done so in much the same way, and for very similarly stated reasons, as do the other, mostly Protestant denominations about the Catholic Church. Tit for Tat, is what I call it.
The Catholic Church has stated that the Protestant churches are “not true churches” because only the Catholic Church claims a lineage to Peter, etc. But, Peter was not anything but a rather proud sort of Torah-observant Jew. He practiced Judaism, but with Jesus at it’s center. No animal sacrifices, priesthood or Temple. After AD 70, the Temple was no more. But, Jesus, during His earthly lifetime, practiced the same religion, but away from Jerusalem and the Temple. He was expanding Judaism to the whole rest of the world by keeping and doing the religion He gave Moses away from Jerusalem. He did what the selfish priests and rabbi’s refused to do.
As a now Christian Jew, I sometimes look at Catholicism, and most of the other Protestant Churches as little children who want the benefits of those who would "become of Abraham’s seed, but without humble obedience to the original Laws statutues and judgements given by the very finger and voice of God, Himself. Faith in Jesus’ sacrifice and promises as contained in the Plan of Salvation (described in the steps of the Seder celebration for both past and future), died the innocent death so that we might be so moved in our hearts of flesh that we would want to keep it.
The annual feasts of the Lord require, as part of each theme, sharing, caring and love. The first chosen people often failed to see Jesus’ infusion of love into the Shabbat and all the other new moons and feasts. Jesus pointed them, and us today, back to the actual meaning of God’s only Law. Jesus is our only example of obedience to His everlasting Covenant, found in Exodus 34.
I guess what I’m saying here is that, yes, I think the SDA’s have most of the basics correctly in place. But, they and the Catholic Church, and the Protestant Churches need to get back to the Judaic religion as practiced by Jesus at Capernaum. He said to “do and teach all things whatsoever I have commanded you.”
The religion He taught them was never originated by the ethnic Jews. Though they often thought they could not sin because they were “the chosen people of God,” they, in fact, were deeply sinful and selfish. Jesus, the true Jew, came not to change any aspect of the moral law of civil and religious/spiritual values spelled out at Sinai. He came to draw men to that Law of Love, by His life and sacrifice.
G
greggy53
Guest
What makes you think the priesthood is not on earth any longer?. Jesus did establish a Chrurch before he ascended into Heaven. He gave that Church a leader and authority here on earth and in Heaven. You Protestants make up such things in order to ignore or deny what scripture tells us plainly.
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Protestant101
Guest
Those “differences” do not need to mean that the Bible cannot interpret itself. Can you state even one doctrine that a Catholic Pope has been able to “interpret” better than the Bible itself? What you say does not make sense to me right now. A fallible man, interpreting the infallible Word. Of course, followers of this topic need to keep in mind that when Catholics say the word “Bible” they mean something much different than do Protestants, when they say “Bible.”
R
RonTheNewJew
Guest
It seems to me that the Catholic Church has some major historical misunderstandings:
The Roman Catholic Church did not “preserve” the Bible. It did not formulate the Bible.
God did not set the human Church with all “authority in Heaven and on earth.” Jesus, the Messiah (Ha Maschiach) set up His Church, and He alone is it’s Head. He is God the Son, just as He was when He spoke the Law to Moses and wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger on two tables of stone.
The first Christians were, as I said earlier, Torah-observant Jews. They did not call themselves “catholic” in any sense of that word. It was these Torah-observant Jews who “preserved” the words and books of the Bible. For the first 50 years after Pentecost, the non-ethnic converts to Judeo-Christianity were a minority, and worshipped in the synagogues with the Torah-observant, and some rabbinical Jews. They kept the same days and many of the same ways as did the Torah-observant Jews. They observed the weekly Shabbat (seventh-day of the week), plus all of the other sabbaths and annual feast days, but without animal sacrifices or Temple services with the priesthood. They kept Christ front and center in their worship services.
The latin word, “catholic” began to be used in some circles some 200 years after Christ’s ascension and Pentecost (or Shavuot, as it had always been called in Hebrew). In 135 AD the Roman Empire began heavily persecuting Jews who had rebelled against Roman rule in the Bar Kochba rebellion of 132-135 AD. Because the Judeo-Christians observed all things that Christ, who was a blood-Jew, had commanded them, the Christians were persecuted along with the Jews because the Romans could not tell them apart based on days and ways of observance.
That is when the Christians began to look for ways to distance themselves from the rebellious Jews, by moving away from distinctly Jewish practices, such as observing the seventh-day Sabbath and the Hebrew feast days. As Christianity became more acceptible to the prevailing culture, peaceful relationships with the Roman pagans became a priority, so that the pagans would more easily accept Christianity. It took several hundred years to bring coalescense around certain non-Torah doctrines.
The Christians had, by the third and fourth centuries AD, begun taking on the days and some of the ways of the pagan religions around them. This was to avoid the persecuting of Christians by the Romans. By this time, most Christians were clearly distinct and separated from the Jews and Jewish observances.
Jesus taught His religious principles here on earth. But it was always within the context of the religion He established at Mt. Sinai. Thus the New Testament is a further unfolding of what is taught in the Old Testament. Jesus and His religion of the New Testament conveys the same religious principles as Jehovah and His religion of the Old Testament. The only thing that ended at the cross was the animal sacrificial system. Now we focus on Christ, our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, not animal sacrifices offered by Levitical priests in the earthly temple.
Replacement theology is a big doctrinal mistake. Romans 11 clearly teaches that the Gentile Christians were to be “grafted in among them.” The primary religion (the olive tree) is what Jehovah gave to Moses; those who accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah were to be grafted in to that primary religion. Those who rejected Jesus as the Messiah fell away from the olive tree. Those who rejected Torah were never part of the olive tree in the first place.
Mark Edwards in his treatise on Martin Luther, “Apocalypticism Explained,” makes plain that the Catholic Church in Luther’s day had teachings which strayed far away from the clear intent of Scripture in terms of how salvation is attained. He especially blamed the papacy as having perpetrated the errors of such things as indulgences, and other means, to lead the people to believe that they could, with works, help themselves attain to salvation.
Grace does not negate obedience to God’s law. Rather, grace makes obedience to God’s law possible, for God’s grace supplies the power and motivation for humans to incorporate righteousness (“right doing”) into their lives. As sinners, we do not have the power to keep God’s law in our own strength. It is only Christ’s righteousness that qualifies us for salvation. But then Christ says, “Come and follow me.” We are to be His disciples, living in obedience to the law, as He did, through the power of the Holy Spirit, Christ’s Vicar on earth.
Luther’s message was clear: You can’t do anything to help your own salvation (justification). The principles behind the law: caring, sharing, and love cannot be lived unless one understands Christ’s Law, spoken from Mt. Sinai and again by Christ during His Sermon on the Mount using positive and emotional language. This is the only Holy Law of God that ever existed. If we do not honor God’s law, and live it in our lives through the power of the Holy Spirit, we will never be fit to live in heaven.
Luther, according to Mark’s treatise, considered the papacy the home of anti-Christ because the papacy had, in his thinking, usurped God by claiming to have all power on earth in religious and spiritual matters. In John 14-16 Jesus clearly assigned the Holy Spirit the role of being Christ’s representative (Vicar) on earth. For a human to claim that title is “against Christ” for it opposes the words of Christ Himself.
Blessings of Yeshua as we all learn of His love for us, and consequently His ways.
Ron
The Roman Catholic Church did not “preserve” the Bible. It did not formulate the Bible.
God did not set the human Church with all “authority in Heaven and on earth.” Jesus, the Messiah (Ha Maschiach) set up His Church, and He alone is it’s Head. He is God the Son, just as He was when He spoke the Law to Moses and wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger on two tables of stone.
The first Christians were, as I said earlier, Torah-observant Jews. They did not call themselves “catholic” in any sense of that word. It was these Torah-observant Jews who “preserved” the words and books of the Bible. For the first 50 years after Pentecost, the non-ethnic converts to Judeo-Christianity were a minority, and worshipped in the synagogues with the Torah-observant, and some rabbinical Jews. They kept the same days and many of the same ways as did the Torah-observant Jews. They observed the weekly Shabbat (seventh-day of the week), plus all of the other sabbaths and annual feast days, but without animal sacrifices or Temple services with the priesthood. They kept Christ front and center in their worship services.
The latin word, “catholic” began to be used in some circles some 200 years after Christ’s ascension and Pentecost (or Shavuot, as it had always been called in Hebrew). In 135 AD the Roman Empire began heavily persecuting Jews who had rebelled against Roman rule in the Bar Kochba rebellion of 132-135 AD. Because the Judeo-Christians observed all things that Christ, who was a blood-Jew, had commanded them, the Christians were persecuted along with the Jews because the Romans could not tell them apart based on days and ways of observance.
That is when the Christians began to look for ways to distance themselves from the rebellious Jews, by moving away from distinctly Jewish practices, such as observing the seventh-day Sabbath and the Hebrew feast days. As Christianity became more acceptible to the prevailing culture, peaceful relationships with the Roman pagans became a priority, so that the pagans would more easily accept Christianity. It took several hundred years to bring coalescense around certain non-Torah doctrines.
The Christians had, by the third and fourth centuries AD, begun taking on the days and some of the ways of the pagan religions around them. This was to avoid the persecuting of Christians by the Romans. By this time, most Christians were clearly distinct and separated from the Jews and Jewish observances.
Jesus taught His religious principles here on earth. But it was always within the context of the religion He established at Mt. Sinai. Thus the New Testament is a further unfolding of what is taught in the Old Testament. Jesus and His religion of the New Testament conveys the same religious principles as Jehovah and His religion of the Old Testament. The only thing that ended at the cross was the animal sacrificial system. Now we focus on Christ, our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, not animal sacrifices offered by Levitical priests in the earthly temple.
Replacement theology is a big doctrinal mistake. Romans 11 clearly teaches that the Gentile Christians were to be “grafted in among them.” The primary religion (the olive tree) is what Jehovah gave to Moses; those who accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah were to be grafted in to that primary religion. Those who rejected Jesus as the Messiah fell away from the olive tree. Those who rejected Torah were never part of the olive tree in the first place.
Mark Edwards in his treatise on Martin Luther, “Apocalypticism Explained,” makes plain that the Catholic Church in Luther’s day had teachings which strayed far away from the clear intent of Scripture in terms of how salvation is attained. He especially blamed the papacy as having perpetrated the errors of such things as indulgences, and other means, to lead the people to believe that they could, with works, help themselves attain to salvation.
Grace does not negate obedience to God’s law. Rather, grace makes obedience to God’s law possible, for God’s grace supplies the power and motivation for humans to incorporate righteousness (“right doing”) into their lives. As sinners, we do not have the power to keep God’s law in our own strength. It is only Christ’s righteousness that qualifies us for salvation. But then Christ says, “Come and follow me.” We are to be His disciples, living in obedience to the law, as He did, through the power of the Holy Spirit, Christ’s Vicar on earth.
Luther’s message was clear: You can’t do anything to help your own salvation (justification). The principles behind the law: caring, sharing, and love cannot be lived unless one understands Christ’s Law, spoken from Mt. Sinai and again by Christ during His Sermon on the Mount using positive and emotional language. This is the only Holy Law of God that ever existed. If we do not honor God’s law, and live it in our lives through the power of the Holy Spirit, we will never be fit to live in heaven.
Luther, according to Mark’s treatise, considered the papacy the home of anti-Christ because the papacy had, in his thinking, usurped God by claiming to have all power on earth in religious and spiritual matters. In John 14-16 Jesus clearly assigned the Holy Spirit the role of being Christ’s representative (Vicar) on earth. For a human to claim that title is “against Christ” for it opposes the words of Christ Himself.
Blessings of Yeshua as we all learn of His love for us, and consequently His ways.
Ron
P
Protestant101
Guest
Good post Ron - Jehovah-Jireh has provided His Church with His Son to be the visible Church’s Head. (Chief Cornerstone).
As you said, neither the Roman Catholic Church, nor any other Church has “preserved” or “written” the Bible in any sense. It was discovered via various manuscripts, by various people, and not being limited to any one group. When we read in the Bible how that God made the Church to be the pillar of His Truth; He did not intend it as in the preserving sense; but in the sense of disseminating. It is this that I feel the Catholic Church has not done.
G
greggy53
Guest
This is news to me. You need to explain what the differences we have when we say Bible. Other than the books the Protestants removed of course.
I cna think of one doctrine from the Bible that the Christians have always interpreted differnetly that what the Protestants came up with. The Holy Eurcharist.
S
SteveVH
Guest
To interpret something requires a brain and some semblance of intelligence. The written word cannot interpret anything, but must be interpreted. I find it amazing that some must
change the very meaning of words in order to make their point. A book cannot interpret itself any more than a rock can interpret itself. That is called anthropomorphism; attributing human charactaristics to non-human things. This is a silly exercise if the process of communication breaks down because one chooses to ignore the common meaning of words and change that meaning to suit one’s purposes. The sky is blue. No the sky is red. Just look at it, its blue. No, that is what we call red… Catch my drift?
S
SteveVH
Guest
Amazing! The Catholic Church, the only Christian Church in existence for 1500 years (that includes the Eastern Rite) has some major historical misunderstandings? This is much like you telling me that I’ve got the events in my own life all wrong, that you know better. The Catholic Church lived this history and it is well documented. You approach this question with preconceived notions of what you want history to say, rather than exploring the truth.
Have you ever read what was decided at the Councils of Rome, Hippo and Carthage? I think it is you who should revisit history. The canon of the Bible, as a conglomeration of inspired writings, was decided by the Catholic Church at these Councils and again affirmed at the Council of Trent. It is a Catholic document. No, it did not write it, it rather determined that the books which were included were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
I think you mean they preserved the Old Testament, which at the time of Christ would have been the Septuagint. The fact that you claim to be Protestant means that you reject what the Jews at that time had “preserved”, by accepting the removal of seven books from the Old Testatment still contained in the Catholic Bible. Obviously the books contained in the New Testament, some of which were not written until the end of the first century, would not have been “preserved” by the Jews. These writings, chosen from among many, were determined to be inspired by the Catholic councils.
The Christians were persecuted for being Christians, not because they couldn’t tell them apart from the Jews. They were persecuted because they would not worship the Roman Emperor. Please.
You have obviously chosen to take the rantings of anti-Catholic “historians” at face value. While I am tempted to address the rest of your post, I think it would be better for you to start another thread in order to discuss these issues. We are getting way off the path here and I don’t want to derail the topic of this thread any more than we already have.
S
SteveVH
Guest
Then please explain to me, of the various people you say discovered the writings who, according to you, were not limited to one group, who then gave to the world the Bible as we know it today and when was that done? I’ll be waiting.
R
RonTheNewJew
Guest
You are saying, in effect, what Protestants, and some Jews have been saying for a long time: that the Bishop of Rome in the councils decided (and, as we Protestants have been saying for a long time now, with no authority from God, to decide what is to be included in the Bible and what was not to be included. The Origen-originated interpretations is what I mean. Not the Received texts, which were discovered later, but predated what was done at Alexandria by some lengthy time.
But, laying that aside, what are you saying? That the Jews were Catholics? Excuse me. But, not a chance. The Catholic Church, as an organization, did not exist when Peter was around on earth. The Apostles, Paul and John observed the “Jewish” (as some call them, though inaccurately) festivals and new moons and the Shabbat, long into the “Christian” era. They were Christians. John was one of Jesus’ disciples. The other Apostles used language that clearly indicated they kept God’s moedim, but without animal sacrifices and with Jesus at their center. Were they Roman Catholics??
When Jesus told His disciples to “do and teach all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” the only religious calendar that existed, which He gave at Mt. Sinai, was what He taught them to observe and keep when He observed them at Capernaum. That, Sir, is history. It is in the Bible. He never commanded anyone, nor passed on to the man he turned to and called “thou Satan,” that is, Peter when Peter didn’t want Jesus to go to Jerusalem and suffer, and told Jesus so, the idea of a rolling stone changing His Laws, Statutes and Judgements. The Gospel of His Love is contained in His Law, the Torah.
If we accept that Jesus has always existed, then we also accept that He, with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, gave the entire Covenant to Moses. When He came to earth, He set aside His divinity. But that did not mean that He was not the one Who came from His Father’s side to become the Lamb to be sacrificed for the sins of many. He meant what He said when He said “I and My Father are one.” Echad=unity.
You act as though Jesus was not one with His Father, and that He created a whole new religion for humanity. He did not do that. He merely expanded what the Jewish Church was too selfish to live by and give to the nations around them. By being selfish, the rabbi’s and priests, the scribes and pharisees, etc., did not practice the Law contained in Torah. They were liars. Selfishness and claiming superiority because one claims to have been given the Torah and is somehow to be held above others because of it, is breaking God’s Law. It is also unloving, uncaring and selfish.
The words, “church” and “synagogue” have essentially the same meanings, as relates to places of praise, celebration and worship. That has always been true. If the Torah observant Jews, before the birth on earth of God the Son; Jesus, believed that the animal sacrifices pointed toward the coming of Messiah to earth, then they were, by definition, Christians.
But, laying that aside, what are you saying? That the Jews were Catholics? Excuse me. But, not a chance. The Catholic Church, as an organization, did not exist when Peter was around on earth. The Apostles, Paul and John observed the “Jewish” (as some call them, though inaccurately) festivals and new moons and the Shabbat, long into the “Christian” era. They were Christians. John was one of Jesus’ disciples. The other Apostles used language that clearly indicated they kept God’s moedim, but without animal sacrifices and with Jesus at their center. Were they Roman Catholics??
When Jesus told His disciples to “do and teach all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” the only religious calendar that existed, which He gave at Mt. Sinai, was what He taught them to observe and keep when He observed them at Capernaum. That, Sir, is history. It is in the Bible. He never commanded anyone, nor passed on to the man he turned to and called “thou Satan,” that is, Peter when Peter didn’t want Jesus to go to Jerusalem and suffer, and told Jesus so, the idea of a rolling stone changing His Laws, Statutes and Judgements. The Gospel of His Love is contained in His Law, the Torah.
If we accept that Jesus has always existed, then we also accept that He, with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, gave the entire Covenant to Moses. When He came to earth, He set aside His divinity. But that did not mean that He was not the one Who came from His Father’s side to become the Lamb to be sacrificed for the sins of many. He meant what He said when He said “I and My Father are one.” Echad=unity.
You act as though Jesus was not one with His Father, and that He created a whole new religion for humanity. He did not do that. He merely expanded what the Jewish Church was too selfish to live by and give to the nations around them. By being selfish, the rabbi’s and priests, the scribes and pharisees, etc., did not practice the Law contained in Torah. They were liars. Selfishness and claiming superiority because one claims to have been given the Torah and is somehow to be held above others because of it, is breaking God’s Law. It is also unloving, uncaring and selfish.
The words, “church” and “synagogue” have essentially the same meanings, as relates to places of praise, celebration and worship. That has always been true. If the Torah observant Jews, before the birth on earth of God the Son; Jesus, believed that the animal sacrifices pointed toward the coming of Messiah to earth, then they were, by definition, Christians.
S
SteveVH
Guest
You make it very difficult to answer your posts due to their size. We are limited to 6000 words which means that I have no room in which to give an adequate answer. I’ll do my best.
Are you saying the New Testament is unnecessary?
That is not what I am saying. Christ promised the Holy Spirit to the Church to guide it “in all things”. So yes, the Catholic Church’s authority comes from God, especially since Jesus is the Head of the Church. If the Church had no authority, then neither can you have any confidence that the books chosen to be included in the canon are inspired texts.
That is exactly what I am saying. They were Catholics, regardles of whether that name was in use. It is the same Church and we can prove an unbroken line of succession from Peter (a Jew) our first Pope to our current Pope, Benedict XVI. And, because Peter was the Bishop of Rome, yes they were Roman Catholics, although no distinction would have been drawn because no schism had yet taken place. There was one Christian Church and history proves that it was the Catholic Church. Christianity is the fulfillment of Judasim. The Christian Jews were no longer subject to the laws found in the Torah. They now were subject to the “New Covenant”.
What?
Are you saying the New Testament is unnecessary?God revealed Himself slowy to mankind, beginning with the Jews. Of course I believe Jesus was present wherever and whenever God was present. I have not “acted as though Jesus was not one with His Father” nor have I said anything remotely indicating this. Jesus, being the fulfillment of Old Testament prophesies, after the Jews had broken every covenant they had with God, gave us the “New Covenant”. He did not do away with the law, but rather fulfilled it so that we were no longer subject to it. We had now attained the status of the “Bride of Christ”, an intimacy with God (by being part of his Church, the Bride) that had never been known before.
R
RonTheNewJew
Guest
The New Covenant clearly involves the law of God: “After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.” (Jereh. 31:33).
The New Covenant includes the keeping of the statutes and judgments: “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you. . . .And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” (Ezek. 36:26-27).
Jesus very plainly stated that He did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.” (Matt. 5:17-18). People stumble on the word “fulfilled” which they think means “done away with.” The Greek word is “pleroo” which means “to fill to the full” or to fill full of meaning. Jesus filled the law full of meaning, for now we understand that it is God’s law of love - how we are to love God and how we are to love our fellow men.
Paul also states, “Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.” (Rom. 7:12). What law is he speaking of? The law that says, “Thou shalt not covet.” (Rom. 7:7). Paul also says, “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.” (Rom. 6:1-2).
“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. . . . Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, various emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkeness, revilings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Gal. 5:16-21).
Only Jesus Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit can transform our lives so that we stand in right relationship with the law of God. This is a two-part process: justification (forgiveness) and sanctification (Christian growth). It is not the law of God that must be set aside. Rather, it is the power of sin (disobedience to God’s law) that must be broken. Sin must lose its grip on us.
Note Jesus’ own words: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast our devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matt. 7:21-23).
“Whosoever committeth sin transgtresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” (1 John 3:4). Iniquity is sin, the breaking of God’s law. We are justified by Christ’s righteousness as we take Him as our Saviour and Lord. Then our transformed lives, living according to God’s law, give testimony that we are saved. Those who keep sinning and think that sinning is OK, show that they are not saved. Jesus does not save us in our sins, but from our sins. “And the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7).
Jesus’ last instructions to His disciples included: “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” (John 14:15). How will this be accomplished? “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever.” (John 14:16). Through the power of the Holy Spirit we become overcomers and put away sin - we keep God’s law.
“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).
“If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matt. 19:17).
The Holy Spirit will not teach anything to us privately that is in conflict with what the Holy Spirit inspired to be written in the Scriptures. God’s law remains the objective standard by which we will be judged. “For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.” (1 Corinth. 11:31). If we would compare our lives to God’s law, judging our conduct by that holy standard, we would see our need of Christ and the Holy Spirit to be overcomers. If we refuse to judge ourselves by God’s holy law, then we will be judged (negatively) by Jesus Christ “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” (Rev. 19:11). “Here is the patience of the saints, here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus.” (Revelation 14:12). Soon the time will come when “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy let him be holy still.” (Rev. 22:11). At that point, probation will close for all humanity. Those who are righteous and holy - those who keep the commandments of God through the power of the Holy Spirit - will be granted entrance into Christ’s eternal kingdom; and those who persisted in disobedience to God’s law will be eternally destroyed. The punishing will not be eternal, but the results will be eternal.
“Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give to every man according as his work shall be.” (Rev. 22:12). We are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ, but we are judged according to our works. Jesus has done everything He possibly can that we might be saved. But He cannot admit into His kingdom those who are rebellious against God and refuse to live according to God’s holy law.
Maranatha - come quickly Lord Jesus!
The New Covenant includes the keeping of the statutes and judgments: “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you. . . .And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” (Ezek. 36:26-27).
Jesus very plainly stated that He did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.” (Matt. 5:17-18). People stumble on the word “fulfilled” which they think means “done away with.” The Greek word is “pleroo” which means “to fill to the full” or to fill full of meaning. Jesus filled the law full of meaning, for now we understand that it is God’s law of love - how we are to love God and how we are to love our fellow men.
Paul also states, “Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.” (Rom. 7:12). What law is he speaking of? The law that says, “Thou shalt not covet.” (Rom. 7:7). Paul also says, “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.” (Rom. 6:1-2).
“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. . . . Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, various emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkeness, revilings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Gal. 5:16-21).
Only Jesus Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit can transform our lives so that we stand in right relationship with the law of God. This is a two-part process: justification (forgiveness) and sanctification (Christian growth). It is not the law of God that must be set aside. Rather, it is the power of sin (disobedience to God’s law) that must be broken. Sin must lose its grip on us.
Note Jesus’ own words: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast our devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matt. 7:21-23).
“Whosoever committeth sin transgtresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” (1 John 3:4). Iniquity is sin, the breaking of God’s law. We are justified by Christ’s righteousness as we take Him as our Saviour and Lord. Then our transformed lives, living according to God’s law, give testimony that we are saved. Those who keep sinning and think that sinning is OK, show that they are not saved. Jesus does not save us in our sins, but from our sins. “And the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7).
Jesus’ last instructions to His disciples included: “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” (John 14:15). How will this be accomplished? “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever.” (John 14:16). Through the power of the Holy Spirit we become overcomers and put away sin - we keep God’s law.
“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).
“If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matt. 19:17).
The Holy Spirit will not teach anything to us privately that is in conflict with what the Holy Spirit inspired to be written in the Scriptures. God’s law remains the objective standard by which we will be judged. “For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.” (1 Corinth. 11:31). If we would compare our lives to God’s law, judging our conduct by that holy standard, we would see our need of Christ and the Holy Spirit to be overcomers. If we refuse to judge ourselves by God’s holy law, then we will be judged (negatively) by Jesus Christ “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” (Rev. 19:11). “Here is the patience of the saints, here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus.” (Revelation 14:12). Soon the time will come when “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy let him be holy still.” (Rev. 22:11). At that point, probation will close for all humanity. Those who are righteous and holy - those who keep the commandments of God through the power of the Holy Spirit - will be granted entrance into Christ’s eternal kingdom; and those who persisted in disobedience to God’s law will be eternally destroyed. The punishing will not be eternal, but the results will be eternal.
“Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give to every man according as his work shall be.” (Rev. 22:12). We are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ, but we are judged according to our works. Jesus has done everything He possibly can that we might be saved. But He cannot admit into His kingdom those who are rebellious against God and refuse to live according to God’s holy law.
Maranatha - come quickly Lord Jesus!
J
Javl
Guest
Shalom Ron The New Jew:
Might I suggest you go to the following link for further information. Thank you and God Bless. hebrewcatholic.org
PAX DOMINI
Shalom haMeshiach
J
Javl
Guest
The following link may be of interest to you, and Ron The Jew both:
www.thecatholictreasurechest.com/canon.htm
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
- Status